Am I reading it correctly?

Seems to show that up to about 45 feet the 45 will hit approx 2 inches high and at 60 feet will hit at point of aim with a standard drop after 60 feet to 300 feet....

???? What say the experts here?

Depends on the bullet weight and velocity.

It all depends on the power/load factor but the .45 ACP is known to have the famous "rainbow arc" trajectory compared to, say, the 9 mm or the .357 in handgun rounds.

I do not know about the .40 S&W, the .38 Special, etc.

But since handgun rounds are meant, practically, for short ranges, it really doesn't matter. Yes, I know handguns can be
used out to 50, 100, 200 yards but that's not the everyday
defense situation.

300 feet surely you jest.
Go watch hickok45 shooting out to 80 yards with the .45 A.C.P.

A major league pitcher could throw straighter and harder.

Beyond 25 yards the .45 ain't worth a darn.
Up close and personal social work a tad better than a belly gun.
But a darn could one within it's design.


You want long, straight and hard, get ya a 357 Sig.

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Mulebuk Sam and the Governor

I figure a 45acp is good for reliable, effective hits out to 50 yards.

Think the width of an NFL football field (53 yards).

My experience is that, at that range, I can easily kill a 200 lb deer.

I regularly practice at that range.

I have!! Seen hickok45 with a 45 hit the gong 4 out of 6 shots so yes it can be done. My post is directed at understanding the reasonable self defense grouping effective range of the 45 not long range plinking

Good point.
I'm not sure but it's my favorite. That's my real heat and backup to my .380 in route.
I'd say 50 yards max, but I never practice in yards. The cops use what they call the 21 ft. rule
my rule is 15 feet or less.

__________________
Mulebuk Sam and the Governor

Let's say.....

That the tip of your front sight is about 5/8in above center bore. And let's say that you hold on target at the tip of the front sight and at 25yds strikes center (zero).

Using standard 230gr RN with a muzzle velocity of 850fps... trajectory would be something like this.

Yd FPS Strike below point of aim (inches)
0 850 .625
5 847 .24
10 844 0
15 840 +.13
20 837 +.13
25 834 0
30 831 .25
35 828 .62
40 825 1.1
45 822 1.7
50 819 2.5
55 816 3.4
60 813 4.4
65 810 5.6
70 807 6.8
75 804 8.2
80 802 9.8
85 799 11.5
90 796 13.3
95 793 15.2
100 790 17.4

As long as you can aim it... there is only about a 60fps difference between muzzle velocity and striking 100yds. Head shots are chest hits at 100yds.

Ballistic Calculator GunData.org

I don't think he is saying it can't be done, I think he is commenting on the fact that you can track the bullet as it flies through the air and into that gong, because it is so heavy and slow.

My Tommy gun with the 16 inch barrel averages about 950 fps with hardball and plain lead 230 grain bullets that fire from a 1911 at 830 fps. At 100 yards, the iron sights that Kahr Auto Ordnance put on my carbine are incorrect, both the giant hole main sight and the upper longer range sight, and Kentucky windage is necessary. One time a buddy of mine put out a 6 inch frozen old pumpkin at 100 yards for me to shoot, I plugged it consistently and accurately offhand, but I either had to hold the peep sight roughly 6 inches high or the higher sight 6 inches low to be dead on.

I've had better success with my 6.0 grains Unique and 255 semi wad cutters that push 1079 fps out of the Thompson with a better BC to boot, but the dope tables are still not that impressive. In any case, I've screwed around with my pistols and pistol carbines at longer ranges for fun, and if you like plinking long range with 45 ACP you better get used to holding high.

Also bear in mind, that although the bullet may strike higher on the target before reaching the distance the gun is zeroed at, a bullet never rises from the plane of the bore after being fired. From the instant it leaver the muzzle, gravity rules, and it begins to drop. It is the height of the sights above bore center that effect how high a shot will hit at other than the distance it is zeroed at.

Larry

I am far from being an expert marksman, but I can put five rounds of .45 ACP Plus-P Federal 230 grain JHP into the head area of the B-27 target offhand at 25 yards with a standard Colt Gov't Model all day long.

At 100 yards, I can keep five out of five of the same rounds into the body of a B-27 target either from prone or from a bench to rest my elbows I aim about a head above the top of the target's head and the bullets generally drop enough to hit the target in it's torso.

I once shot a handgun metallic silhouette match with my Colt Gold Cup. Cleaned the chickens, hit most of the pigs but only 4 of them fell, hit 6 of the turkeys but none of them fell and hit 5 rams and, maybe because of the breeze, one of them fell.

Sounds to me like you have your feet and yards confused. Because a 2 inch drop from 45 to 60 feet doesn't make the least bit of sense. Actually even in yards that doesn't sound kosher.

First you'd have to define the distance of "reasonable self defense". Conventional wisdom says most are within 21 feet. So for illustration purposes let's more than double that to 50 feet.

The question of "effective range the .45" would relate to velocity loss from muzzle to 50 feet. With 45ACP in the chart above that's about 10fps which is insignificant. The ammo will have greater inherent velocity inconsistencies with each shot fired regardless of distance. Even at 50 yards there is only a 30fps difference. Again, ammo inconsistencies (extreme spread) will rival that. Barrel length, 3, 4 and 5in will have a greater influence.

Using sight over bore and zero as described earlier, there is only a total of three inches above and below line of sight (point of aim) out to 50 yards. That's well within the offhand shooting skills in a SD situation of 99.99+% of folks, and certainly within the scope of self defense.

Guns have different sight over bore distances and zero, as well as different barrel lengths and of course will vary with different ammo used. So all of that is an individual mix. But generally speaking, 45ACP will be as effective at arms length as it will be at any "reasonable self defense" distance.

The shooter is the greatest variable.

Thanks Chatt....makes a lot of sense.......

Scooter, the chart I am reading shows point of aim hit at 20 yards (60feet)...also shows point of aim high at less than 20 yards (although minimal) and then a rainbow arch drop past 20 yards to 100 yards.

At least that's the way I am reading the words on the chart....

Up until not that long ago, I was required to administer a handgun course that included a 50-yard line. I listened to a lot of excuses as to why the 50 was the primary reason for low scores. Some of those excuses included 45ACP bullet drop at that distance. After shooting a variety of 45 pistols carried by those who levied that excuse, I concluded that dipping, jerking, flinching, improper sight picture, etc, was the problem, not the pistol or bullet. My own experience with Glock 21s and M&P 45s reinforced my views that that ther is no significant drop beyond 25 when I was shooting qualification scores of 95-100 percent consistently. I have fired from that distance using the "problem" guns (Glock 30, chopped versions of the Sig 220, etc), and while some of them were not my first choice for carry, were not as inaccurate as was claimed. The only true way to see if a specific load has any significant loss of trajectory at distance is from a vise. Incidentally, I've dealt with the same excuses when shooting 2 inch J frames with wadcutter at greater distances, and even a Model 60 is more accurate at 50 yards that many will give credit - that without a vise.

Here is a graph of the variables used earlier.

Pretty flat trajectory out to 50 yards. Inches on left. Yards on bottom.

Now this chart (a little different than the ones I have been looking at) show POA at around 35 yards so I can see where the weight of the 45 and the load and where the gun is zeroed is going to also be a variable.....If I can stay within 3 inch groups at 25 yards with the 45 I will be happy.....thanks for all the info......

Offhand 3in groups at 25 yards is excellent shooting. Well beyond the expectations of any self defense shooting and skill level of most shooters.

I know.......I ain't there "YET" ....working hard on it though.45target2.jpg 45target4.jpg

Not entirely true. I've seen a guy shoot at (and hit) life size big horn sheep metal silhouettes at 200 meters. He was standing, to top it off.

Yeah, Babe Ruth use to swat them out as well, but then again how many are Babe Ruth.
I hear ya though.

I practice for self defense not pinging off in a distance. That means for me any way under 15 ft. , heck I could probably get away with a sling-shot and some marbles.
(I'm a terrible shot)

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Mulebuk Sam and the Governor

45 ACP is not a gun, it's not a howitzer, it's a MORTAR.

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I've still got it made.

According to Ballistic software (iPad), the bullet will be 1.24" high at 25 yards if zeroed at 50 yards, standard slow-fire outdoor range. It is higher at mid-point due to bore offset and bullet drop compensation at the maximum range.

There is surprisingly little loss of velocity with such an heavy, sub-sonic bullet. It's very accurate too. .45 ACP revolvers often achieve 1" groups at 25 yards from a bench rest.

If 1.24" matters at a range of less than 50 yards, you are one dangerous dude

I don't think Nolan Ryan would bet his arm and a baseball against a good shot with a 45 ACP at 80 yards. True that a lot of people can't hit anything at 25 yards, much less 80. It is not the cartridge. When I shoot 45 ACP it is usually out of a S&W 325 or 625. I really believe the revolver has an advantage at longer ranges mainly because the sights are better suited to long range. The guy who was my partner back in the 70s and 80s could put every round out of a 7 round magazine on a license plate at 50 yards every time with his Gold Cup National Match. He is gone now, but it is not because he lost a gunfight.

I have have the great fortune to know some gentlemen that frequent a little shooting contest in Ohio. It's called Camp Perry National Matches. I have a S.C. State Pistol Champion that shoots here regularly. If anybody doubts what a .45 target gun is capable of, with the right man behind it, Google the National Matches. The results are always decided by X ring counts. To give you an idea of what these men and guns are capable of, remember that a shooter with a 32 in sleeve, shooting a gun with .125 inch front sights and rears to match of proper width, the front sight covers 17 inches and with the light bars on either side 22 inches. These old boys shoot groups that are optically impossible. And yet they do. As has been mentioned above great things concerning great distances can be done by a man who knows what he is doing. As with most things again, it ain't the arrow, it's the Indian. I own a pistol that was used to fire the highest score ever fired in a National Match. Fired by CPO Don Hamilton in the late 1960s. His high aggregate still holds the record. NO!! I can't get out of his pistol what he did. I ain't that Indian.

There's more (less, actually) to a revolver than a longer sight radius. A stock SIG P220 is supposed to deliver a 2-1/2" group at 25 yards from a rest. A pistol has a lot of moving parts that affect alignment.

Another factor is the sight picture. A bullseye balanced on the tip of a 1/8" Patridge sight arguably offers the most consistent alignment short of a scope. Try it sometime. You'll shoot low if your sights are set for POI (Combat style), but the groups will be smaller than if the bullseye is covered by the sights. One hand is often more precise for slow and timed fire than two hands in a combat stance.

It makes you appreciate what the artists who shoot at Camp Perry can accomplish.