FYI, I always remove my nose ring prior to going to the line. I get a better sight picture that way.
Eliza

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Eliza:)

Interesting thread.

However, since my Beretta M9, Colt 1911 9mm, 940, 3913, 6906, and 6946 all seem to eat the 124 grain Gold Dot (Standard and +P) like candy, I don't see myself changing to whatever the FBI changes to.

The Gold Dot's and Cor Bon DPX's have a good enough record. Marksmanship is what we should be concerned with.

*
If your nose ring is in the way, it's WAY too big, or you need help with your stance.

FWIW, if one is shooting enough, a 10 year service life is at best marginal with a lot of pistols. The Glocks in .40, like a lot of other platforms in that caliber, take a beating. They are also known for intermittent feeding issues and have had a long history of weird problems. Some people issued them have had great success, but some agencies have had really awful experiences. I'm not a fan of the caliber for a lot of reasons, but from what I have seen, the winning platform in .40 is the S&W M&P. If I were to go back into a uniformed LE setting for some reason, that pistol with a good RDS and a Surefire X300U would be my only real choice in .40.

Caliber wars are pretty silly - the best information available makes it pretty clear that any of the common service calibers (9/40/45ACP/357Sig) with good ammo perform about the same. Since 9mm is a lot cheaper in bulk for both ball and service ammo, and the platforms work better across a broader spectrum of shooters, more and more really savvy people are recommending it. I hear somewhat regularly reports from agencies that shoot a significant # of offenders, and those that use good 9mm ammo and train appropriately are very satisfied with it.

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NHI, 10-8.

Which Personally Owned Weapons are allowed these days?

Cause no one else is dumb enough to mandate a 12lb trigger. I was in the NYPD academy at the time they had Glock factory people at Rodmans Neck (NYPD's main firing range) trying to replicate the problem. Most of them agreed it had to do with "making it do something it wasn't designed to do" with the extra heavy triggers. It was about a year later, everyone went to the speer ammo.

Border patrol is under US Customs and Border Patrol (CBP) which also includes the guys stamping passports at the airports and border stations.

Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) is split into two parts, HSI and DRO. DRO is Detention and Removal Operations, and HSI is Homland Security Investigations.

The whole "9mm/40/45/357 Sig" are equal phrase is not entirely true. If one cherry picks the data, perhaps, choosing the best loads for the smaller rounds, and picking inferior rounds for the more powerful cartridges, and most importantly, throwing penetration out of the window and focusing purely on expansion.

Probably the greatest misinterpretation of the IWBA protocol is that 12 inches of test gel is just as good as anything up to and including 18 inches. The tests preferred 18 to 12, not the other way around, with many people worrying about the non existent over penetration potential at 18 inches, and cartridges failing to hit 12 desperately wanting to believe their load still qualified by the standards. Far to many pocket pistol shooters want to believe that .380, .32, .25. even .22 hollow points, and that "magic" over expanding super bullets that only punch around 11 or 10 1/2 inches are still great rounds. If you really want to look at the iWBA protocol, realize that if you were to grade penetration gel tests, 18 inches would be A+, and that 12 inches is D-. 12 inches isn't good penetration, it barely qualifies at all for official test purposes. Your 90 grain HP .380 that only dug in 11 inches didn't "penetrate well" it failed the test completely. It was the dunce that failed the class and got sent home.

Digging through ballistics tests, from various sources, official and independent alike, the problem plaguing 9mm and .38 special rounds still exists, in the fact that improved bullets still have a potential to under penetrate, and often times when they do qualify, it is at the very base low end spectrum of the scale, often times barely crawling over the 12 inch mark. Many of the vaunted "super bullets" that many shooters talk greatly about, namely those that expand violently and up to .80+ inch, and indeed work in perfect conditions and very shallow shots, often times fail in angle shots and through limbs and fail to penetrate deep enough. The people who brag about 9mm 115 grainers that expand up to .90 inch in gel tests are the same people who fail to mention the bullet was pulled 10 inches out of the block, and has serious liabilities in the real world.

When one compares bullets and loads that expand to around the same diameter, you will find discrepancy, mostly on weight. The 9mm 115 or 124 that expands out to .67 will often barely manage to tip over the 12 to 13 inch mark, whereas a controlled expansion .45 230 grain will often end up 15 to 18 inches in the block. Rough estimates, but take the time to do your own research, and let me hear. The base point is, yes, you may get a smaller caliber to expand just as broadly as a larger caliber, but no, the lighter bullets will punch no wear as deep, and will perform far, far, far worse against bones and skin, considering both momentum and sectional densities.

The .40, 45, and .357 Sig all can do more than the 9mm can, and to claim parity is dangerous. The 9mm was ditched because it will fail in extreme real life angle shots, and has failed in real life angle shots. Pistol rounds have been dug out of bodies mere inches away from internal organs, sometimes fractions of an inch away from killing effectiveness. To discard the difference of 3-4 inches of penetration could very well cause a failure to stop in many instances. The heavier round will punch deeper, and break bones and spines, instead of simply curling up to take a nap against them like a lighter bullet will.

Certainly this thread, which I'm surprised was resurrected from the dead, is filled with people who hate the FBI because they buried their beloved caliber back the late 80's. But 9mm's extreme proponents are as bad as any other calibers, and recite the same myths, and over exaggerate the effectiveness and advantages of their beloved caliber. "Its just as good, with less recoil", is not nearly true at all, completely ignoring that there are very real advantages to the heavier recoils of the larger rounds, also making grand assumptions that .40, .45, and .357 Sig are somehow impossible to control, compared to the easy shooting 9mm.

What seems to be a big idea here, and elsewhere, is that because a 115 9mm +p+ can do 1350 fps, it is automatically just as good as a 125 grain .357 magnum or Sig doing the same velocity, completely ignoring the 115's reputation to fragment and under penetrate, compared to the heavier 125, with better sectional density and sheer energy.

The truth is, the full power 147 grain is every bit superior to lighter 9mm bullets, as the 158 grain .38 specials were before, to lighter bullets, for pistol rounds need every bit of mass and sectional density to work correctly. But to do so would be to lose the super expansion, the higher velocity, and the hollow ideas that make the 9mm seem as good as the other calibers. Proponents of the lighter bullets still hold onto, and repeat passionately, the debunked junk science of the 20% 1970's style gel tests, temporary cavitation, and the pistol theory of light and fast.

Just as .45 ACP's worst proponents desperately wish to believe their caliber is an automatic one stop shot, so to the 9mm's truest believers wish to believe their caliber is just as effective as rounds far more capable than their own, refusing to accept that their advantage lies in lower recoil and capacity, at a cost.

Every person who can be called a caliber fanboy shares the same personality defect of having no problem with ignoring shortcomings and exaggerating or even inventing strengths, instead of simply accepting there are advantages and disadvantages to every caliber and many loads. The fanboyism in this thread enraged me enough to write all this giant post.

Glock 19, 21, 26, and 27.

SWAT guys who've been through the 1911 transition school can also pay $2K and wait two years for a POW version of the Springfield Armory SWAT 1911.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

I'm sorry, but that's a bit of a stretch. A quick glance at the product posters for Speer Gold Dot and Federal HST reveals otherwise.

Remember, we're comparing apples to apples within product lines, using the same bullet technology. Using the HST line as an example, the 230 gr.,.45 ACP HST penetrates only an additional inch of bare 10% gel compared to the 147 gr. 9mm, and probably only by virtue of its sectional density compared to the latter. Diffences in expansion are only ~.10

I have fired some old 147 gr subsonic rounds out of my 9c and haven't had an issue with them. What I really miss are the WW 147 gr Silvertips ... the aluminum jacket was soft enough that it let the round expand the way it was supposed to in all the tests I did (water jug)

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Don

Law Enforcement - Federal Premium LE, Speer LE, BLACKHAWK!, Eagle - Home Sells Gold Dots and HST's, and offers a very comprehensive list of their own ballistics tests on both brands, under their Wound Ballistics tab. Their averages are quite interesting indeed. When the bullets are engineered to expand, as such with these brands, even the big 230's and 147's will expand nicely, and in their tests the 230's did not out penetrate the 147's by much, in these apple to apple comparisons, but at similar penetrations on bare gel the .45 cut a bit deeper with GD, and expanded better as well, and penetration was equal between the two on the radically expanding HST's, however the 230 enjoyed a great deal more expansion for the same, barely qualifying penetration.

With IWBA heavy clothing, the 9mm GD's under expanded and penetrated past the .45, with the .45 actually expanding harder and cutting deeper. Interestingly, the HST's show the .45 punching deeper and expanding more, putting the .45 as a clear winner in the HST comparison, and the GD's showing .45 better on clear gel, and an interesting question of tradable qualities on the IWBA clothing.

My point still stands, that if the 147 expands to the same width as the 230, the 230 will punch deeper, and if they penetrate the same, you will get a bigger hole out of the 230. Simply put, the .45 will crush a wider path of the same distance, or a deeper path of the same width. Apples to apples, the .45 comes out ahead. Find other research on other bullet types, especially improved bullets that are not designed to so radically expand, and you will continue to find similar results.

The FBI's protocol and minimum penetration standards are not the holy grail. They were set up after the Miami shootout so the FBI management could blame a bullet instead of pathetic training and worse tactics. Anyone who thinks different is not familiar with the FBI.

Far more realistic is the Border Patrols requirement of 9" or 10" penetration. BUT the Feebles refused to listen so the BP went out on their own. It speaks volumes about the arrogance of the Feebies desk jockeys. They reject the real world experience of the BP which has more shootings than all other Federal agencies totaled together.

I'll put more credence with the BP and other real world feedback rather than if a bullet goes 15" in gelatin.

The FBI has been with the Glock platform since they transitioned from Sigs back in 1997. They still issue Glock 22 and 23 in .40 S&W. You can get a Glock 17 or 19 issued as well. If you want to buy one, you can get a Glock 21 (not SF), a Glock 26, or a Glock 27.

I've seen a lot of FBI bashing in this thread. Sorry to see that. Some whole departments hate the FBI. I've seen some of that because the FBI works public corruption and arrests dirty cops. Ah well.

I've had cops come up to me and bash the FBI right to my face. One deputy was explaining how we hire only inept, bookish nerds who are worthless, etc. I nodded, smiled, and said that if we are in such a sorry state he should help us out and join us, so he can improve the FBI from the inside. He shook his head and said he had applied, but didn't make the cut. The two NCIS agents with me laughed so hard I thought the deputy was going to take a swing at them!

I don't know how things are at the departments the FBI bashers come from, but here we work very closely with our Federal, State, and local counterparts...part of that Law Enforcement Community thing.

I worked closely with the USBP for a while down on the Calexico/Mexicali border area...they are a gunfighting bunch, that is for sure!

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No good deed goes unpunished.

Using the data for the Gold Dot, let's quantify how much "a bit" really is.

9mm, 124 gr. +P:
BG Pen. = 11.78" (FBI FAIL)
IWBA Pen.= 15.88" (FBI PASS)
BG Exp. = .720" or ~2.028 x Cal.
IWBA Exp. = .560" or ~1.577 x Cal.

9mm, 147 gr.:
BG Pen. = 12.58" (FBI PASS)
IWBA Pen. = 16.93" (FBI PASS)
BG Exp. = .660" or ~1.859 x Cal.
IWBA Exp. = .540" or ~1.521 x Cal.

.45 ACP, 200 gr. +P:
BG Pen. = 10.33" (FBI FAIL)
BG Pen. vs. 9mm 124 gr. = ~-14.036%
BG Pen. vs. 9mm 147 gr. = ~-21.781%
IWBA Pen. = 15.20" (FBI PASS)
IWBA Pen. vs. 9mm 124 gr. = ~-4.473%
IWBA Pen. vs. 9mm 147 gr. = ~-11.381%
BG Exp. = .819" or ~1.811 x Cal.
BG Exp. vs. 9mm 124 gr. = +13.750%/~-11.982%
BG Exp. vs. 9mm 147 gr. = ~+24.091%/~-2.650%
IWBA Exp. = .675" or ~1.493 x Cal.
IWBA Exp. vs. 9mm 124 gr. = ~+20.535%/~-5.626%
IWBA Exp. vs. 9mm 147 gr. = +25.000%/~-1.875%


.45 ACP, 230 Gr.:
BG Pen. = 13.00" (FBI PASS)
BG Pen. vs. 9mm 124 gr. = ~+9.384%
BG Pen. vs. 9mm 147 gr. = ~+3.338%
IWBA Pen. = 14.55" (FBI PASS)
IWBA Pen. vs. 9mm 124 gr. = ~-9.140%
IWBA Pen. vs. 9mm 147 gr. = ~-16.357%
BG Exp. = .711" or ~1.573 x Cal.
BG Exp. vs. 9mm 124 gr. = ~-1.265%/~-28.925%
BG Exp. vs. 9mm 147 gr. = ~+7.727%/~-18.181%
IWBA Exp. = .675" or ~1.493 x Cal.
IWBA Exp. vs. 9mm 124 gr. = ~+20.535%/~-5.626%
IWBA Exp. vs. 9mm 147 gr. = +20.000%/~-1.875%

As we can see, no one number tells the whole story. The 9mm Gold Dot offerings excel in some areas while the .45 ACP offerings excel in others. While the .45 ACP edges out the 9mm in expanded diameters, the 9mm loads turn out to be the better expanders when comparing "expansion ÷ caliber" numbers. Regardless, even the 124 gr. +P load which fails the 12" minimum penetration depth protocol still makes DogGKR's "list" because it's a robust expander when fired through intermediate barriers such as wallboard, steel, and automotive glass by virtue of it tending to retain its weight very well.

The "expansion ÷ caliber" numbers above beg to differ.

"Deeper"? In most cases, yes. The 147 gr. HST is only outpenetrated in bare gel by the 230 gr. +P load. As for "expanding more," let's do some math.

HST 9mm 124 gr.:
BG Exp. = .880" or ~2.478 x Cal.
IWBA Exp. = .580" or ~1.633 x Cal.

HST 9mm 124 gr. +P:
BG Exp. = .870" or ~2.450 x Cal.
IWBA Exp. = .640" or ~1.802 x Cal.

HST 9mm 147 gr.:
BG Exp. = .850" or ~2.394 x Cal.
IWBA Exp. = .660" or ~1.859 x Cal.

HST .45 ACP 230 gr.:
BG Exp. = .980" or ~2.168 x Cal.
IWBA Exp. = .800" or ~1.769 x Cal.

HST .45 ACP 230 Gr. +P:
BG Exp. = .980" or ~2.168 x Cal.
IWBA Exp. = .750" or ~1.659 x Cal.

Except in the case of the standard velocity 124 gr. load, the 9mm loads once again demonstrate better expansion than their .45 ACP counterparts. Additionally, the 147 gr. load passed the minimum penetration depth requirement in both BG and IWBA 4-layer denim testing. It also matched or exceeded the .45 ACP loads for penetration in steel, wallboard, plywood, and authomobile glass tests. Again, no one number tells the whole story.

That's due to sectional density. Making any 9mm load expand like the best .45 loads would make them underpenetrate, which is undesirable. And yet, a well-designed and engineered 9mm performs admirably when fired through intermediate barriers. The penetration and retained weight numbers attest to that fact.

Have any scientific evidence to show that bigger holes cause physiological stops faster than slightly smaller ones? We're talking differences of a tenth of an inch in most cases.


Not always. In some cases, the .45 doesn't penetrate as much as other loads, which reduces wound volume.


In certain areas this is without dispute, but not ALL areas. For example, the .45 ACP more often than not falls behind the 9mm and .40 S&W in intermediate barrier testing if you're comparing penetration depths.

When time permits, I intend to compare the differences within the Winchester Ranger lines (e.g. Ranger-T, Ranger Bonded), but right now, my head hurts from doing all this math so you'll just have to wait.

Sorry to hurt feelings but I've dealt a lot with the Feds, especially FBI, for most of my 30+ years. My remarks are mostly aimed at FBI management and the "culture" they perpetrate, tainting all aspects of the agency. You don't want me to go into detail. Every outfit has its bad apples but the FBI indoctrinates their agents from the start at the Academy, as one told me to my face..."I'm from the FBI, the premier law enforcement agency in the world"....and she was dead serious. Even other Federal agents have issues with the FBI attitude. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with investigating bad cops either.

I find the two above statements the most interesting in your post. And since I'm much more of a photographer than a shooter let me relate the first statement to photography.

Saying the .40, 45 and .357 Sig all can do more than the 9mm can is like saying the Canon DSLR can do more than the Nikon DSLR. Neither can do anything at all by themselves. The end result comes from the person behind the lens just like the person pulling the trigger. In other words there are no magic bullets just like there are no magic cameras. I shoot Nikon, not because it is better but because I am much more comfortable with it.

If I'm in dangers way I'd prefer the 9, simply because I can put more rounds on target faster and more accurately than the other calibers you mention.

Finally:

You were enraged by fanboyism?

Mr. CoMF, your ability to use irrelevant statistics and rationalize is astounding, and I am quite impressed. You have forgotten that caliber multiplications are absolutely useless and irrelevant, only the final expansion diameter, meaning the long winded percentages you listed and calculated are of no value whatsoever. You took the time to figure out a method to create irrelevant data to ignore the real and relevant data. It doesn't matter if a .22 expands to .66 of an inch and punches a 12 inch path, its still not as damaging as .50 bullet that expands to .75 inch and punches 14. A 9mm expands more by percentage of its original size than a 12 gauge shotgun slug; are you inferring that the 9mm hollow points are as effective, nay, far more effective in expansion and effect than a 1 oz. shotgun slug?

And yes, expansion counts, otherwise, why would we have expanding rounds int he first place? With FMJ's superior feeding characteristics, why would anyone use hollow points or soft points? Because, if a bullet hits a blood vessel or organ, you want to create the maximum amount of damage possible.

If you say so.

You've stated that the .45 ACP "expands better." One way of determining how "well" a bullet expands is by calculating the expansion to caliber ratio, or "X" times caliber. I simply put your assertion to the test and did the math. If you're unhappy that the results don't support your claims, that's not my problem. The numbers don't lie.

I'm sure you feel that way.

Again, do you have any scientific evidence that a "bigger hole" causes a faster physiological stop than a smaller one? If you've ever read SA Urey Patrick's "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness," you would know that the "problem" was not that the holes were "too small," it's that they weren't penetrating deeply enough to reach vital organs deep within the body!

Who's to say? The human body is unpredictable. I'm sure if you looked hard enough, you'd find accounts of OIS's where the perp took a solid, center mass hit from a 1 oz. slug and kept on fighting.

No, it's to be considered a bonus, IF and when it happens.

Nice straw man you've got there.

FMJ is the worst possible bullet type you can choose, regardless if its .32 or .45. Performance so pathetic it doesn't really matter if its 9mm FMJ or 45 FMJ. Both will slide through soft body tissue with minimal disruption.

These observations are not based on fanboy regurgitation from their favorite ballistics "expert". These are my observations from the crime scenes and autopsy room.

Well, you didn't hurt my feelings. I've got thick skin and have been around the block more than once. I've been to more than one LE academy and worked all over the country and around the world. I've taught LE classes in Africa, Europe, and Asia, so have seen the good and not so good LE agencies from everywhere. I've always tried to help them, not bring them down. I was just sorry to see so much bashing and bitter small-mindedness. It is unnecessary and counter-productive. You paint with an EXCEPTIONALLY broad brush, covering 35,000 employees of a fairly decent organization. No person is perfect. No organization is perfect.

As for the lady agent who said what you claim, she will learn, or she will have a difficult career. BTW - every academy tries to instill pride and esprit de corps in their recruits.

Sorry for the thread drift.

I would love to see the FBI get new gear before I finally retire!

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No good deed goes unpunished.

Affirmative Action has ruined Federal level LE. No one will state as such on the clock for obvious reasons, as well you won't either since you want your pension. How can any agency be expected to act efficiently when daily they cannot voice, let alone address, the bitter truth?

I'm not quite sure exactly what you mean. Be specific...how has "Affirmative Action has ruined Federal level LE"? That is one heck of a statement. So every Federal LE agency is "ruined"? The hyperbole on this thread is amazing!

In my new agent class 80% of the class was former LE, Military, or both. Many of the classes going through today are the same make up.

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No good deed goes unpunished.

You're either kidding or are the beneficiary of such. No one could possibly be that coy. Been to the Post Office lately? The Fed. Gov't uses quotas for hiring and has for decades now. There are Border Patrol agents that can barely speak English as a first language. The Military lowered the bar years ago. At least half the Federal employees I ever dealt with are unfit to mow lawns for a living. I am on the Border and it is screwed up beyond belief.

Former Border Protection Insider Alleges Corruption, Distortion In Agency : NPR

Some interesting issues for discussion coming up here, but that have nothing to do with the thread subject...and also are dangerously close to verboten on this forum.

Let's keep a good thread from getting locked...

Well, I'm a late middle-aged white guy, so I guess I didn't benefit. That leaves....

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No good deed goes unpunished.

Exactly. This particular thread which started off innocently enough, is now one that does not represent what this forum is all about; a place for S&W collectors to gather in a non-threatening environment to discuss all things S&W, but in a MUTUALLY RESPECTFUL manner. Just about everything I've learned about collecting S&W came from being a member of this forum, especially after Lee Jarrett became the owner and proprietor. I too am surprised that this thread hasn't been stopped by now. I salute the FBI agents who've commented in this thread for their restraint in not responding in like manner to those here who've made some rather negative reamarks but more so for their service to our nation, day in and day out, 24/7. Most people do not know that FBI agents are on call night and day 24/7 and are never really "off duty." To insinuate that they are desk warriors only and to slurr female agents as incompetent, comes only from an uninformed place of ignorance and stupidity and with some jealousy too I suspect. There's a role for all of us in this increasingly dangerous world we live in and the more respect and support we give to each of those, male and female, performing in those roles be it at a desk, in our home towns, or to those closer to the spear point in combat, the better off we'll all be. JMTC
Chuck

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SWCA1517 SWHF256
Rangers LTW!

Chuck,

We have a saying...the drinking age for an FBI agent is 57 (that's mandated retirement). Thanks for the positive comments.

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No good deed goes unpunished.

BTW - If any Law Enforcement Agency wants copies of the testing the FBI has performed on all manner of ammunition, call the Ballistic Research Facility at Quantico: 703-632-1000. You will be required to submit a request on Department Letterhead and sign and Non Disclosure Agreement.

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No good deed goes unpunished.

Definitely. With marksmanship, the .357 Magnum revolver is still king. Witness: nearby large city; some street cops STILL carrying revolvers by choice. Response as to why: various versions of "I can hit with it every time and it works first time, every time". Interesting. This is not intended to be in anyway critical of 9mm users. I love my sixguns but will never part with my Browning Hi-power!

This is exceptional information. We request and review it every few years. The expertise of that unit is second to none. When my agency was making the move from 40 to 9, I called and spoke with a exceptionally gracious agent. He answered all of my ammo and ballistic wounding questions. The fact that they are willing to share all of this information with their brothers and sisters, free of charge speaks to their professionalism and sense of "team".

Your ignorance.. or more likely fabrication… is breathtaking. I have worked with dozens of FBI agents over the years, including their firearms instructors. They are all armed, all the the time (they have rules concerning displaying firearms inside their offices). They train more frequently than most law enforcement agencies, and their qualification standards are higher. As an agency they devote resources to selecting and testing ammunition and firearms that few if any can match. All the agents I worked with handled firearms professionally and effectively during the arrests and searches I assisted with. You are talking out of your posterior.

People can disagree on what is adequate for their, or their agencies, needs or situations. What the FBI has done is set a standard for their own needs. They make clear that others might have different standards. But most agencies have determined that the FBI standards and testing are correct, and meet their own needs as determined by street results.

As for your opinions... I could use your kind of bias and say that the Border Patrol shoots skinny Mexican rock throwers in the desert, who hide behind sagebrush, so 9" is plenty. But that would be the disingenuous. Sorry you've had a bad experience with the FBI, whatever your personal reasons for attacking them are. Most of the LE professionals around here that work with them don't share your views, or use your silly slurs. Haters just gotta hate.

Thank you for sharing some actual facts. I was also getting worked up reading the previous posts. I also work for the same agency. My first glock 22 was 13 years old. I got it when it was 7 years old. The only reason I got a new one was because they were upgrading to Gen 3's. I've had my current one for 8 years. If you have already been issued a glock 40 then it will not be replaced. New agents coming from the Academy will be issued the 9mm. This should put some of the BS to rest.

We are very fortunate to get updated magazines on a regular basis. We all know that a magazine is the cause for most malfunctions. It seems like every year they are tweaking them. The last big change to magazines happened when we switched from the 165 gr to the more powerful 180 gr round.

I'm curious. Of those people who bash our Ballistic researchers, how many of you have actually gone down and spent time with them or seen the demonstrations they do. It's offered during National Academy or you can contact them and they can put something together if your in the neighborhood. I'm not going to single out any specific loads, but it's frankly kinda scary when you see some of the rounds LE Agencies are using to include SWAT.

I'm going to cut this short because it's already getting too long. I recently read a paper from the ballistics section which goes into the whole 9mm vs 40 vs 45 debate. I wish I could post it because it is relevant to everything that has been brought up on this forum but I'm sure it would be a no-no. Be safe

I started this thread because anything the FBI does in terms of ammo selection or pistol selection is "big news."

I am not an agent, nor do I play one on TV. Two of my college friends, however, have been with the Bureau for so long now that retirement is "just around the corner." Through them, I have met and associated with many FBI agents, and I have, without exception, found each to be "good people."

The FBI spends untold dollars to test ammo, and they will share that information, as stated, without charge, to requesting agencies. Like their results or methods or not, no one can correctly accuse the FBI of not following "scientific method" in its testing, which are conducted to exacting standards related to what the FBI has determined are its needs. The tests can be repeated and verified.

I also wish that the personal attacks on the FBI and its agents would be scaled back so that we can discuss the ammo question at hand in a civil way.

To you folks on this Forum who are FBI agents, I have not met you in person, but I have read and enjoy your posts, and I want you to know that I, and many, many others here appreciate what each of you do, and I am grateful for it.

Thank you.

PS - I love Eliza's response about HER nose ring!!!

Ahh...my agency management was! Someone up the food chain figured NYPD had it figured so we'd just copy them. Wish we had video of the training classes as the entire dept went through the transition. No wonder the ranges have holes everywhere. I actually shot it very well but I'd been shooting a D/A revolver for many years plus PPC competition.

What chaps my behind is our brass didn't bother to investigate whether the 9mm 147 sub-sonic was any good, until after an OIS. Then they got hussling and calling other agencies (yep same problem) then did gel testing. By that time we'd gotten a kickass chief who lit a blowtorch under some rear ends. Within a few months we had new Glock .40's with 165 Gold Dot. Amazing how well some people can perform if they're worried about their jobs.

There was some inaccurate info post above regarding USBP ammo. If 115 grain +P 9mm was issued, it was prior to 1992, and didn't last long, and issuance of that ammo for duty has long since ceased. From 1992 to about 1996 when we transitioned to .40 S&W, the DUTY 9mm load was Federal 124 gr. +P+ Hydrashok for agents authorized personally owned 9mm pistols. Issue guns were 357 magnum, and the majority of our agents carried issued revolvers.

Transition dates to the .40 varied depending upon location, but by 1997 nearly all had transitioned to the .40. Ammo was 155 gr. JHP by Remington, Winchester, or Federal. In the last couple of years, we switched to the 180 Federal HST, and no 9mm has been issued for duty pistols in years. This info pertains to USBP only, can't speak for ICE.

[QUOTE=Malaki7;138115489]
"I'm curious. Of those people who bash our Ballistic researchers, how many of you have actually gone down and spent time with them or seen the demonstrations they do. It's offered during National Academy or you can contact them and they can put something together if your in the neighborhood. I'm not going to single out any specific loads, but it's frankly kinda scary when you see some of the rounds LE Agencies are using to include SWAT."

I may be wrong and if so, my apologies, but I don't think any of the claimed to be LEOs FBI haters in this thread have attended or ever will attend the National Academy. Had they done so, their comments would be coming from a 180.
Chuck

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SWCA1517 SWHF256
Rangers LTW!

Every time I go through Firearms Instructor Recertification, or any time I'm at Quantico actually, I stop by the BRF and see what is the latest. They have some interesting things going on...one of the most recent was the initial purchase, training, and issuance of 7.62 x 54 rifles (La Rue OBR) for our Indian Country agents. If any of you LE folks are ever in the neighborhood, swing by and have a visit.

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No good deed goes unpunished.

[quote=29-1;138118214]I've been to the Academy for 6 different courses, all sponsored and taught by the FBI forensic lab. Excellent courses. Mixing with the Green Shirts and Blue Flamers was interesting in many ways.
Are the ballistics people you refer to, part of the Lab or a different unit? Hard enough to navigate the gerbil tunnels much less keep track of all the sub-units at the NA.

One area where the FBI has a HUGE advantage is the amount of money available for equipment and facilities. To a municipal Lt who sometimes had to fight for a $50 line item in the budget, it is just mind boggling. The money also gives you the staff to do a lot of things most LE can't because of workload and lack of bodies.

Being in the middle of a large Marine base has its advantages for training without distraction from the general public. Plus its not every day I get to fly around in the HRT chopper.

The Ballistic Research Facility is part of the Defensive Systems Unit at Quantico...absolutely no relation to the Lab.

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No good deed goes unpunished.

Fed. BPLE 115 gr. +p+ was used for awhile before. Easily one of the best "manstopper" rounds ever made in the opinion of those who used it or saw it used. The problem for the G-Men was that it did not always reach the arbitrary 12" of penetration in their testing, notwithstanding the fact that it had practically killed more people than cholera. I think they have an ESE level mandate as well that coffee must penetrate more than 1/2" of a doughnut before a DD1155 is let.

I saw a coyote hit at about 25 yards in the side with a BPLE 9mm from a USBP handgun...the round hit it just back of the ribs, exiting the far side. It took off running and we tracked it for 3 miles. Never did find it though.

The 12" of penetration requirement is not "arbitrary." If you call the BRF they will explain the rationale so you can understand it.

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No good deed goes unpunished.

"I saw a coyote hit at about 25 yards in the side with a BPLE 9mm from a USBP handgun...the round hit it just back of the ribs, exiting the far side. It took off running and we tracked it for 3 miles. Never did find it though."

Since it was so fast in flight, I assume you were referring to the four legged variety.

Best,
Rick

Hey, now you're just bragging!! LOL, I love helos.

It's the only chopper that I wasn't nervous flying in. Much better maintained than Army Guard Hueys, those things scared the **** out of me. That was just the frayed seat belts, no telling what else was neglected.

Good point! Yes, it was about a 40 lb. canis latrans, not the human vermin of the same name.

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No good deed goes unpunished.

So, what am I to take of this?
A 135 gr Hornday critical defense is not as good?
Or a 147 gr FP Berry's is also not good enough to stop a BG?
Man, I'm confused on this 9mm thing...

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Only difference Fool/Mule-ears

So the person you were with was a bad shot. Even the best of ammo can't compensate for poor marksmanship. Perhaps the BRF never explained that to you.

No need to get snarky. What was that comment for? The BRF can explain, in detail, why ammo chosen for the FBI has penetration requirements of 12"-18".

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No good deed goes unpunished.

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The Bureau's purchase decision likely considered more than just performance. Cost, ability to deliver, QC/reliability standards of production, etc.
Find a load that passes the standard (I've posted links to Doc Roberts' stuff repeatedly), make sure it works reliably in your pistol(s), train on tactics, marksmanship and appropriate anatomy, then drive on.

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NHI, 10-8.