As most of you know, the FBI put out a Request for Proposal (RFP) for four types of new 9mm ammunition. The four types are: (1) Service; (2) Training; (3) Reduced Lead Training; and, (4) Frangible. See RFP-OSCU-DSU1301.

The contracts have been awarded to three manufacturers, and not all manufacturers got all four types of ammunition.

Federal got all four types, Olin-Winchester got all but frangible, and Hornady got only frangible.

Here are the contract award numbers and the companies. The product numbers for each type of ammo are in parentheses.

Federal Cartridge Contract Number J-FBI-13-126

Service (54227),

Training (53685),

Reduced Lead Training (53690),

Frangible (ZBC9P1FBI)

Olin-Winchester Contract Number J-FBI-13-127

Service (Q4392),

Training (Q4395),

Reduced Lead Training (Q4396)

Hornady Manufacturing Contract Number J-FBI-13-128

Frangible (90229)

UPDATE: PER TELEPHONE CONVERSATION WITH WINCHESTER, Q4392 is a 147 grain Bonded Hollow Point, sold to other LE as the RA9B; Q4395 is a 147 grain Encapsulated, sold to other LE as RA9147FMJ; and Q4396 is a 124 grain FMJ Encapsulated with lead free primer.

Looks like the Federal ammo has Speer product codes (Gold Dots?)

This is speculation, but I think the Winchester will be as follows

Q4392 147 gr JHP PDX1 (Ranger RA9B)
Q4395 147 gr FMJ (Ranger RA9147FMJ)
Q4396 147 gr FMJ enclosed base (Ranger Q4358)

I have been so far unable to match up the product numbers, so I am not sure of the details of bullet weight, velocity, etc. of each type of ammo.

If they were smart (which they are not) they would simply issue Speer 124 gr. +p Gold Dots and pray that a Rosie O'Donnell type agent would not have her nose ring fall out under recoil and sue.

As the catalog numbers in question are not in any catalog or on any web site that I can find, I suppose we will have to wait until Olin-Winchester and Federal ATK reopen after the holidays. Then, we will have to see if either company is willing to disclose the information. I cannot imagine why they would not, but stranger things have happened.

Perhaps a forum member will come along who either works for Winchester or Federal or who knows someone who does.

I am interested to see exactly what service ammo the FBI has selected under this new RFP. And, if it is the NYPD Speer Gold Dot load, I will be most interested to see if the FBI starts having the Phase 3 malfunctions that have been a problem with NYPD. That type of malfunction seems only to rear its ugly head with the Speer Gold Dot load you mentioned.

Phase 3 malfunction ??? Could you explain?

And as I recall, only in G19s. Google it and you will find a lot of discussion on other forums.

FWIW, I know of a couple agencies that issue the Gold Dot 124 grain +P round and have had great success with it as long as the round hits the right areas. A really savvy Lt. at one of those agencies has provided some good info in another setting. I would not be hesitant to carry it.

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NHI, 10-8.

Fan into a local Senior Agent at a local shot I frequent, he said they were going back to the 9mm and showed us his G26. The load he said was a "147gr. bonded JHP" but didn't say make.
Personally I'm hoping its the HST or Gold Dot. Ranger T of late has been spotty performance wise.
Dale

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"Long live the S&W 3rd. Gen.!"

Only with the NYPD, the same PD that just banned the Kahr 9mm for off duty carry as they had a dozen or so "accidental" discharges with a 9 lbs. DAO trigger I hear. No wonder Hillary Clinton got elected there.

UPDATE: Per telephone conversation with Winchester today, January 3, 2013, the descriptions of each Winchester round are as follows:

Service Ammo: Q4392 is a 147 grain Bonded Hollow Point, sold to other LE as the RA9B;

Training Ammo: Q4395 is a 147 grain Encapsulated, sold to other LE as RA9147FMJ; and

Reduced Lead Training: Q4396 is a 124 grain FMJ Encapsulated with lead free primer. This is not a typo - I was told, and confirmed, that this is 124 grain ammo.

It seems that the FBI has come full circle. I remember in the early 1990's they carried the Winchester subsonic 9mm. It was a 147 grain JHP at 950 FPS. Most agencies, including mine, went with this round, but over a few years most dropped it due to poor performance. Most agencies went with lighter and faster 9mm ammo. We went with the RA9TA the 127 +P+ Ranger SXT and we are very happy with it.

I was pretty close

Recently I went to a ballistics demo with reps from Hornady and Federal. Federal rep made mention of a new ammo from Speer that the FBI just tested and claims is the best performing round they have ever tested. Didn't know if that was marketing BS or not but our agency also received info from the FBI Firearms Testing Facility and it included the test results of this new round in 9mm. I can not disclose that info but I will say I am anxiously awaiting the availability of this new round from Speer!

I know this is an older thread but has there been any more information released about this new round? Is the FBI going to be using Glock 19's instead of 23's ?

We had the Win 147 subsonic and it was ****.

Here's a novel idea let them use what they have. With all of the government ammunition purchasing over the past few years they need to use a 40 until the ammo is expended. Does anyone remember agent Dove and the 9mm 115 silvertip? If they need new ammo that means that they need new weapons. What a waste of tax dollars

Someone needs to tell them "shot placement is king."

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

I missed this earlier. Just flabbergasted to see the Feds being so frugal with our tax dollars that they actually buy a different type (actually several different types) of ammunition for other than duty use. Hard times must be upon them...

That guy who asked about a Phase 3 failure never got an answer.

I use 124 grain Plus P Gold Dots if I don't have Federal's 124 grain HST. If either has caused functioning failures, I need to know, but I can't see why they would.

Is this something specific to Glock 19's, and only in NYPD use?

Which 9mm did the FBI adopt? G-19's? Why was the .40 dropped? Were female or other small agents having trouble cycling .40 slides? Was recoil a factor?

Can special agents still buy their own guns, or must they now use issued pieces? If private purchase. what's allowed?

Y'all can have my share of 147 grain 9mm.
I'm still happy with 115 grain and 124 grain Gold Dot and 115 grain Cor Bon.

If I want .38 Special velocities, I'll carry one of my .38s and stoke it with 110 grain Cor Bon, or some Gold Dot or 158 grain Buffalo Bore LSWCHP+P.

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What would Jim Cirillo do?

I worked with quite a few FBI agents looking for a couple of robbery suspects and one incident that sticks in my mind was an agent that only had 3 rounds of oo buck for his 870 because the rest of his ammo was buried under his softball equipment in the trunk of his government vehicle. Most agents working at the FBI have no need for sidearms because they sit behind a desk and never leave the office. Everytime I was in their office no one that I saw was armed. I'll bet that all of the FBI agents combined fired less than 100 rounds last year in firefights.

20 years ago I went through the FBI's firearms instructors course that lasted a week. We were watching the so called expert show us how to shoot slugs at a full size b-27 target at 50's with an older 870 which had a 20" plain barrel with the bead on the barrel. After 5 shots, all of which missed the target, he looked dumbfounded as to why he missed. I suggetsed that he aim at the belt buckle and he hit the target all 5 times. Anyone that had used one of the older guns knew to shoot at the belt buckle because they shot high which is why Remington added a small ramp. This guy was their expert and he was a boob.

The agent teaching the class told us that the FBI used to let them have as much ammo as they wanted until someone he worked with was caught selling ammo and was given some jail time.

I am sure that somewhere in the FBI there are units that need to be armed but most don't for their everyday tasks.

DESK BOUND COMMANDOS:
Every Agency has them. They usually have the newest equipment and vehicles while the "Street Troops" make do with what comes down from Headquarters when the "Administrators" receive new issue.

The FBI does not have a lock on the office commandos. My former PD had a few who spent their career doing anything to stay off the street & go home by 4 PM.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

The .40 ammo order was not for DOJ, but DHS. While in a rifle class with an FBI FI, we discussed their sidearms a bit. I did not get the impression that he was impressed with their gear and training, but he had been a real cop before and so he had a clue.

He generally recommended the authorized option (personal weapon, approved) of a G21. (Dunno if the 30 is approved; didn't think to ask.) The .45ACP is a lot easier to shoot. He had a Glock in .40, and it was not adequately reliable IMHO. It malfed a few times, as their reputation has been (a friend's agency is dealing with that now; several have been hit with crummy performance from their .40s). I suspect Glock will give them one heck of a deal, probably trading one for one on pistols and mags. The gear would not change, of course.

Remember that the purported ammo problems of the Miami shootout are almost 30 years ago, and we have gone through a lot of performance improvement in the generations of ammo since.

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NHI, 10-8.

Many agencies got suckered into believing that the 147JHP subsonic was great just because the FBI chose to go with load. Most people didn't (and still don't) realize that this round was designed for suppressed SMG's (MP5) and was never designed as a defensive handgun load.

Hi:
In 1962 when I entered Law Enforcement three Agencies that was held in high esteem was the FBI, U.S. Border Patrol, and LAPD. Most Agencies accepted their opinions of weapons, equipment, and training. In that era the FBI had training school for Police Department in different regions. I was sent to one such school in my region. I showed up with a Colt .38 Revolver and a cross draw holster. WOW, I received instant schooling in cross draw holsters are a "NO, NO" and Smith and Wesson Revolvers are a better choice as a sidearm. After the school I went to a Smith and Wesson Revolver in a Jordan style border Patrol holster.

The poster actually meant a "Type (class) 3 Malfunction".

Commonly known as a "Double Feed".

It occurs when the original casing is not ejected properly and the weapon tries to load another cartridge from the magazine, attempting to have the two cartridges occupy the same space.

The drill to clear it is quite involved and is usually handled by going to your BUG.

Currently the FBI is testing the S&W M&P 9mms, several Instructors made a trip out here and spent some time with us since we dropped Glocks in favor of the M&P.

Actually, Mike, my recollection is that what NYPD called a "phase 3" is not the same as a "type 3" (double feed). I won't swear to it. It's kind of odd, in that the only place this seems to have been a documented problem with G19 was with NYPD, and they had a hell of a time with it. Glock had to bring a mobile facility to the range to work on the pistols and they went through several efforts at repairing it. My old Gen 2 17, and my 19L worked up by Don Ellis have never done such as I recall.

Pat Rogers has described the experience and the events around it a few times. He's a member here but I almost never see him show up.

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NHI, 10-8.

"accidental" discharges with a 9 lbs. DAO trigger ...."

Now, how in the world does that happen?
Maybe someone needs a desk job?

Maybe alcohol induced

I will never understand the FBI's fascination with the 147 grain 9mm projectile. I realize that their performance has improved dramatically but I do not think it equals to the lighter, faster rounds out there.

In the Glock, the Phase / Type / Class 3 Malfunction, is still a double feed.
The spent casing, without enough "power" to eject fully, stays in the weapon as the new round is stripped from the magazine.
The casing, still stuck in the extractor, rides forward over the new round and lodges firmly on the bbl hood.
As you've stated, I too have never seen it repeated. Oh well.

Attached Images

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There are many 147 grain load that do very, very well these days.

It's not 1990. Things have changed.

Bingo. Of course, NYPD supposedly would have none of the "it's the Indian & not the arrow" pep talk and threw a hissy fit according to industry insiders at the time as well as threatened to drop Glock like an ugly blind date. Obviously, Glock was not wanting to lose a huge contract like that with lots of PR factor, so they "powdered" the baby's bottom. It was in the Gen 2 G19's which came out in '88.


I've owned a couple of the Gen 2 G19's and had a similar problem with one using weak Win. WB ammo back in the day. Solution: changed to better (hotter) ammo and the issue was resolved. Many fail to remember that when Glock first hit the U.S. shore in early '86 the Gen 1 G17 had an 18 or 19 lbs. RSA that was made for European NATO spec ammo and not watered down U.S. range fodder. As well, the first lots had a really tight spec chamber and some Fed. American Eagle I had wouldn't chamber. Again, tight Teutonic specs vs. sloppy U.S. specs. They opened the chamber specs as a result. The RSA nowadays is rated 17 lbs. for the G17.

Oh, Man... say it ain't so!

If the FBI has the funds to purchase new weapons every few years then the budget need to be readjusted, downward. There is no reason for any agency to need new weapons so often. This is one of the reasons this country is in the fiscal shape we are in.

I doubt very much they are paying much if anything for the pistols. Major manufacturers do a lot of special deals to get major LE agencies to use their weapons. Also, depending on the platform and training level, a 10 year service life could be a lot to expect. (AFAIK, FBI does not shoot at that level.)

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NHI, 10-8.

By staffing the rank and file using Affirmative Action standards?

Bad training and no performance standards for trainees or trainers. I've seen plenty of window lickers in both groups.

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NHI, 10-8.

Interesting, I'll stick with my Corbon DPX 115 +p though...

I have a lot of time dealing with the FBI locally and how they get anything done is beyond me. Its a bloated, antiquated, self-serving bureaucracy with the exception of some exceptional individuals. Hanging around the FBI Academy for six courses two weeks a crack gave me good behind the scenes look at the paper jungle.

I vividly recall how the 147 sub-sonic was all the rage circa 1991 when we went to Glocks. I was not convinced and was proven right when two officers were nearly killed because of the pitiful 147 subsonic. We went right to Glock .40's with Gold Dot 165gr.

I have some very strong opinions about the FBI ammo testing protocol and the Miami shootout that created it. I feel the FBI management could not admit their training and tactics were ***** so the Win Silver Tip became the scapegoat.

What puzzles me is the reverence the FBI ammo tests get. I'm even more puzzled (actually I'm not) why the FBI refuses to incorporate the Border Patrol's desired changes to the testing protocol. The average Border Patrol officer has a far greater chance of a deadly force incident than any FBI agent. I'm sure the BP has more shootings too but these stats for the FBI are impossible to find via Google.

It boils down the arrogant attitude that's ingrained within the FBI. They know what's best for those lowly street cops and Border Patrol officers who just operate off locker room rumor. As one new FBI recruit told me, "I'm with the FBI, the premier law enforcement agency in the world". Whatever...

Not even close. The NYPD issues 3 guns. The G19, Sig 226, and he S&w 5946. The job was using 115 grain fmj ammo when the problem appeared. The empty casing was getting jammed under the extractor and causing a phase 3 malfunction. It only happen with the glock.

The Job contacted glock and glock told us to go to hotter ammo. Funny how the sig and smith were fine with the older ammo. Several street shootings happened with the malfunction. The job called glock again and told them to fix it or they were recalling all the glocks and replacing them with ruger p90 series guns. Now glock got off their *** and sent an armorer to the range to recut the ejection port of all glocks. Bottom line is they let cops walk the beat with a defective gun for over a year. They'll never get another dime from me

As for the "nypd glocks". All they are is a glock 19 with a NY trigger installed. And there were over 6000 glocks in service at the time so if course the odds are higher the problem would be seen more often.

As for the drinking comment, I guess we can characterize all gun owners as redneck tea party members, too, right?

I think we are talking 125 and 149 gr defense style jhps

What kind of velocities are we talking about??

One question: if this was an inherent flaw in the Glock then why was there no problem anywhere else in the World with the Gen 2 G19 at that time?

Don't know. But the problem wasn't with every glock although it did happen several times with my one glock and I am a gun guy who cleans and cares for his weapon. But since at the time the nypd contract was the biggest in the country it is not surprising that it appeared more often with them

But it is gone away now so a better question is what did glock change, and why did they let cops carry them knowing there was an issue? The sig and smith worked just fine all that time

I agree with you 100% when it comes to the FBI.

USBP (now ICE) sees more shootings than the FBI and the rest of the armed "Feds" put together. USBP was wise to ignore the FBI and decided to go with the 115JHP+P+ instead of the 147JHP.

As a side note, I got my first 147JHP subsonic round for my collection back in 1988 from a CA DOJ agent. The date stamp of the round was 87. Shows you how quickly agencies jumped onto the FBI's bandwagon of issuing the ****** 147JHP.

This, plus the "cost saving" measure of sending cops to qualify twice a year, and the range instructors stabbing the targets with their pens as they score them to make more "bullet holes" and pass the officer.

If they don't pass them, they can't go back to patrol and that means less cops on the street. Right before 12/31/99, the word went out that EVERYBODY passes to insure full manpower at Times Square and throughout the city.

The job liked to brag that every officer is entitled to one free box of ammo a month to practice on his own, but the practice had to be done at one of the department ranges. There were 4 of them throughout the city. And try to find parking at any one of them. So I took advantage of that MAYBE twice. Driving 2 hours to shoot 50 free rounds just wasn't worth it.

True. The weight was increased for better functioning and the hollow point made the round more accurate. It was never intended to expand. They needed head shot accuracy for sentry removal.

The Q load was on the light side and some guns would not work with it. Had a first generation G17 that worked perfectly with this issued load. Was like shooting a 22lr. Later switched to 115 gr CorBon and still using it.

I'll bet soon after the contracts are fulfilled, the FBI will change guns and calibers - as usual.............

I might give these 147gr speers a try in our M&P and see how well they test. Been using there 124gr+P speers and 155gr 40sw speers. Stout loads.
9mm Luger +P+ 147 Grain Bonded Jacket Hollow Point Box of 50

Good review on it too
9mm +P+ Underwood 147 gr Gold Dot Ammo Gel Test - YouTube

Well, my FBI bride has had the same ****** Glock for the past 11 years so not too sure where the notion comes from that the bureau changes all that often. Must be another FBI out there that I don't know about. She has other POWs but they all came out of her bank account, not the government's. Just setting the record straight. Any other agents feel free to step in here and keep this thread accurate and respectable.
Chuck

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SWCA1517 SWHF256
Rangers LTW!