If so, why doesn't the BATFE make themselves useful and start prosecuting these folks?

I'm all for free market principles, but these folks standing in line at WalMart, waiting on an ammo shipment in order to resale is quite unseemly in my opinion.

If the state determines they are "in the business" of buying/selling without a proper business license, there is any issue. A one-time deal is no issue, but I've seen people who constantly buy and sell autos for profit (in private sales) get into trouble. I don't believe you need a FFL to sell ammo, just firearms. But hey, it someone wants to buy "resold" ammo, well--stupid is as stupid does.

There is no federal requirement of any license to sell ammunition loaded by others.

I am glad, but surprised to hear that.

I am also happy to know that enterprising individuals are investing in ammo that is priced too cheaply and selling it to greedy panic buyers and hoarders.

Capitalism my friend.

Nothing new about this. I remember twenty five or more years ago
when many of the tables at gun shows were occupied by self styled
wheeler-dealers without FFLs trying to make a few bucks on weekends.
Those guys depended on the "average joe" coming to shows having
even less knowledge about guns and ammo than they did. Local K-mart
stores used to sell 22 ammo at very low prices when on sale and these
sharpies would stock up and resell it at guns shows with the K-mart
stickers still on many of the boxes. Buyer beware.

I would be careful about selling ammo to anyone in NY state. They have some crazy screwed up laws, but other than that, sellin factory ammo is no problem. Selling reloads, is another matter, as you would then be a manufacturer of ammo. You need a license for that. Also ammo that is shipped must be through UPS or FED EX. The post office wont take it.

jonesy said it. Manufacturing ammunition for sale requires a license, reselling commercially manufactured ammunition is no different than reselling anything else "garage sale" style.

Sure, lets get the BATFE involved in MORE.

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Big Fred

Let us NOT give the folks in DC any more ideas. I would comment further on the basically Liberal attitude intrinsic in your statement but that would stray into Politics, which is banned. Think about it, you are seeing free enterprise at work.

I do agree however that ammo prices are getting to Stupid High levels. In order to address that I think that we need to inform all these new firearms owners that paying these prices makes them look like fools. This is especially true of any fool engaging in hoarding today, the time to stock up was after that initial panic in 2008.

Let's work on Straw Purchase's,Face to Face sale's, and the Gun Show loop Hole. These will help protect our firearm rights. People buying and selling ammo is the least of our problems.

And let's stop propagating and buying into the anti's framing phrases like "Gun Show loop Hole". The issue is personal sale rights (LIKE the ammo discussion). Never retreat this easily.

Thinking it is a state to state issue- NJ has screwed up laws about purchase of handgun ammo requiring a NJ firearms ID card issued by NJSP- rifle and shotgun ammo do not require the card- go figure

You assume that those of us standing in line to purchase ammo are going to resell it. Not true. I've been standing in those lines and many are folks who just purchased their first gun. They need ammo. Myself, well I got caught with a short supply of the ammo in 9mm and 45acp which are the two calibers I shoot the most. So I'm forced to stand in line and wait and hope someone gets ammo in at a price I'm willing to pay. So far I've been very lucky with regards to 9mm,223/556 and 22lr. Its the 45acp that I'm still short on but don't worry I'll be standing in line tomorrow morning in hopes of finding some 45acp that I can afford to put on the shelf.

Ammo is the new Milk. Instead of ot being the occasional purchase its now a weekly purchase

Thank you for setting me straight, guys. Upon further searching, it is illegal to manufacture (read sell reloads) without an FFL, but you don't need one to sell commercially manufactured ammo.

Perhaps the IRS could make some of these guys sweat. It isn't easy getting new people into the shooting sports when ammo isn't to be found.

Sir, I am not referring to people purchasing ammo for their own use, nor am I assuming anything. I see the same guys asking astronomical prices on local classified sites for newly purchased ammo day after day. Those are the people I'm referring to.

I am glad to see people preparing themselves. I am not glad to see jerks taking advantage of them.

I just msde $2, 500 selling ak ammo.

In Utah you can sell ammo all day long and there is a free website to move your ammo for folks living in Utah.

PM me if you live in Utah and want to buy sell or trade ammo.

Russ

Yep. No new gun laws, period.

. Are you really?
If so I don't know how the second half of your statement squares with that.


If you can't get ammo or can't get ammo at a marketable price from your jobber, or wholesaler then what in the world is wrong with going to a source that is more reasonable. If you are in the business it isn't free to go to Walmart and wait in line to get a few boxes for retail. It certainly isn't as cost effective as calling your wholesaler and having 50,000 rounds of ammo delivered to your door, if they aren't jacking their prices up. Buying cheap and selling high is the key to business. If the customer is buying at a price they think is "reasonable" then who cares where it comes from as long as the ammo in the boxes isn't counterfeit or stolen. A customer who buys ammo with a Walmart retail sticker at a gun show either is blind or has made the decision to buy the ammo they have in their hand rather than gamble on finding it at Walmart. As for the retailer who fails to remove old stickers, they are just running the risk of missing the sale, but then there is the guy standing behind them that will probably not care.

The only one issue I have is the wholesaler who is also a retailer and sales to their retail customers at prices that undercut their dealers. I don't want some government to tell the wholesaler they can't do that. I just don't do business with them or at least not on items they choose to sell unfairly.

Saying you are all for free markets doesn't make it so!

Personally, I liken it to purchasing tickets to the "big game" or "hot concert". You always have someone who has purchased tickets who have no intention of actually using them, except to resell them for a profit. Not illegal, per se, but not necessarily on the high road of business deals.

Unlike tickets, the expiration date on the ammo shortage is an unknown. At some point, these jokers are going to buy a cartload of ammo they probably don't even have a weapon for and are going to get stuck with it.

"Reaping and sowing"

Yep, let's sic the federal government on people doing something we don't like. Because there is NO chance that in the future someone might decide it's a good idea to sic the federal government on US because we're doing something they don't like.

I'll just say that this is one of the worst ideas I've ever read on any forum.

I'd say more, but I don't want to run afoul of the moderators.

There is NO "Gun Show Loophole". Selling "face to face" is part of private ownership of property. Many good people have died for you to have this right.

You need a license to manufacture and sell reloads, but not an FFL. An FFL is needed if you are going to engage in the buying and selling of firearms for profit, has nothing to do with ammo on a federal level. Various states, local jurisdictions have "laws" pertaining to sale of ammo ( factory or reloaded ), most do not have any rhyme or reason. That being said: Certain ammo ( Pink Puffers) are regulated by certain jurisdictions/counties in some states, be aware that sending ammo to a prohibited state can and has gotten people arrested. Always check state then local laws to protect yourself. I have seen buyers of the above ammo say that it was legal, when upon further research their county lists it specifically as prohibited. Be Safe.

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I BACK OUR BLUE

Are you saying you want the government, via the IRS, to harass people for selling ammo?

I have a better idea; have the government tax stupid people for not having essentials on hand, and then wanting the government to get involved and take care of them.

Oh, and ammo can be found easily, and almost everywhere. If you are looking for this year's ammo at last year's prices, you are SOL because stupid, greedy people are hoarding it.

Probably what bothers me more is how the shooting sport has gotten so pedestrian that would be marksmen come to the range, with the latest fad in guns, dressed on camo, posts a full sized zombie target at three yards and proceeds to spray 300 rounds of ever precious ammo as rapidly as they can shove another of their preloaded magazine into the magazine well, never once hitting the large fluorescent bull. These folks aren't furthering the sport and they are inflating the cost of ammo due to their gluttonous presuit of action. Now, do I want them regulated out of the sport? Definitely not! I do hope that they finally regulate themselves out by realizing that they are spending a fortune on ammo and the latest wonder gun only to find that they can't "kill" the zombies like they do on their PSII or XBOX. I hope I can outlast the craze because as soon as these would bees prefect their "art" of jamming magazines in their guns and sending bullets flying down range they come in with their camo clad girlfriends to "teach" them how to burn ammo.

Well it is the free market idea, buy low-sell high. Just like the stock market, nobody lost ever money there did they? I just can't believe there are that many desperate people out there.

I would say they are not desperate, but rather stupid, foolish, and greedy and want the "price police" to protect them.

The part of the NY's "Safe Act" that says ammo has to go through an FFL is NOT in effect yet. Please don't put any more stipulations on us New Yorkers. There is a real chance it will never go into effect. If you don't know for sure please don't spread rumors.

Len

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Endeavor to persevere

Straw Purchases as defined by federal law is illegal. Face to face (casual sales) are not. Furthermore "gun show loop holes" is a made up red herring.
The Columbine massacre proved that the Feds are not concerned with prosecuting straw purchases even when related to a mass homicide.

Are these people paying income tax on the gains made by these ammo sales? All I'm saying is that I would like to see people representing gun owners obeying the law, and preferably setting a good example in front of people who may be on the fence about gun ownership.

I have plenty of ammo. It just sickens me to see people taking advantage of others' fears. It certainly doesn't shed a positive image on gun people in general.

If you occasionally sell a gun or box of ammo for a profit, you will not be on anyone’s radar. At some point in volume, the federal, state, and local people will get interested. When one get interested, the others will follow. Then your life can be hell. The state and local will get you for operating without a license and state and local taxes. The BATFE and the IRS are unrelenting. I have known a couple of individuals charged with unlicensed businesses and unpaid taxes on profits. The shark feeding frenzy was incredible.

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U.S. Navy - U.S. Army, ret

You have hit upon what is really annoying me. I don't see a problem with someone occasionally trading. What I'm seeing are guys who seem to be attempting to make a living reselling ammunition. It isn't fair to my local gun dealer, who pays taxes, insurance, business license, FFL, owns a business front, etc., in order to try and do business the right way. Because of these clowns, and the fear they've perpetuated, he can't get any sizeable inventory to sell.

What sort of mess are we going to have on our hands when this same phenomonen takes over regarding gasoline, medicine, or food?

LOLOL...realizing you cannot get batf involved...you now want to put the irs on em??LOLOL!
who pays for this investigation on the guy making a couple bucks on .22 ammo?

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SWCA#2208
KK4EMO

The good news is there are not enough government agents to catch all of them. The bad news is there are not enough government agents to catch all of them.

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U.S. Navy - U.S. Army, ret

This site needs a "face-palm" icon.

Robyn Anderson bought three of the four guns used at Columbine from individuals. Because they were not purchased from a dealer, the transfer was not a "straw purchase" under Federal law.

She denied any knowledge of what Klebold and Harris had planned. There was no proof to the contrary.

I understand what you are saying as the same thing happens here. Some guys line up at Wal Mart at 5 am and buy any and all ammo they can. Now what they do with it I don't now but will bet they are selling it.There is no law against it. There is price gouging laws in place during disasters for gas and food and such but not ammo, you can sell it for whatever the market bares. Some body but a set of Lee 9 mm dies on line for $130 or something. They were in stock at Midway or somewhere for regular price of $30.

I see the same thing at my LGS were a few guys buy lots and lots of guns of all kinds, it's BS that it's for their own collection as I know that they set up tables at every Gun Show and re sell them for a profit. Some claim this is an individual sale. I call it an un licensed business with no FFL, insurance, building, bound book etc etc. This is what I believe they call the "loop hole". If you and I occasionally sell a gun no big deal but sorry these other guys are running an unlicensed business, I do not give a damn about the sale to a resident is legal, yes it is but not a full time basis. But this is JMO others see it different which is fine.

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Still Running Against the Wind

Are, you also concerned about the guy who comes out and paints your house, uncloggs your drain, mows your yard or works on your air conditioner? How do you know if they pay taxes? How many of those people have offered you a sizable discount if you pay in cash. If they offer, do you take the discount and pay in cash which makes it easier for them to evade taxes? There is a huge underground economy in this country because of our tax code but I bet most don't give it a second thought, however let some sap try to make a few bucks off resaling bargin basement ammo at premium prices and we get our panties in a wad and want the IRS to conduct an audit.

They can do as a private business until they draw enough attention to themselves to make it worthwhile for agencies to take notice, then they will probably be told to either shut down or get proper licensing by the ATF and local business laws. It would probably take an awful lot of 'trafficking' to get anybody's attention.

Agreed.

Instead of complaining about the guy at Wal*Mart buying up all the ammo, if one wants ammo all one has to do is get there before him.

If one does not like the price of ammo one may choose to lay off the sport until prices drop. Which they will - as soon as those feeding the frenzy BACK OFF!

It amazes me that everyone here had to pass a class in junior high school that explains all of this. It is simply the law of supply and demand. It isn't about "Greed" or "Excessive Profit" or "Hoarding". It is the free market at work.
Yet there are a bunch of folks that through their own lack of preparedness are in a pickle and demand that "something must be done". Well, something is being done - these folks are being taught an object lesson in economics.
This ain't no dress rehearsal folks, it's a crash course in the game of life. Learn from it or get caught with your pants down again the next time this happens. And IT WILL happen again.

~ Alan

Complicity in a subsequent crime is not necessary.
The very act in itself and transfering firearms to juvinale was a federal crime.
If they could have proved that she knew their dastardly plan she would also have been guilty of conspiracy to commit murder.

And to think that over the years I've bought old guns for my collection. And later when I get a better example, I've bought a table at a gun show and sold the earlier gun. And very often those old 1930s guns like Magnums that originally sold a $60. retail I've sold for $5,000. Now I see the true light and I should have sold them for original retail to you guys! Worse, the K22s that were only $20 back then now sell for as much as $2,000.

And I'm even as bad as the guy who was crying up above in this thread. One night a week ago my wife needed to go to Walmart. It was 10:00 PM, but I'm retired and I can sleep in, so I do as I please. After my wife piked up her stuff, we headed over to sporting goods. Of course no one in the store had the key to the ammo cabinet. But the stock boys were dumping boxes of ammo on the floor behind the counter! And the one helpful kind of guy who was trying to cover the department said he can sell anything on the floor, but only 3 to a customer. So I bought my 3 boxes of .223. And I don't even own an AR! But the rush was on and I got mine. Brought them home with me, too. And not a gun to fire them in. So I wasted my $15.76. They sat around for a week, then I just up and gave them to my youngest son. Bet if he had a zombie shaped target, he'd shoot them at it!

Now you guys have made me feel awful. I'm going to have a good cry over it.

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Dick Burg

OP, may The Man enter your life for no good reason.

Emory

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Hard To Kill

Sure, couldn't agree more. Another Ruby Ridge and maybe a WACO. More BATFE involvement is not needed. I think with the bill's on the table in DC we will have more than enough involvement.

I agree with lets not be inviting the BATF into anything else,
as they could usually do a good job of "screwing up a one car
parade".

Chuck

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They hold no Quarter

Guess I'm pretty much alone on this. Thanks for sharing your opinions, guys. That's what I come here for; to learn.

And may innocent have died because of people that shouldn't have a firearm, received one from the face to face, straw purchase or Gun show loop hole.What right do we have as americans to purchase a gun face to face? We have the right to bear arms,but to meet someone behind a building to purchase a handgun probably because the buyer can own a gun and the seller stole the gun,that not a "right" It's real and it's a problem that needs to be corrected.

If, as you propose, that these "loopholes" are closed, just who do you think will comply? The honest and law abiding...PERIOD. The criminal will still get theirs somewhere. Remember proabition, how did that work out? How about illegal drugs, that's working quite well isn't it? It's nothing more than "feel good leglisation" and "we did something".

Use a little common sense and do a little thinking on this. Only HONEST, LAW ABIDING people will follow laws. It's always been this way.

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Big Fred

I prefer to buy as many guns as possible face to face because the Gubmint has absolutely no business knowing what I buy or sell.

Since it is already against the law to buy or sell stolen property, and for felons to own guns, and to commit murder, do you really think they would give a flying aff about not complying with a legal gun purchase?

BTW, there is NO GUN SHOW LOOP HOLE!!!!!!! All federal, state, and local laws apply at gun shows the same as at a gun shop or in a newspaper ad.

I will type slowly, THERE IS NO GUN SHOW LOOP HOLE!

It is my right to own and sell my own property as long as it is according to the law. I am now not permitted to make straw purchases, or sell, or transfer any of my guns to anyone I know to have a defect to their legally owning a firearm, to include juveniles (by federal definition), foreign aliens, felons, people under domestic restraining orders, a those adjudged mentally defective. As a responsible person I don't need proof of any of these defects, if I suspect they are so. A ban on "face to face" would hinder my passing my guns along to my children or grand children.
I think it is all an attempt to get a record of all legally owned guns so that over time gun confiscation can be implemented .