.380 vs .357 - Beware the man of steel

I've had my Bodyguard 380 for a couple years now. I very much like this piece, its diminutive size is remarkable, and surprisingly I'm a very competent shot with it. Very accurate, and quick handling too. It was a great purchase.

I took my time coming to terms with the caliber choice, but I figured that more than anything, its better than no-gun. Careful ammo selection and practice landing them where they'll count make this an effective self defense tool.

Yesterday though, my confidence both increased, and decreased. I was shooting 20-25 yards at a metal spinner with the BG and a .357 magnum, mostly with light .38 specials. The light .38's (3.4gr bullseye under a 158gr LSWC) recoiled about the same in a 6" model 19 as winchester white box truncated cone in the BG. They sure hit with a lot more authority though - spinning the target much more energetically. I could whack the 4.25" lower target pretty consistently with the BG, one out of two shots on a good string. But some of them barely shook the thing! Other hits swung it back, but not around a full revolution.

Where it gets interesting, is when I walked up to the target there were several .380 bullets laying on the ground around it.

Now I know that few bad guys are made from 3/8" steel plate, but still, its creepy when your bullets simply bounce off something and lay there all inert and minimally deformed.

On the other hand, the .357 sure makes me all warm and fuzzy. It spun that target fast enough and for long enough to charge a cell phone, and left impressions in the plate.

I need to shoot more reactive targets and less paper.

I have both the Bodyguard and two .357 magnums. I am more likely to carry the Bodyguard (or my preference is a Springfield XDS .45, 3" barrel) than I am either .357, so like they say, the best gun in a critical situation is the one you have with you. That being said, I saw a neat video on YouTube by Jerry Miculek where he shoots a BG with the normal 95 grain bullet in comparison with a Hornady critical defense 90 grain hollow point (although they have round Flex Tip in the center of the hollow point to prevent jamming). The Hornady has greater velocity and does much more damage. As far as the .357s are concerned, that is a great round. I also like to shoot the .38 Special + Ps which are better than the regular .38s, have greater velocity and the ones I use are also hollow points. But check out the video, Jerry can even hit a target from 200 yards, pretty impressive. Regards, Jim

Since the topic of discussion is .380 Auto, I'll post up a graphic that I got from Springfield....when I got my XDs .45ACP. I think it pretty much goes along with what the OP was indicating.



Now before anyone gets their shorts in a knot, I'll be the first to say that having ANY firearm is better than having none at all. Heck, I carry a 5 shot .22 Mag as a backup. Carry what you can...and more so, what you are familiar with and can deliver rounds on target.

arizona98tj said:

Since the topic of discussion is .380 Auto, I'll post up a graphic that I got from Springfield....when I got my XDs .45ACP. I think it pretty much goes along with what the OP was indicating.

Now before anyone gets their shorts in a knot, I'll be the first to say that having ANY firearm is better than having none at all. Heck, I carry a 5 shot .22 Mag as a backup. Carry what you can...and more so, what you are familiar with and can deliver rounds on target.

Click to expand...

Really?? Left is a loaded 45 acp, on the right is a projectile (bullet) for my 500

Yes, firing at Pepper poppers or bowling pins will graphically illustrate the differences in power level between various calibers.

Just how do you carry a 500 concealed??? If you are big enough to carry that 500 concealed, you really do not need a gun!!! LOL

Gives you a real demo of why heavier projectiles are better.

No surprise that even a targe loaded 38 SoCal s superior to a .380.

Re: OP. Target shooting is lots of fun. The same is true of shooting plates, etc. Some handguns lends themselves very well to this sort of recreation. However, these pistols are seldom well suited to cc. The Bodyguard .380 is about ideal for cc. All the bluster about it not being a "serious" caliber, etc. is fine for internet chats. But in actual off the muzzle distances dealing with criminals who are not wearing anything other than standard issue pants and shirts, the Bodyguard is going to be extremely effective for one very good reason. It is light enough and small enough that someone will actually have the thing on them when they need it. It works. It works very well. With any decent modern high-performance SD ammunition it will be and excellent pistol/caliber to use for SD/HD.

Don't worry about spent bullets lying on the ground. Shoot long enough and you'll see lots of spent bullets, everything from .22 LR right on up to .45 ACP and .44 Magnum. Shoot paper targets. FMJ type bullets generally will not shatter when fired against a steel plate. Magnum loads using lead or JHP's will almost always shatter when they hit a steel plate. They simply are not constructed as strongly as FMJ bullets.

The reason you'll never see a spent bullet where it bounced off the paper is b/c it will go right on through. That is what bullets do when they hit the human body. That's what they are designed to do.

Shoot targets. Shoot paper targets. Many people despise them, but they will tell you the truth about where you are actually hitting as you run through various potential situations. Shoot paper targets and don't make excuses for where round did or did not go. Learn where vital organs/bone, etc. is actually found in the human body. Just as in hunting one cannot always count on a perfect side-ways presentation, so in a SD incident, presentation will not likely ever be what is shown on the paper targets or the metal silhouette targets.

Been there, done that, tried the S&W 500. Didn't find it to be a viable CCW handgun for me....but if it works well for you, that is absolutely great. The graphic was about the concept of a "fad".....something that is popular for a while and then fades away. Not sure if you intentionally overlooked that or not. Regardless, when your 500 has been around for more than a century and it still one of the most popular handgun calibers sold, let me know.

FWIW, I've got one of those pics too...took it on my reloading bench.

I'm not a Cop, and I never have shot anybody, but I have been around a few really tough people. And form this Forum alone there is a big-ole-pile of actual "shoot-data" that is reliable.

Most everybody out there will quit doing what they are doing if you stab them with a sharp stick.

"Knock-down" power in most handgun loads does not exist. As such the power to rotate a pendulum is probably not necessary to shoot in self-defense.

If the bullet will get to the vitals, as a .380 can do in most situations, even if it is slow and not explosive it will probably do the job. And it has been reported to do just that in many instances.

However, if I carry a handgun for self-defense (almost always in the woods only) it will be the BIGGEST caliber I can handle accurately.

But in some situations a .22LR, .380, or S&W .38 Special J-Frame is what I have carried. I feel quite comfortable with them and know that they will do the job, one I never hope to have to do.

arizona98tj said:

Been there, done that, tried the S&W 500. Didn't find it to be a viable CCW handgun for me....but if it works well for you, that is absolutely great. The graphic was about the concept of a "fad".....something that is popular for a while and then fades away. Not sure if you intentionally overlooked that or not. Regardless, when your 500 has been around for more than a century and it still one of the most popular handgun calibers sold, let me know.

FWIW, I've got one of those pics too...took it on my reloading bench.

Click to expand...

My post was more just a joke after the 45-380 comparison, jeeze!

You don't do much of a crimp on yours do you? Or is that just crimpless?

Shoot what you can hit your target with and that you can afford as having nothing is not an option. I own revolvers and pistols from 44 magnum down to 22LR and my carry gun is a Sig P228 9mm with 16 rounds. Why, because I shoot it well and as a former Vietnam combat veteran more ammo is always a better.

More kicks to the poor .380; well I'll take a hit to the boiler room with a .380 before I'll take a close shave (read that miss) with a .500 Mega-Blaster. Also, which are you more likely to actually carry? Several years ago I took a 290 pound Russian wild boar with a .380 mini-pistol. I fired 3 times, got 3 hits, the first shot at 25 yards would have been fatal. I agree with fyimo...shoot what you can hit your target with AND shot placement!

The BG .380 is my EDC. I'm 45 minutes away from the cavalry and plan to use it to get to my "real" guns...if I have to.

Not only that - it's a hoot to shoot!

I would not want to be shot with a 380 Auto or any bullet for that matter but I do like the 38/357 much better for SD. I also like the 45 Auto...

ILTim said:

Where it gets interesting, is when I walked up to the target there were several .380 bullets laying on the ground around it.

Now I know that few bad guys are made from 3/8" steel plate, but still, its creepy when your bullets simply bounce off something and lay there all inert and minimally deformed.

Click to expand...

I've heard of a gun battle where .380's were used and one of the bad guys wearing a heavy leather jacket literally had bullets falling to the ground as they took it off at the morgue. Some did not even penetrate all the way through his jacket! When that was discovered that particular Dept. was forbidden from carrying .380's as back-up/off duty. I don't know the truth to all this but I don't have any trouble believing it.

Having said that, the .380 can be adequate enough for SD with the right ammo/training but I'd be inclined to carry FMJ for penetration during the winter months, if a .380 was the only gun I had.

Improved ammo

Improved ammo moves the .380 into the serious SD class. Yes, it's weaker than almost anything else people carry for SD. I like my 686 w/ a 6" barrel for warm fuzzies, but I don't want to carry it around.

Chris642 said:

I've heard of a gun battle where .380's were used and one of the bad guys wearing a heavy leather jacket literally had bullets falling to the ground as they took it off at the morgue. Some did not even penetrate all the way through his jacket! When that was discovered that particular Dept. was forbidden from carrying .380's as back-up/off duty. I don't know the truth to all this but I don't have any trouble believing it.

Having said that, the .380 can be adequate enough for SD with the right ammo/training but I'd be inclined to carry FMJ for penetration during the winter months, if a .380 was the only gun I had.

Click to expand...

I have a very heavy leather motorcycle jacket. I believe it has a chance of stopping a light .380 round, and no, I don't mean that I think its a bulletproof vest! But the lapels probably approach a half inch of good solid leather, a hit in the right place with the wrong bullet... well I believe your story.

And a note to the "winter months" guys, I only ride in the summer. Rethink your seasonal caliber choice!

Re: .380 penetration myths, etc. Simple way to deal with veracity of such claims that .380 will not penetrate common clothing, etc. Shoot common SD .380 ammo into gelatin that has normal layers of everyday type clothing placed over it. Has been done many times w/ denim, t-shirts, etc. Do it with cloth that mimics what is used on coats, etc. See how the .380 does. For that matter, see how effective are the results using SD loads/ammo in other commonly accepted /used calibers.

ILTim said:

I have a very heavy leather motorcycle jacket. I believe it has a chance of stopping a light .380 round, and no, I don't mean that I think its a bulletproof vest! But the lapels probably approach a half inch of good solid leather, a hit in the right place with the wrong bullet... well I believe your story.

And a note to the "winter months" guys, I only ride in the summer. Rethink your seasonal caliber choice!

Click to expand...

My first pistol was a Beretta 70S 380. In testing for expansion, I shot a number of hollow points through very thick leather from a butterfly chair. The stuff was stiff and at least 1/4" thick, backed with magazines. The 380s all penetrated, but the only round that expanded was the 85gr Silvertip, and expansion was minimal. Recovered Federals and Speers looked brand new. Modern hollow points are probably better, but I wouldn't count on a leather jacket to stop a round. Deepest penetration was with ball. Incidentally, the Beretta was a real dog. I can shoot a 38 in the LCR much better than the 380 from the Beretta.