Heads Up everyone!!

I was ROing at a local match when the shooter had a squib with WWB 9mm. There was enough background noise I didn't pick up on the squib. Fortunately the stuck bullet prevented chambering the next round so no gun damage.

We took the slide and barrel off the grip frame so he could go to the safe area. The bullet turned out to be copper plated, not jacketed. The copper had rubbed off enough so it was obvious. I don't know what the muzzle velocity of the ammo is but copper-plating can't stand high velocity.

I'm not saying you shouldn't buy WWB but we all should be aware when using it!!

__________________
Bob.
SWCA 1821

Now you tell me after some 15,000 rounds. Thats facory ammo.

I've never heard of Winchester using copper plated 9mm bullets before. What is it that makes you believe the bullet was copper plated? Are you positive that this was an actual Winchester factory load and not some reloads that were placed in a WWB box (or claimed by the shooter to be "factory" loaded ammo)?

Well you've heard of it now, scooter! I highly resent your attitude toward my heads up. I really don't care what you've never heard of. I've been handloading for 25 yrs. and know what happened.

You may have hit upon something here...a vast left wing conspiracy to substitute inferior goods for real Winchester ammo!! I think you should start an investigation...go for it bunky.

__________________
Bob.
SWCA 1821

a huh huh, you said bunky.

Chuck

It may have been copper plated, but if it is, I doubt it was a factory round.

__________________
M&P .40, M&P 9c & Shield 45

I shoot WWB and WWB is FMJ not plated.

My post was meant to alert people to be aware when shooting since squibs can cause gun damage. I certainly didn't expect to elicit an emotional defense of WWB. I guess I've damaged people by suggesting bad ammo comes from Winchester.

And oh BTW, if you've never heard of something doesn't mean it didn't happen or doesn't exist. Before I posted I checked with several very active shooters...not CTG collectors...one said he had heard of similar incidents with WWB, another said vehemently "WWB is trash"!!

Sorry to upset your karmas....no more warnings by me.

What does CTG mean anyway????

__________________
Bob.
SWCA 1821

Thanks for the heads-up! Now everyone calm down. Sounds like some little man pants need to be pulled up..........

__________________
Go big or stay home

Hang around gun ranges long enough and you will see misfires and squibs with every brand, just more of them with the cheaper ones. We buy them because they are cheap.


All the WWB I've ever shot has been jacketed also and not plated.

Wow, just a big WOW.

__________________
CSM, U S Army(Ret) 1963-1990

I have shot many thousands of rounds of WWB in 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP. I've shot a lot of it against old harrow blades with the result that often the spent bullets are found lying on the ground in the vicinity of the harrow blade. The bullets that I have examined have had a copper jacket typical of the bullets used in such FMJ type loads. They are no different in appearance before firing or after impact than similar bullets used by other manufacturers. This is of course only my own experience with WWB ammo.

It may be that Winchester is now using plated bullets in their white box economy type ammunition. Rather than folks getting angry of giving offense to other, it would be the better part of wisdom to simply contact Winchester for an explanation. That would be more fruitful than needlessly disagreement.

__________________
<><

All ammunition companies make mistakes. This is photo of WWB set back 9mm's. High pressure much??


To the OP, did yours look like this Golden Sabre?

CTG?

hmm,

Call the Guards?
Cant take grilling?
Careful tread gingerly?

or on the barrel of some older revolvers it says .38 ctg, meaning
Cartridge.

hehe
Chuck

Thanks for the heads up. I have never seen any WWB that was plated, as opposed to jacketed. I am sure Winchester would shed light on this matter. Truthfully, I have my doubts that this was factory ammo if it was plated, rather than jacketed.

I recently shot 100 rounds of WWB 45 ACP. I noticed that it was extremely dirty. I don't think it was before. So maybe there has been a change?

__________________
Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

My Beretta Elite 9MM eats WWB and loves it. Fairly clean and accurate also.

__________________
Go big or stay home

Speer had a blurb in their reloading manual that they are now making jackets by a plating process. I believe that it is as thick and tough as traditional jacketed rather than the metal coating on what we know as 'plated' bullets. Perhaps other manufacturers are following suit. One advantage this process gives is that core/jacket separation is next to impossible. Speer shot a plated jacketed round against a steel edge and both halves of the bullet still had the jackets intact.

I'm not saying that this is what you came across at the range, just giving another heads up that bullet technology is marching on and may not be quite what we expect.

I seem to recall seeing something about Winchester having some QC issues about a year ago. I'm not sure if it was here or on another forum. It sticks in my mind, because right around the same time, I was the RO for my squad at a local steel match and had a shooter experience a squib while using white box. We didn't do a post mortum on the bullet so I can't comment. Remember, factory rounds are being assembled by machines. Every now and again, those machines fail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CTG_COLLECTOR
I've never heard of Winchester using copper plated 9mm bullets before. What is it that makes you believe the bullet was copper plated? Are you positive that this was an actual Winchester factory load and not some reloads that were placed in a WWB box (or claimed by the shooter to be "factory" loaded ammo)?

Bob, there's absolutely no reason to get upset nor is there any reason for you to get personal about it. I merely asked several questions to try and clarify some of your comments as to why you said that Winchester was using plated bullets, and you go on a personal attack against me. So, lets try this again.

Like I stated before, I have never seen any Win 9mm product that uses a copper plated bullet instead of the standard gilding metal jacket over a lead core (excluding their BEB range ammo and any frangible training ammo). And it seems that you are very adamant that this squib load that the shooter in question encountered was a copper plated (not gilding metal jacketed) bullet and that it was a Winchester WWB product. Am I correct so far?

You stated that on the squib bullet you could tell it was plated because enough of the copper plating had rubbed off. Okay, I'll take your word on it that it was actually a plated bullet.

Now comes the very specific questions:

How is it that you personally determined that the ammo being used by the shooter, and specifically the squib round itself, was in fact actual Winchester factory produced ammo/round?

Did you see the actual box that this squib round came from? Did you recover the actual empty case from this specific squib round? Was it a WIN headstamped case? Did you inspect the remaining ammo that the shooter was using that day and was each round using the same plated bullet and were all the cases headstamped the same? What bullet weight was it, 115, 124 or 147 grains?

In reality, the only way that you can be fairly sure that it was factory Winchester ammo is if you saw the shooter buy that ammo from the store and load it directly into that pistol at the range.

I have many doubts that what this shooter was using, and what you proclaim the ammo to be, was actual factory loaded Winchester USA brand (erroneously labeled by many as "WWB") ammo. And I highly doubt Winchester is loading copper plated bullets for any of their 9mm loads. But then I may be completely wrong.

I would definately like to see any actual factory Win USA 9mm load(s) that have actual copper plated bullets. So if anyone has any recently purchased Win USA 9mm ammo that actually DOES have such bullets, please feel free to post pics of the rounds, pulled bullets to verify that they're plated and the box it came from. Such photos will help prove/disprove whether Winchester has actually started using plated bullets instead of standard gilding metal jacketed bullets.

BTW, what has plated bullets have to do with a squib round anyway? Is ther some relationship between plated bullets and squibs? Just asking...

Folks, how many here have actually pulled the bullets on factory ammo recently? The box may say FMJ but what is actually in the casing may in fact be Plated. I've pulled the bullets on both 40 and 45 caliber Federal Champions that had sideways primers in them and in both cases the bullets were Plated. I'm not the least bit surprised that WWB is now using plated bullets, they are quite likely to be less expensive than traditional FMJ.

As for the velocity issues with plated bullets, that's dependent on the thickness of the plating. I've been running Berry's and HSM plated 40 caliber bullets at 960 fps without any issues at all with leading. I'm also running the 45 ACP at 840 FPS without any problems at all.

BTW, Centerfire Plated bullets are nothing like the Copper Washed 22 caliber bullets were are all so familiar with. The Plated bullets have a much thicker plating that can be up to 0.008 inch thick (Berry's heavy plate 500 Magnum) while the copper washed 22 caliber plated bullets have a coating so thin it can only be measured by visual and not micrometer. Basically, you can melt the lead out of a Federal Champion bullet and have an intact shell, you can't do the same with a copper washed Federal 22 LR bullet. The only real tipoff for these centerfire plated bullets is that the lead core is completely sealed with no area of exposed lead. As a result a fully assembled casing with plated bullets can look exactly like a fully assembled FMJ round.

Well, as we all know, squib rounds can be very dangerous if not caught. There have been many brands of ammo and many different calibers that people have experienced squib rounds with. Winchester does not stand alone. Thanks for the warning to be vigilant for potential squib rounds.

No, you were hoping for a universal condemnation of WWB ammo, weren't you.

Here is a WWB 9mm that failed to load. It's the only failure in my FS M&P 9 ever in over 1000 rounds. When I got it out it was intact, just had the damage shown where it caught going in the chamber. Pulled it apart and it had no powder in it at all.ImageUploadedByTapatalk1367925791.060095.jpg

Is it a plated or jacketed bullet? Any lead showing on the bottom?

__________________
C & L

Lead on bottom and it is plated. Just scrapes off with a pen knife.

BINGO!!! Thank you Rgoodwin for your post and pic. I should have known without a pic it didn't happen. So you see we have a CTG with no powder in it( not a squib since it never chambered) AND a plated bullet.

Plated bullets are pretty easy to identify since the plating will scrape off with any blunt instrument.

No one is trying to say all Winchester ammo is bad. What is happening is 24/7 operation in ammo factories trying to meet demand. Quality control may suffer.

A friend just paid a visit to Starline. They are running full out with 10 hour shifts and have a huge backlog of orders.

__________________
Bob.
SWCA 1821

Interesting that the plated bullet found its way into a box of jacketed bullet cartridges, and furthermore that that particular cartridge had no powder in it.

Since it didn't fire, the case should have been available for headstamp verification. I don't recall seeing that.

__________________
USAF, 69-92
Vietnam, 72-73

I bought 27 cases of WWB a few years back. I've had exactly one dud, don't know if primer was defective as it's been struck half a dozen times with no result. My usual poor photos show it is FMJ as all the rounds are (so far). Joe

__________________
Wisdom chases me; I'm faster

The description of the bullet in question states that there is exposed LEAD at the base. That is a description of an FMJ bullet, not a plated bullet. I've loaded enough to both types of bullets to know the difference. I also know that a QUALITY plated bullet will have a thick enough layer of copper that it won't scrape off easily. With the bullets that I've been using the best tool to get through the plating is a FILE, use a sharp knife or something similar and you'll have to put a fair bit of effort and may end up needing stitches. BTW, my preferred plated bullets are Berry's or Hunting Shack, both high quality bullets with a rather thick plating.

Scooter upon closer inspection I believe it is FMJ. Here's a better pic you should be able to enlarge. I stand corrected! But it still had no powder. Thanks Rich

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1367974525.507281.jpg
Here's the pic.

Certainly looks like it's FMJ. How about a picture of the base?

The primer in the photo in post #31 has never been struck by a firing pin.

BTW, the difference between an FMJ and plated is rather easy to see without closer inspection.
What an interesting and informative thread!!

__________________
USAF, 69-92
Vietnam, 72-73

Pic 31 failed to load. My only failure of any kind. It was hung pretty good. Had to pry it apart. This box of WWB came with my handgun and I finished the box but have not bought anymore. Have been able to score 900 rounds of Fed 115 gr at local Walmarts plus some Aguila 124 gr at a local store. I trust both of these.

The round in #31 never fired.

The primer was never hit.

It was not a squib, nor any other kind of ammo failure. Period.

Failure to feed is not an ammo failure in this case. It's a gun problem.

The primer has to be hit and fire for a squib to occur. There is no dent in that primer.

__________________
USAF, 69-92
Vietnam, 72-73

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make?? Did you get the part where he pulled the bullet and there was no powder? So it WOULD have been a squib if the brass had gotten in the chamber. Are you just being prissy for our enjoyment?

__________________
Bob.
SWCA 1821

Thank you S&Wlowegan! You got it right! Only thing in the chamber was the bullet. The cartridge caught on the chamber entrance and ripped the side of the cartridge. Slide could not close because it was bent just enough to prevent it. Pried the slide back with my knife. Pulled out the cartridge which was all still intact, just bent. Laid it in the palm of my hand to examine. Squeezed it out of curiosity and it came apart with ease. No powder.

Gentlemen, gentlemen......in a nut shell, Winchester, not unlike many manufactures,produces millions of rounds every year....the OP was unfortunate enough to come across some bad ones.....it happens..... we will get over it.
Fair enough?

Dunno...older I get the more I dwell on stuff...gotta think about it.

__________________
C & L

Hey Scooter, Speer's Gold Dots are Jacketed yet the base is not exposed lead. They call them "bonded jackets." Which if I read correctly is using an electrolysis process to bond the jacket to the bullet. Sounds identical to plating except for the thickness?

I am still trying to wrap my head around the idea that someone thinks plated bullets can cause squibs! Copper plating may separate but only if driven at velocities far faster than WWB (1150 fps) and I highly doubt jacket separation will cause the malfunction the OP related. Worst case scenario, the bullet separates enroute and sprays on the target.

Fair enough.....It's just that I've read perhaps 2 other treads with this exact theme and everyone seem to stress a little too much for something that by the law of averages is bound to occur......

With JHPs the exposed lead is in fact the hollowpoint. With FMJs the exposed lead is at the base. Plated bullets, including Speer's Total Metal Jacket (TMJ), have no exposed lead. The gilding metal is simply a cup. The lead is put into it and then it's all squeezed as the designer wishes. There has to be an opening somewhere. Plating totally encloses the lead. No opening.

Bonding is when gilding metal jacket material, commonly in high end hollowpoints, is fused or bonded to the lead to prevent separation of the jacket from the lead core. This is desirable in, among others, scenarios requiring barriers such as car windshields to be defeated without the bullet breaking up.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with squibs.

__________________
USAF, 69-92
Vietnam, 72-73

LOL...Just wait until you've been on this forum a decade. You'll see way more than "perhaps two other threads with this exact theme and everyone seems to stress a little too much..."

__________________
C & L

I've damn sure learned my lesson...never again will I try to share something I thought could help people out. It's not worth it to incite the pedantic prisses to come out of the woodwork. There's nothing more annoying to me than people who immediately assume I'm either stupid and/or don't know what I'm talking about.

My new Motto: "Never Again"!

__________________
Bob.
SWCA 1821

Never said nor implied anything about you and don't think you are stupid.

__________________
C & L

It wasn't you I was thinking of.

__________________
Bob.
SWCA 1821

Doesn't take much to get some guys panties in a bunch, does it?

Once again there's no need to get upset and no need to start calling people names. You're too quick to take offense and become defensive in your posts.

So far there is nothing that you've posted to make me believe that you actually know what you're talking about, especially in regards to your statement that the shooter's squib round was caused by a copper plated WWB load. I think that the other posters have so far acknowledged that WWB 9mm ammo is NOT copper plated and remains to be the standard gilding metal jacketed FMJ load.

Twice I have asked you to provide some information to us (me) as to how you determined that the squib round was actually a factory Winchester load. So far there has been no answer from you. From your silence on this matter, I can only presume that you were mistaken in your belief that the offending round was actually a factory Winchester product and you just don't want to admit that you were wrong. And to be completely honest about it, I look forward to you (or anyone for that matter) being able to provide factual info that the WWB ammo is truely being loaded with actual copper plated bullets (as opposed to standard GM jacket). This would be of interest to me.