BUFFALO BORE .38 SPECIAL VS .357 MAGNUM FROM A SNUBBY

I just wanted to post this for the new comers to the site and for some who are unaware or have never chronographed their actual loads.

If your CCW is a 2" snub-nose Revolver it is my personal opinion that it would make a lot more sense to carry Buffalo Bore HEAVY .38 Special +P LSWCHP-GC (or similar) loads than a 158 grain (I am discounting 125 grain Mag's due to the fact that they cause havoc with flame cutting and accelerated wear on small revolvers) .357 Magnum load from the "Big Three" manufacturers and here is why..........

The .357 cartridge was not designed for snubby's - it was designed for 6 inch barreled guns. It has a violent recoil and large muzzle flash and out of a 2 inch barrel a good percentage of the powder is burned outside the barrel causing an even larger and brighter muzzle flash. This in turn means that the big muzzle flash creates all sorts of problems and does not burn inside the barrel which would work to propel the projectile faster. I won't even get into the beating your 2" J or K takes from Magnum loads here.

From my actual chronograph testing (M66 2.5" bbl.) I have found that the actual muzzle velocity of the BB +P .38 Special 158 grain LSWCHP-GC is a very consistent 1040 fps while 158 grain .357 JHP Magnums from Remington and Winchester were below the 1000 fps mark out of the same gun. The BB load has almost no muzzle flash while the Magnum's is huge. The recoil from the Magnum is a whole lot greater than the .38 Special and the beating a small J or K frame takes from a Magnum load is a whole lot more than a .38 Special. Accuracy and follow up shots also suffer greatly with the Magnum load, as does the pain in your hands from shooting them. Night blindness from Magnums is also a concern here.

If you are in the woods and carrying a 5 or 6 inch L or N frame then the .357 Magnum does offer great advantages over the .38 Special and is not difficult to control - that's what it was designed for, but for a 2" snubby my personal feeling is that using Magnum loads is a huge disadvantage. I would bet they now make special snub-nose Magnums and I know there will be some disagreement here, but this is just one mans opinion for general SD purposes. YMMV.

Respectfully,
Chief38

I do not have the equipment to measure velocity but I would agree with your tests. Your premise would also be true with other cartridges. A 22 magnum will continue to accelerate thru a 16" barrel so is it better than a 22 L.R. in a 2" ?

Revolver-time said:

I do not have the equipment to measure velocity but I would agree with your tests. Your premise would also be true with other cartridges. A 22 magnum will continue to accelerate thru a 16" barrel so is it better than a 22 L.R. in a 2" ?

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I don't own any .22 Magnum firearms and therefore am unable to comment knowledgeably. I have never personally cared for the .22 Magnum because it is still a rimfire and still not as reliable as a centerfire cartridge. 22LR ammo is cheap, plentiful, (well at least it used to be) very accurate and relatively quiet for general purpose target shooting, small game hunting & plinking. If I need a more potent round I just step up to a .38 Special, .357 Magnum, .45 ACP or .45 Colt which I can reload for less than a box of 22 Magnum cartridges.

Next time one of my Buddies takes a .22 Magnum Revolver down to the Range I will bring my Chronograph along with a .22 LR (similar gun) and test the comparison. It would be an interesting experiment!

Respectfully,
chief38

To some degree I agree with you but only if people have access to Buffalo Bore or Underwood type 38 loads, which approach the same level as some of the big box companies magnum loads. If you compare those same loads to Buffalo Bore and Underwood magnum loads the difference is much greater. Also in most of the testing I've read there is really a very minimal amount of difference in velocity between different barrel length 357s. I think in the end you have to carry what's comfortable to you, I never carry 38's in my 357s personally but I'm not recoil sensitive. The Buffalo Bore and Underwood 38s are in a different class than regular 38s though.

What about these? The manufacturer claims 1100 fps and 425 ft lbs. from a snub.

This video had me choose carrying 357 from my snubs over 38 special. Granted they didn't test any BB, the 357 is moving a lot faster than 38's out of the same gun. I also carry the 125's and while I don't put tons of them through my guns, it's more of a cost thing. I reload for target but for sd it's factory for me.

With that said, I would have no reservations about carrying that BB load in a snub for the reasons you brought up and your chronograph results. Might pick some up at the next show I stop at.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yqDysouNjL4

Any figures Buffalo Bore puts out I would have no problem believing. I have never heard anyone who hasn't said their loads meet if not exceed their printed figures.

If BB indeed produces higher velocity with the same bullet weight, the recoil would be the same or greater. I'm not surprised that BB performs better than white or green box ammunition, but they're not a good choice for self defense either.

357 was designed around an 8-3/8" barrel, as listed in most reloading tables. However velocity is maxed out with barrels at least 16" long. Flash is mostly secondary combustion of unburned gasses, not powder, and can be controlled with additives like KCl and diethylamine. Flash is a trade off with smoke.

My 3" 686 weighs 38 oz, which tames .357 very well.

Neumann said:

If BB indeed produces higher velocity with the same bullet weight, the recoil would be the same or greater. I'm not surprised that BB performs better than white or green box ammunition, but they're not a good choice for self defense either.

357 was designed around an 8-3/8" barrel, as listed in most reloading tables. However velocity is maxed out with barrels at least 16" long. Flash is mostly secondary combustion of unburned gasses, not powder, and can be controlled with additives like KCl and diethylamine. Flash is a trade off with smoke.

My 3" 686 weighs 38 oz, which tames .357 very well.

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On what do you base that statement? How is Buffalo Bore not a good choice for self-defense? Do you have penetration and expansion tests to go along with velocity readings? I use the BB 158gr. LHP GC in all of my short barreled revolvers I carry regularly. I have complete trust in it based on my own observations, product reports from third parties and the tests I have seen conducted.

I'm in line...

I'm in line with your philosophy. I favor low - end .357 mag loads for indoor HD. and close range outside.

Some may have missed that I stated in my original post .357's from the "Big Three" ammo company's, NOT BB's Magnums VS BB +P .38 Specials. I have fired BB Magnums (158 gr. & 180 gr. from Snubby's and it ain't purdy!!! It hurts like Hell and IMHO are just not realistic to be shot from 2" J's.

The Big Three Mag's (158 gr.) chronographed below or at about the same velocity of the BB +P.38 Specials out of the same Snub Nose Revolver in my actual tests but with much more muzzle blast and recoil to deal with = NO ADVANTAGE.

The reason I posted this in the first place is to let people know that from a 2" Revolver most Magnums are not any advantage at all and actually a worse choice than a good .38 Special +P. Initially I was pretty surprised myself by the chronograph results and had to do all testing over again just so I would believe what the read-out was saying.

Also Note: Almost all .357 Magnum data stated on ammo boxes is based on either "TEST BARRELS" or 6 - 8 barrels - NOT 2" bbls.

Neumann said:

357 was designed around an 8-3/8" barrel, as listed in most reloading tables. However velocity is maxed out with barrels at If BB indeed produces higher velocity with the same bullet weight, the recoil would be the same or greater. I'm not surprised that BB performs better than white or green box ammunition, but they're not a good choice for self defense either.

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I'm not sure what you are saying here. Help me with this. Why wouldn't a JHP going over 1000 ft/sec not be a good defense round?

The difference between .38 and .357 isn't as pronounced in short barrels, but the .357 is still has about 100 fps velocity advantage.

snowman.45 said:

On what do you base that statement? How is Buffalo Bore not a good choice for self-defense? Do you have penetration and expansion tests to go along with velocity readings? I use the BB 158gr. LHP GC in all of my short barreled revolvers I carry regularly. I have complete trust in it based on my own observations, product reports from third parties and the tests I have seen conducted.

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I may be wrong but I believe he was referring to the regular white and green box ammo the BB was being compared to as not being a good choice for defense.

Recoil is a subjective thing, some don't like a magnums recoil so a 38 is probably a better choice for them, but don't think a magnum isn't a better round if the recoil doesn't bother you. I shoot full house 180 gr hard cast BB out of my snubby 357s all the time and have no issue with recoil whatsoever. Also if you have a hot +P 38 that is pushing the same bullet as a light loaded 357 to the same velocity the recoil should be about the same, so I'm not sure how the 38 is a better choice in that scenario.

307-Niner said:

What about these? The manufacturer claims 1100 fps and 425 ft lbs. from a snub.

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I have the BB +P .38 Spl. for J frame carry. I did purchase some of these for use in my Sp101 when a little more punch is wanted. Buffalo Bore is expensive, but reigns supreme as quality self defense ammo.

I'm here to learn, not debate. I don't know the answers, and that is why I read these threads & ask the sometimes silly questions.

Going way back to physics class (almost 25 years ago), we learned about things like weight, mass, velocity, acceleration, energy, etc. So, if we want to make a 158 grain bullet move 1100 fps from a 2 inch barrel, it will require "X" amount of energy. Help me understand how using a 38 special case vs a 357 magnum case makes any difference at all.

I would think that the only way you're going to reduce recoil, is by slowing the bullet down using less energy, or using a lighter weight bullet. Or some combination of the two.

Or am I way off base in my thinking? I am not knowledgable about reloading either. Like I said at the beginning of my post, I'm here to learn.

You are perfectly correct Niner, case length doesn't really matter if you are propelling the same weight bullet to the same velocity. You can load a lighter bullet or reduce the charge to make it recoil less. Now felt recoil will change based on the weight of the gun. But again recoil is subjective. As far as what most companies list on the box for specs, the big box companies use a fixed barrel length, however Buffalo Bore uses various length barrels and reports velocity and energy for all of them. They use actual guns too not just some test barrel in an R&D lab.

You right.....

307-Niner said:

I'm here to learn, not debate. I don't know the answers, and that is why I read these threads & ask the sometimes silly questions.

Going way back to physics class (almost 25 years ago), we learned about things like weight, mass, velocity, acceleration, energy, etc. So, if we want to make a 158 grain bullet move 1100 fps from a 2 inch barrel, it will require "X" amount of energy. Help me understand how using a 38 special case vs a 357 magnum case makes any difference at all.

I would think that the only way you're going to reduce recoil, is by slowing the bullet down using less energy, or using a lighter weight bullet. Or some combination of the two.

Or am I way off base in my thinking? I am not knowledgable about reloading either. Like I said at the beginning of my post, I'm here to learn.

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You are right, the laws of physics still apply, but there are other factors besides just mass, velocity and energy like barrel length, mass of the gun, center of gravity etc.

There is NO difference between a .38 case and a .357 EXCEPT for the slightly longer length to prevent the .357 from chambering in a .38 pistol. A .357 load could conceivably be loaded into a .38 case, but safety forbids it because that round might end up in a .38 pistol with a .357 load.

rwsmith said:

You are right, the laws of physics still apply, but there are other factors besides just mass, velocity and energy like barrel length, mass of the gun, center of gravity etc.

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So, to keep apple-to-apple comparisons of ammunition, a person can rule out those variables by using the same snubby, with the same grip & stance, fired by the same person.

If I'm comparing how different ammunition reacts (recoils) in my 340, and that's the only gun I use to compare them, all of the other possible variables are gone. Right?

You right.....

307-Niner said:

I'm here to learn, not debate. I don't know the answers, and that is why I read these threads & ask the sometimes silly questions.

Going way back to physics class (almost 25 years ago), we learned about things like weight, mass, velocity, acceleration, energy, etc. So, if we want to make a 158 grain bullet move 1100 fps from a 2 inch barrel, it will require "X" amount of energy. Help me understand how using a 38 special case vs a 357 magnum case makes any difference at all.

I would think that the only way you're going to reduce recoil, is by slowing the bullet down using less energy, or using a lighter weight bullet. Or some combination of the two.

Or am I way off base in my thinking? I am not knowledgable about reloading either. Like I said at the beginning of my post, I'm here to learn.

Click to expand...

You are right, the laws of physics still apply, but there are other factors besides just mass, velocity and energy like barrel length, mass of the gun, center of gravity etc.

There is NO difference between a .38 case and a .357 EXCEPT for the slightly longer length to prevent the .357 from chambering in a .38 pistol. A .357 load could conceivably be loaded into a .38 case, but safety forbids it because that round might end up in a .38 pistol with a .357 load. What I do now though, is load .38 special loads in .357 cases to prevent the crud buildup in the chamber so when I switch to .357 loads I don't have to clean the chambers to get the longer case to fit.

Some people wear Big Boy pants and can shoot the magnums and others can't. Nothing new here.