It was a nice day yesterday so was able to get out and do some chronographing and shooting. Would have liked to have a little more time to do some water expansion tests but was not to be.

The following are a few of the loads tested mainly trying to determine what might work well with the lightweight/short barrel .41 Magnums like the Mountain Gun, 657 3", Night Guard and Personal Defense revolvers.

First tested was the 180 grain total copper round from C.O.P.

4" Mountain Gun....1083/1115/1070 (1084 average)

2.5" 357NG...........1060/1055/1021 (1045 average)

This WD40 can had been left out overnight and was frozen solid...







Recoil was very manageable with both guns...

Next was the Federal 180 with the total copper Barnes Bullet...

4" Mountain Gun.......1204/1238/1283 (1241 average)

2.5" 327NG..............1128/1155/1148 (1143 average)

Recoil was ok in the MG but less than comfortable with the NG.



Next were some home brew...

195 grain MiHic hollow point full wadcutter. I can't find my notes but believe the first was 7.0 Unique and the second load 8.0 of Unique.

4" MG...........1128/1155/1098 (1127 average)

2.5" 357NG....1082/1078/1095 (1085 average)


4" MG............1230/1268/1245 (1247 average)

2.5" 357NG.....decided the recoil was a little much....not tested.





The bullet turned inside out and the base came through the off side...pieces of the HP were later found in the ice...







Next load tested was a home cast 205 grain lead bullet with and incredible .37 Meplat. Load was 8.0 grains of Unique. Mould is available from Accurate Molds....very impressive...

4" MG..............1001/963/965 (976 average)

2.5" NG............941/849/893 (915 average)

Can shot with a 3" 657...



Cut a larger hole going in than the full wadcutter did...



...and much larger hole going out...



Load was very controllable from the light weight NG..


Last load tested was a 230 grain Keith style SWC from Leadhead Bullet. This rendition has a larget meplat than the original Keith design. This was backed by 8.0 grains of Unique and has been my regular carry load while in the field with a 4" 357 PD. Recoil is vary manageable.

4" 357 PD..........986/1010/996 (1000 average)

2.5" 357 NG.......933/924/955 (937 average)


My 357 NG shoots several inches high with standard 210 grain bullets. With bullets in the 165-190 grain range much closer to POA. Still some more testing to do but for now I think that when I carry the NG the best bang for the buck without having the snot kicked out of your hand is the C.O.P. ammo. It can be had over on GunBroker for $165 a case of 250 rounds which is a lot cheaper than most jacketed .41 ammo is going for.

Bob

Your best bet in my humble and mildly knowledgeable opinion would be the Winchester 175 grain Silvertip. Hard casts are great for large game but men do not fit into that category.

..a few more pics from some shooting last year...

NG with 210 grain Berry's Plated bullet with 8.0/Unique (950 fps)



NG with 195 HPWC...




Tough plastic powder container filled with water...



Entrance hole...



Blew top off the jug but the bullet stayed inside...





...if I recall correctly the large piece which is the base of the bullet made it out the other side and was found about six feet behind the jug sitting on he hard snow crust..

..another victim....

3" 657 with Federal 180 Barnes HP....



....does not do pretty things to its victims...



...nothing beats velocity....for steel guns this is a real hard round to beat for self-defense...

195s....Matts is no longer marketing these for some reason...I as lucky enough to get a mound on the last group buy over on the Cast Boolit Forums...



Run into a vest insert...




...your ammo also can double for a shot glass...

Thanks for sharing Bob.

I am learning a lot....especially that WD-40 will freeze, or was that water?

I have been carrying Winchester 180gr JHP for several years, but have not been able to find any more for sale. I t may be time to look in other avenues and your testing is leading the way.

__________________
On the Oak Savannah

...no argument here...Silvertip is an excellent round. Some peoples theory on stopping someone varies however... The .45 Colt round with a 255 round nose flat point has been a proven stopper of men...

Bob

...no, I had used up all the WD and refilled with water.

Other tests from two years ago...

...if you gotta get through something before you get to the target..this is the round...







It went through the carton, blowing it apart and the four backup jugs then buried itself in the vest insert...and cracked the backup jug behind it.... No other .41 round came close to this performance. All the others stopped in the second to third jug...

Great round that was only on the market a couple of years....













The whole tests are here...more to come next spring...

...a few bullets tests... - 24hourcampfire


Bob

Awesome thread. Thanks for sharing the fun. The 41 is too much gun for me tho.

...once you have the right gun and ammo combination you might be surprised. With a .41 you are not as dependent on velocity as you are with a .35 caliber gun...

Bob

To the OP, an absolutely super thread, many thanks.

I agree with Badge re Silvertip in the factory load category. Not easy to find much in the way of factory SD ammo in .41; Silvertip (still mfg'd?) seems the best. While the OP does not test it, the old .41 SWC service load is no joke, either.

The late NYPD gunfighter Jim Cirillo never stopped looking for the ideal handgun stopper load, even long after retirement from the cops and the Feds. I remember a magazine article (or book chapter) he wrote, in which he believed a .41 Mag load with a wadcutter bullet, his handload, would be ideal. I do not recall whether it was cup pointed. Does anyone? I know he carried a .40 Glock at the end of his life, a bore close to .41.

Is this a great thread, or what?

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

I have to look but I think my copy of Cirillo's book is out on loan. His "Fellon Grabber" loads were a HP design. In the semi-auto calibers they had a nose cone glued on that would come off on impact and the ragged HP would open up very quickly.

I believe his Glock was a .40 caliber but as I recall it was a 10mm not a .40 S&W...

Bob

For those that appreciate the .41 magnum as I do you have my respect. I'd sooner tote a .41 than a .44 magnum although the ole' .45 Colt is also a winner when loaded properly. As I remember, Sheriff Buford Pusser, god rest him, carried a .41 magnum loaded with a 170 grain loading. I believe there is someone on this board who loaded the rounds for him. Either way it's a grand round and certainly will not fail you if you do your part.

Thanks for the test SuperMan. I carry the Winchester 175gr STHP for decades in my 58 and other .41s. Main reason is the availability of the load. Only place I've seen lots of .41 mag for sale was in Alaska two years ago (both Anchorage and Fairbanks).


CD

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De Oppresso Liber

That would be my recommendation also. The Winchester® load is very accurate & low recoil; and the load I use for SD.

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David
CW3 USA (Ret) 1968-1990

Silvertips have been my carry load in my 57 for over 30 years. Accurate and reliable with very manageable recoil.

The only complaint about Silvertips was lack of penetration in 357 Magnum, 38 Special and 9MM. Penetration was never a problem in 41 Magnum, 10MM or 44 Magnum. It is an excellent defense load in those calibers. Plus they look like the ammo the Lone Ranger carried.

Shot a few of the 180 C.O.P. ammo yesterday from a Taurus Titanium Tracker...very controllable and put 5 rounds in a palm size group at 23 yards double action....

Also shot some of those 205 grain cast Accurate bullets and they did about the same...

Bob

Good info. Thanks for posting.

I was wondering why you were complaining about the recoil of your 357NG in the first post. Now that I see it's picture I know why. I only shoot my Nightguards with the factory rubber grips on. The wood grips are on for show, not the range. I have forgotten to change them before I went to the range & my old hands didn't like it. They're just too lightweight but shooting the lighter bullets helps.

Does your 357NG extract magnum loads okay? Mine always has sticky extraction issues before my 657-5 Classic Hunter does. It's chambers seem to have less taper to them. That's the only reason I can see for it. How's yours?

.

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Waiting for the break of day

I have about 25 rounds of the R41MG2's. How do they compare for SD through my 58? Thanks.

Great thread, BTW.

BlueDot...I have tried the Pachmayer Compacs that came on the NG but they just didn't fit my hand well. As I don't shoot the gun very much the wood works fine. As to extraction of the full Magnum loads...no clue as I prefer the mid-range ammo such as the Silvertip/CorBon 170s/C.O.P. so none have been fired in it. I have fired six rounds of full loads in the 357PD and extraction was fine.

W4...which round is the R41MG2? I am not home so I can't check the boxes. That said, any Remington round round is going to work just fine... If the G2 is the 210 Lead SWC at 950 it will work about the same a good .45 ACP round but with a little better penetration.

Bob

FWIW...spoke to Peter Pi, owner of CorBon at the 2012 SHOT Show. When he was a LEO he carried a 58. He said he has always carried the 170 JHP ammo but since doing tests on the new ammo using the Barnes 180 all copper HP he has switched over to that.

Federal, CorBon and Barnes all make rounds using that bullet. It is the one I carry when urban carrying a .41. The copper HP opens up real quickly and at 1350 fps is going to create a large temporary wound cavity/shock area.

Bob

I'm kind of late getting here.
Thanks for posting those results.
I favor the Win. 175 Silvertip for defense, it's controlable & hits pretty hard.

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I like the 175gr Silvertips as well. The Speer Gold Dots are also an excellent choice in .41 mag.

.41 yeah.............................

__________________
dd884
JMHO-YMMV

...I have such a big can because I use it for everything..except lubrication...

More tests to come... Just got a 250 grain version of that big flat point...now if it would just stop snowing...

Bob

*
I think that is the 170 grain SJHP, which seemed to be a scaled up version of the very successful 125 SJHP in .357. I think I had some for a while, but it was hard to find and expensive. I don't recall what it was like to shoot, but I suspect it was pretty hot and a bit unpleasant. There is a real difference between qualifying with a load on the typical silly qualification course and being able to use it well under realistic conditions. The mid range SWCs seems like a winner for social use in the .41.

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NHI, 10-8.

I'm staying tuned for more tests.
We're supposed to get a storm tonight too. It's turned from a nice sunny 40 degree day to a cloudy, windy, 40 degree day.

Hopefully I can find some more 175gr WW Silvertips.

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Barnes is now manufacturing their own ammunition.

41 Magnum was recently added to the lineup. My care package just arrived last week but I have not had a chance to chrono them yet.





It is a long way down those hollow points

Muzzle Velocity is listed at 1520 but I have no idea from what barrel. Fortunately I have everything from 2" to 20" to test it in.

Colt SAA
Are those leadless bullets?

I'm a huge fan of the Colt SAA also!

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Yeah, they are all copper and as far as I know, have performed well in all calibers for social use. I'd think that anything over about 1200 fps in a 4" revolver would be pretty unpleasant for older hands. I also bet that those are pretty awful on the wallet, too.

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NHI, 10-8.

I have shot the Federal vesion of that load and it really isn't that unpleasant...and runs in the 1300s.

Was speaking with Peter Pi, owner of CorBon, at the 2012 SHOT Show...he is a .41 fan and said he carried a Model 58 when he was in LE. He had been carrying his 170 grain load but said he has now switched to the 180 Barnes in the CorBon loading.

There is also a company name C.O.P. (copper only projectiles) that has close to the same bullet but a bigger HP. It is running 1100 from my 4" guns and is actually pleasant to shoot in the AirLite guns...it is what I have in the NightGuard now...

Bob

Groo here
I believe the 41 mags for Pusser were loaded by J.D. Jones [SSK]
If you can carry reloads or have a Custom Manufacturer [ mine is Kudu
Kustom]
You might look at GT Bullets.
They have #4 41mag boolets [ #3 Are HP]
The most interesting being a 215 gr SWC-HP.
With a 1000 FPS loading , they may be just the ticket.

I think had the .41 mag been brought out with a lighter say 175-180gr bullet in the high 1000fps range it might have made a hit with law enforcement?

As is it is a pretty good defense round.
I have shot the WW Silver Tip & it's comfortable to shoot.

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Frank,
The problem with that idea is that in 1965, there were no jacketed hollow point bullets that would expand reliably when driven to only 1000 FPS. Hard cast had not hit the commercial industry yet and the swagged bullets that the commercial ammunition companies were using at the time would severely lead the barrels going that fast.

Look at a 1964 Shooters Bible and you will find that the .357 and .44 Magnum didn't have any jacketed rounds for them. The JSP .41 Magnum was the first of the three to get a jacketed bullet.

Bob

Colt SAA

You are correct I remember when the first Super Vels hit the market wow.
They were pretty fast & no leading. I have seen what a heavy lead bullet @ 800-1000fps will do in the game field & think it'd be great for defense.


Hey I found a box of WW 175gr Silvertips.

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Superman,
Being a long time follower of the .41 Mag, I have really enjoyed this thread! Thanks for the good work!
Dick

Superman thanks for the great information on this thread.
Do you know if the information on the box of Matts Bullets is still a good contact address?
Thanks.

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Contact information is still good but last I spoke to him he was no longer making those .41 HP wadcutters...he said his mold had worn out but knowing one can not wear out a MP mold my guess would be that they were a pain to cast and he just took them out of the lineup.

I bought one of the molds and it is one of the more difficult to cast with.

Bob

Thanks SuperMan.

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This thread makes me really miss my .41 Blackhawk. I still have a few rounds loaded with Blue Dot powder from before it became a no-no.

I saw a 4-5/8" Ruger Blackhawk at the local GS Sat.

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I prefer the longer barrel myself, 6-1/2 inches.

Since these were mentioned in posts # 19 & 35,here's the C.O.P. 41s'.

Attached Images

DSCN2361%20SkewampCampAampA%2041cals%20flat%20S_zpskoejoldt.jpg (227.8 KB, 2 views)

I pretty much like the 4", 4-5/8", 4-3/4, & 5-1/2" bbl lengths.
You do get more steam from the longer bbls. though.

I found a box of WW 175gr Silvertips the other day...
Made me happy.

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You killed a bronco? Did you have it mounted? Lol sorry I couldn't pass it up. But did you hit the engine?

I have some cor-bon 41mag but they say not to shoot cor-bon ammo in the smiths it's too hot?

Nah, a kid I stopped was joy riding in a friend's Dad's Bronco.

He tried to run me down and I went up over the hood. I put a round thru the tail gate and into the radio in the dash.

His solution for explaining the bullet hole was to go the PD and report a car load of Mexicans was chasing him.
My radio was faster and a WHP at the PD put two and two together and arrested him.

Technically, my one shot made him stop at a place where he was apprehended.
Does that count??



No, the tie isn't bullet proof. That is the bullet I dug out of the Bronco radio and made a tie tack out of it.

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Eccentric old coot

41 mag.may just be my fav.caliber....I reload which with 41 mag.is pretty much mandatory

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KK4EMO