.38 Special+P 158 gr. LHP vs. 125 gr SJHP

Doug.38PR · Jun 9, 2015

Pros and Cons of each. For the past 10 years I have been, and still am, a consistent carrier of the old F.B.I. Load (Remington 158 gr LHP .38 +P). They expand very well in sand and, on online research, penetrate deeper and expand better and have a good track record.

However, to help a friend out, I traded a box of them for some Remington 125 gr +P SJHP that have been sitting in my ammo supply for about 7 years. I recently had some firsthand experience with a snake to illustrate to me just how effective these rounds are compared to the 158 gr LHP. The 158 makes BIG holes in snakes. The 125 just blows them in half it tears the flesh so.

Anyway, I just wanted to hear the pros and cons of each, the different experiences of each. Have at it.

Nevada Ed · Jun 9, 2015

True the 158gr lead FBI load is a great load in a 3" or longer barrel.

The old style SJHP 125gr that is a standard Remington and Winchester bullet loading may be ok in a 4" barrel but..........

in a 38 snub nose they plug up with material and fail a lot of gel test. One youtube had the first Remington plug. The shooter got the layers of Levi over the gel for a second try and this time, it was found, plugged again!!

Good snake medicine, though.

kaaskop49 · Jun 9, 2015

As with many loads, there are different generations of R-P 125 JHPs. The originals seem to have been loaded with a large charge of slow-burning powder. Even a 16" carbine bbl wouldn't burn it all, personal experience. A later generation, also in nickeled cases, had a faster burning powder which performed best in 4" and longer bbls. The present loads, found in 100rd packs in WM and with brass-colored cases, are noticeably warmer than the W-W equivalent.

All of them seem to be loaded with a relatively hard JHP with a very narrow cavity. Don't know how they would expand: they still seem to be dialed for 6" bbls and longer. I have examples of all generations, but prefer to stick with my original 158gr LHPs, the ones chrono'd at 1014 fps in 4".

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

Doug.38PR · Jun 9, 2015

kaaskop49 said:
As with many loads, there are different generations of R-P 125 JHPs. The originals seem to have been loaded with a large charge of slow-burning powder. Even a 16" carbine bbl wouldn't burn it all, personal experience. A later generation, also in nickeled cases, had a faster burning powder which performed best in 4" and longer bbls. The present loads, found in 100rd packs in WM and with brass-colored cases, are noticeably warmer than the W-W equivalent.

All of them seem to be loaded with a relatively hard JHP with a very narrow cavity. Don't know how they would expand: they still seem to be dialed for 6" bbls and longer. I have examples of all generations, but prefer to stick with my original 158gr LHPs, the ones chrono'd at 1014 fps in 4".

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

The 125 gr clocked 1014 fps in 4? or 158 gr LHP?

Yorkie Man · Jun 9, 2015

I have a backstop in my garage that I test loads in while developing new loads and I have fired thousands of the popular handgun calibers. The box is about two feet long filled with sand and an old bullet proof vest in the back. The only bullets to make it to the vest are the heavier 45 acp and 45 colt loads at standard velocity. The heavier bullets in most calibers penetrate deeper than the lighter higher velocity loads. The 158's in the 38 spl have always penetrated deeper than the +p+ 125 hp's in the 38. I realize this is not a very scientific method but from what I have seen I now use the heavier bullets in my handguns rather than the lighter faster ones when I am concerned about penetration to reach a vital organ to stop the threat fast.

Nevada Ed · Jun 9, 2015

That "Box of sand" reminds me of the time I took a cardboard box out in the Nevada desert and filled it up with alkali dirt and shot a 70gr speer from a 22-250 into it to see what the bullet looked like.

No holes in the back of the box so there were two bullets in there some where..................
Never found any thing. No copper or lead.......... weird.

kaaskop49 · Jun 9, 2015

Doug.38PR said:
The 125 gr clocked 1014 fps in 4? or 158 gr LHP?

In the '76 or '77 Law Enforcement Handgun Digest, the WW 158gr LHP clocked 1014 fps from a 4" Model 10. As Casey Stengel would say, "You could look it up!" Cordially, and good shooting!

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

Doug M. · Jun 9, 2015

If you mean the 125 grain load I think, I would probably stick with the "FBI" load. I am pretty sure that the 125 grain bullet was designed for .357 Magnum velocities, and it had a heck of a reputation in that cartridge. The .38 Special velocities are substantially lower, especially in a less than 4" barrel, and proper bullet performance is much less likely.

Remember that both loads are at least 2, maybe more, generations of technological improvement in bullet development behind the curve.

bmcgilvray · Jun 9, 2015

Doug.38PR;

Funny you should mention shooting snakes. I've popped at least a couple of rattlesnakes with the 158 grain +P loads and would have described the results to be the same as your description of the 125 grain load that you mention. It kinda disassembled them. I've wondered why. The load gives about 875-925 fps from my 4-inch Model 10 which was employed for snake ballistic testing on those occasions.

I'm unreasonably prejudiced against bullets significantly lighter than the 158 grain weight in both the .38 Special and the .357 Magnum, prefering to relegate them to more insignificant cartridges like .380 and 9mm (heh!).

The lighter 125s are probably fine. I just like bullet weight.

ContinentalOp · Jun 10, 2015

If I had to choose between those two loads, I'd choose the FBI load mostly due to a track record of good performance. There may also be a difference in POA/POI between the two loads with most, if not all, .38/.357 fixed-sight revolvers being regulated for 158gr loads. At least the ones I'm aware of.

Doug.38PR · Jun 10, 2015

kaaskop49 said:
In the '76 or '77 Law Enforcement Handgun Digest, the WW 158gr LHP clocked 1014 fps from a 4" Model 10. As Casey Stengel would say, "You could look it up!" Cordially, and good shooting!

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

Because I get around 950 ft per second out of the Remington 158 gr LHP +P. that's not too far behind, but still, over 1000 ft per second that's pretty good for a heavy modern .38 special round

chief38 · Jun 11, 2015

The old stand-by FBI loads by Remington, Winchester & Federal are still made but are really watered down (to NON +P spec's) now and IMHO there are much better choices these days:

Speer Gold Dots
Buffalo Bore
Remington Golden Saber
Federal HST

If you insist on using the old and tired FBI loads (from the big three) the best of the bunch is the Remington, BUT the BB 158 grain +P LSWCHP-GC runs about 250 fps faster than the same type of Remington out of a 2" tube AND the Speer GD +P 135 grain is also heads and tails above the old FBI loadings as well. IMHO the "Big Three" FBI loads are NOW sort of has-beens.........

Doug.38PR · Jun 11, 2015

chief38 said:
The old stand-by FBI loads by Remington, Winchester & Federal are still made but are really watered down (to NON +P spec's) now IMHO the "Big Three" FBI loads are NOW sort of has-beens.........

Really?

I have consistently clocked my Remington +P LHP loads out of my Model 15 and Colt Official Police at right around 950 feet per second out of 4 inch barrels. That's right up there in top notch +P territory seems to me.

Otreb · Jun 12, 2015

The remfedchester variety 125gr loads underwhelm me at the chrono with readings in the mid to high 800fps range. The rem Golden Saber does mid 900s in my 2.5" .38... Which is better, but I also much prefer the 158gr lead hollowpoints in any of my .38s except the tiny Taurus 1.41" bbl- which gets a hot 110gr load.

badge 851 · Jun 13, 2015

Between the two loads I would choose the one that was most accurate in my gun.

gtoppcop · Jun 13, 2015

Great post guys! I like the R-P FBI Load and consider it the best of the "Big Three" in that particular loading.

The track record from the street makes it one of the best .38 Specials of all time. The R-P loading has much softer lead and slightly higher velocity. What's weird is that in my 4-inch barrels, it doesn't lead whatsoever.

I really like the load. It's accurate, can be shot all day long and has some punch for 'Felon Repellent' purposes. I keep 2-3 boxes of it around the house.

My 'Go-To' load for all of my .38s and .357s (2,3 and 4 inch guns) is the R-P 125gr Golden Saber in the Special +P. I find that its accuracy, punch, cleanliness and shootability rank it up there with the best loads. It's my 'house load' in all guns.

I do like the Buffalo Bore 158gr LSWCHP +P very much. It is one serious load. I remember shooting a box of 20 in my Model 19-5 4-inch and came away with a bruised hand. It has some serious "horsepower" out of a 4-inch gun. I did try it in my 2-inch Model 39 Bodyguard and put it down after one round. Too much of a good thing in an Airweight snub!

Getting back to the FBI load. Just because it's old, it doesn't mean ineffective. I believe it dates back to 1972 when the FBI was looking for something to shoot out of their 4 and 2-1/2 inch Model 10s. The Chicago PD (and other Departments) picked it up shortly thereafter and reported decent performance out of their service revolvers.

If I'm correct in presuming, this load had a long history in the service of the citizens of Chicago, being replaced several years ago by the Speer 135gr GDHP. Maybe the Chicago guys can speak up.

In closing, it is an exceedingly good (and very potent) load out of 3 and 4 inch guns. Even in 2 inch guns it's decent. At 900-950 fps (depending on gun) it's more than enough to repel two-legged predators (and the occasional rattlesnake).

Just my $.02 worth...

badge 851 · Jun 13, 2015

The 158gr LSWCHP+P 38 Special load is known as the...
• Chicago Load
• Dallas Load
• FBI Load
• Metro Load
• etc...

gunsrfun1 · Jun 13, 2015

Let's see now ... you shoot a snake with one load and it puts a hole in him, and you shoot him with the other and hit cuts him in half. I'd say in either case you got the job done.
Ditto if you have to use these in self-defense. Would anyone really tell you that they prefer to be hit with one load vs. the other?
I'd feel comfortable carrying either -- as long as I can hit the target.

CCantu357 · Jul 3, 2015

I tend to prefer the 158 FBI/Metro load in .38, but I do like the Golden Saber as well. The .357 GS is quite mild for a magnum, but from what I gather the .38 GS is on the hot side for a .38 Special.

Pointblank2U · Jul 3, 2015

The round matters very little. Your accuracy matters a lot. All these online and company-sponsored ammunition tests are selling you a bill of goods. The truth be told, you are more likely than not to hit bone when shooting an assailant in the torso. This totally changes the game. Most handgun rounds fail miserably after hitting bone. Take a look at BrassFetcher's website.

.38 Special+P 158 gr. LHP vs. 125 gr SJHP

Member

US Veteran

Member

Member

Member

US Veteran

Member

Member

SWCA Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

US Veteran

Member

US Veteran

Member

Member

US Veteran

Similar threads