Found this today:

Why the Winchester 9mm NATO Bulk Ammo May be Bad for Your Pistol


After the recent ammo drought, it’s good to see relatively cheap bulk pistol ammo returning to store shelves. But ammo buyers need to be aware that not everything is as it seems and not all ammo is created equal.

I found this Winchester “150 Round Value Pack” of 9mm NATO 124 gr ammo for sale at my local Gander Mountain for $49.99 recently. That works out to about $16.66 per 50, which is not bad for reloadable brass cased 9mm in the current market.

That is, until you read the (very) fine print on the bottom of the box that says, “These cartridges are loaded to military velocity and pressure; average pressure is 10% to 15% higher than industry standard pressure for 9mm Luger.”

This is obviously part of some military contract overrun packaged in bulk as cheap plinking ammo. The problem is the “10% to 15%” higher pressure puts this square in the 9mm +P category. The Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturer’s Institute (SAAMI) actually goes as far as to list 9mm NATO as being “unsafe” for firearms chambered in the standard 9mm Luger caliber.

While the SAAMI recommendation may be overly cautious, the reality is that 9mm NATO spec ammo should only be shot through those pistols rated for 9mm +P ammo. While this does include most modern pistol designs, such as those made by GLOCK, HK, Sig Sauer, etc., there are modern pistols not rated for these higher pressures and a large number of older pistols out there that are not +P rated.

And, even if shooting higher pressure ammo through any particular pistol is safe, it does increase the wear and tear on the pistol’s components.

I didn't know Berettas and Glocks in the US Military were specced higher?

Also, 32 cpr is expensive for 9mm, I pay 20 cpr. 32 cpr is higher than the .45 ammo I buy.

Thanks for the information. I saw those packs for sale at Gander but I passed on buying any. Glad I did with this info. I shoot anything cheap in my Glock with cost between 20 and 30 cents per round.

SAAMI always plays it safe, because that is there job. They exist to keep people safe, to make sure guns aren't blowing up in your face. It leads to the old issue of what round can I fire from my particular gun, because groups like SAAMI have to shoot for the lowest common denominator in any particular cartridge. Thus, .38 Special is pretty gutless without +p to keep factory loads safe for even old and weaker pistols, leading to decreased performance for most guns that can safely handle more powerful regular loads for a lifetime. Its why there are three pressure ratings for 45-70 in reloading, for trap door, stronger actions, and big boys like the Ruger falling block that can go all the way to the highest pressures that can be safely repeated. Even if your modern steel gun can handle some harder stuff every shot for its conceivable lifespan, it will be fed a steady diet of lighter factory loads so it won't hurt a weaker action/older steel. Kinda like making everybody at a conference eat soup because there are enough elderly people without teeth who cannot chew solid food anymore.

The best way to explain firearm strength is probably through traditional proofing houses and methods. You only have to build a gun strong enough to fire the rounds its rated for, to survive proof testing, and fire safely what it is intended for, for a lifespan of the weapon. Some builders will underengineer as much as possible, making the gun as light as possible, while others overbuild so much that they can handle far more than what it was designed for. K frame .357 magnums have had a long history of cracked frames and failures when a steady flow of magnum rounds put through them, even though they are rated and safely handle them. They can pass the proof test, but only just, and even then, not enough for a lifespan. Again, we take the Ruger falling block, rated for 28,000 CUP rounds by SAAMI, yet it is well known and practiced to put rounds of 50,000 CUP through them, every day, without any danger to such a mighty and heavily built piece. Simply put, SAAMI makes sure the guns and ammo you buy don't explode, they don't rate how well or strong the guns are made.

9mm has been around for over a century, there are guns of various builds and strengths, and for the civilian shooter, SAAMI opted to keep pressures lower to protect everyone. Any NATO pistol will obviously be fine, as for most modern steel pistols. However, there are MANY manufacturers who, even in the modern age, build very light and cheap pistols, engineered to the very least they can, that could easily have trouble with +p and NATO rounds. If you carry a cheaper, lighter, or older handgun in 9mm, Mr. Neuron's advice is worth listening to. It is also correct that it will probably wear down even military grade pistols that handle them no problem a bit faster.

In my case, my Uzi carbine actually doesn't work well with lower power ammunition. For a big, heavy blowback gun, lower pressures and performance equals poor reliability because they can barely cycle the weapon. In my case, a lifelong diet of +p or NATO surplus is actually a good thing.

NATO-spec ammunition is loaded to about the same level as European 9mm historically has been. American levels have generally been lower. Any decent 9mm pistol should do just fine with the Winchester ammo. Tests after WW2 showed showed issue 123-4 grain ammunition from Germany to be going at about 1200fps for an old WW1 era lot and 1240fps for a WW2 lot when fired from a P-38 (H.P. White Company tests). While velocity doesn't always run hand-in-hand with pressure, I think it's safe to say that 9mm NATO isn't going to harm your pistol. This comes up fairly regularly.

The Win Nato spec 124 gr ammo is not loaded to +P level according
to Win. For those who like this ammo realize that it is available from
sgammo.com way cheaper than Gander's price.

It's obvious the OP is a newbie as this is much ado about nothing. NATO ammo is not hot by any means. Just do a Google search of chrono results for it. The NATO spec window is very wide. If it weren't no one would be selling it. Relax.

have some left ...winchester law enforcement 115 gr. jhp , rated +p+ . loved shootin it in my glock and some other +p ammo . feels like the gun just is more snappy & works better than the standard pressure stuff .
if you are not shootin a ton of the stuff ,you wont have a worry . even a few dozen rounds now & then should be good to go .

9 NATO, 9 +P, 9 +P+ are all still 9mm Luger. Any service semi auto will handle them just fine and in large quantities. Beretta, Glock, Sig, HK, S&W M&P, Walther PPQ, older S&W 3rd gen, 9mm 1911. They will all handle NATO spec just fine. Yea there is more wear but unless youre,shooting thousands of rounds a day of it you'll likely never notice. For instance when HK first came out with their USP line their test pistols fired more than 30,000 high pressure +P cartridges and 6,000 proof loads without damage or excessive wear to any major components. Abuse and function-testing of USPs have seen more than 20,000 rounds of .40 S&W fired without a component failure

Even smaller guns state that NATO or +P is fine in limited quantity.

If you don't want yours let me know maybe we can work out a deal

Walther 9mm's are the only pistols I know of where the manufacturer specifically warns against the use of any, '+P+' ammo. I've run plenty of, '+P+' ammo through my G-19. Not a problem! I may head on over to Gander Mountain and checkout Winchester's latest offering - I mean it can't possibly be as filthy to shoot as that, 'white box' junk they sell. Can it?

Here! Read Section 2. Ammunition

My Glock 19 swallows NATO ammo like they were Pez candy.

Then again, I've shot NATO out of all of my 9mm's and never had a problem. It's not something I use all of the time, so I'm not terribly worried about premature wear and tear on my pistols.

__________________
-Mike-

I am sorry, but I am always amused by these "revelations" concerning NATO spec ammo, which is not that hot as compared to +P+ and other American LE ammo.

Do you think S&W was unaware of the pressure of 9mm NATO ammo when it submitted the 459 to the US Military trials in the early 1980s? Do you think S&W was unaware of the use by Illinois State Police, and most other agencies, of +P+ ammo during the 80s and 90s? Do you think when S&W designed the MILITARY & Police line that they were unaware of the pressures of .40 S&W, which is higher than 9mm NATO?

Go shoot your ammo, and enjoy your pistol.

Data I have read out of a 4" 9mm has......
the 115gr ball at 1236 fps
the 124gr ball at 1185 fps with the Euro CIP at 36,500 psi.
The USA +P spec is 38,500 psi but both loadings are well over the "Standard" 32,000 psi, 9mm Luger specs.

The higher pressure loads were made for the machine guns
that needed more pressure to work the actions..... not the pistols back in those days. ( 1944 )

Today most think Nato is standard ammo for todays weapons while the company ammo for the 115gr is normally around 1180 fps or lower and the 124gr is at 1150 fps or lower, depending on the makers.

"the 124gr ball at 1185 fps with the Euro CIP at 36,500 psi."
That is essentially the performance level of the M882 9mm U. S. Military load. The exact U. S. military specification for the peak chamber pressure limit of the M882 is 34,519 psi max. average (NATO piezo method in the 7.848" NATO standard test barrel). The actual maximum average test level for ammo off the production line is typically closer to 33,000 PSI. This I know because I spent some time at Winchester's factory at East Alton doing M882 testing. I have considerable personal experience with M9 pistols (Beretta 92) which have fired hundreds of thousands of rounds with no damage. And to a lesser extent the M11 pistol (SIG P228). And there are now some Glocks in military use shooting the very same load. The M882 is unquestionably completely safe in such pistols. There may be some schlock 9mm pistols out there which could be damaged by firing M882, but I have no idea as to what they might be.

Since I got my first chronograph over thirty years ago I have
chronographed a wide variety of 9mm ammo. One thing is certain,
9mm is made all over the world and you absolutely cannot go by the
stated ballistics of much of any of it. I have Portuguese 124 gr ammo
with the Nato cross that runs 1140 fps out of a Browning HP and
Norinco 124 gr with no special marking that runs 1220 fps out of the
same gun. My WCC89 Nato 9mm runs about 1200 fps out of the HP.
I have 115 gr FMJ from a US company that is not marked +P that
clocks over 1260 fps from the HP. I had a box of Aguila 115 gr FMJ
from about twenty years ago that ran about 1225 fps and some of
their current junk that only averages about 1060 fps with a few
rounds that failed to break 1000 fps. My ZQI 124 gr Nato runs about
1160 fps which is not bad. I don't have any but I think the concern
about the commercial Nato marked ammo from Winchester is much
ado about nothing as mentioned. Chronograph it along with current
military issue and I'll bet money the commercial ammo is slower.

From what I have read, most commercial bulk ammo is loaded lighter than what we used to get. 1200 fps used to be the standard. I also figure that the Lawyer made'm put that on the box.

Every pistol is a law unto itself when it comes to MV and grouping capability, even with identical ammo. And barrel length can make a big difference in MV. The factories use standard test barrels (NATO or SAAMI) to determine performance for QC purposes, but their results are likely somewhat different than you will get from your pistol. Factories typically do not load to a specific MV, but rather to a chamber pressure range (somewhat below maximum).

Yeah I'm well aware of what you're saying and that's why I
said that you cannot go by ballistics tables to accurately
predict how a given load will perform in your gun. These are
some of the reasons why I own a chronograph and think any
serious shooter or handloader should own one. Many times
when chronographing factory ammo such as 9mm, .380 or
.223 which I don't handload I do comparisons. I usually
shoot several different loads from the same gun or one or
two loads from two or more different guns. I believe my
own chronographed results from my own guns and not
any factory published ballistics tables.

ATTENTION: Anyone in possession of this dangerous ammo may send it to my address to be properly disposed of free of charge