.357 mag-why is 125 gr. hotter than 158?

gfors · Dec 23, 2017

I started shooting 357 magnum about two years ago. In that time I’ve probably sent 700 or 800 rounds through my 686-6. These have been mostly 158 grain bullets (various store bought brands) and a few remaufactured 180 grain. I definitely felt the difference between the two. The heavier bullets “kicked” a bit more. Probably, that old action/reaction law, again.
Yesterday, I found an old box of Federal 125 gr. Hi-Shok JHP, in s can of inherited ammo. Holy cow!!! That stuff is nuclear. The recoil was like a rifle vs. shotgun (the 158 and 180 gr.). The boom was more of a “crack”, followed by little tornadoes of dust, that travelled half way down the 25 yard indoor range. What is it about the 125gr Hi-Shoks?

murphydog · Dec 23, 2017

See this thread from a very familiar website, from 2014 (post #12 is particularly illuminating and not from the muzzle flash

):

Federal 357B?

gfors · Dec 23, 2017

thanks for the link! great read.

ContinentalOp · Dec 23, 2017

Short answer: physics.

The heavier bullet accelerates slower, so the recoil you feel happens over a longer period of time, so it feels like a "push." The lighter bullet accelerates much more quickly, so the recoil energy is transmitted to the shooter much more quickly, so it feels like a "snap." Even if the rounds have the same muzzle energy, the time difference will affect the "feel" of the recoil.

I hope that makes sense.

gfors · Dec 23, 2017

ContinentalOp said:
Short answer: physics.

The heavier bullet accelerates slower, so the recoil you feel happens over a longer period of time, so it feels like a "push." The lighter bullet accelerates much more quickly, so the recoil energy is transmitted to the shooter much more quickly, so it feels like a "snap." Even if the rounds have the same muzzle energy, the time difference will affect the "feel" of the recoil.

I hope that makes sense.

Makes perfect sense. Thanks.
Why are the lighter bullets more effective on bad guys? I would think bigger is better, but it sounds like faster is better, based on my limited reading.

Lostaro · Dec 23, 2017

For me...125grn full house .357's aren't fun to shoot that's for sure. Lot's of muzzle blast from shorter guns too.

As for effectiveness on bad guys....I think the mass/velocity of 125grn .357s hits a happy medium that the human body just can't handle well.

Other weights are probably just as effective (eventually) but may not "shock" the system like a 125. I'm no expert, but it's hard to dismiss their excellent track record in the real world.

I don't think they're magic...but they're close

murphydog · Dec 23, 2017

gfors said:
Makes perfect sense. Thanks.
Why are the lighter bullets more effective on bad guys? I would think bigger is better, but it sounds like faster is better, based on my limited reading.

This is the subject of endless debate and speculation. There is no doubt of the historical effectiveness of the full 125 gr .357 load - probably a function of velocity, penetration and perhaps its tendency to fragment and cause multiple wound channels. Effectiveness of handguns in social encounters is still somewhat of a mystery science.

oysterer · Dec 23, 2017

I think hydro shock is related to speed, basically a shockwave traveling through the blood vessels. The lighter bullet has much more speed for that effect to take place. The larger bullet has more blunt stopping power I would image, long old debate 45 acp vs wonder 9s. I like shooting 45s, like the feel of energy exiting the gun rather than loud aggressive snap of the 9. I load 9mm with HS-6 and that is also a nice solid feel and very accurate without the aggressive snap.

REM 3200 · Dec 23, 2017

murphydog said:
This is the subject of endless debate and speculation. There is no doubt of the historical effectiveness of the full 125 gr .357 load - probably a function of velocity, penetration and perhaps its tendency to fragment and cause multiple wound channels. Effectiveness of handguns in social encounters is still somewhat of a mystery science.

The debate on the super-sonic BB VS. the sub-sonic telephone pole will probably go on forever.

I like the super-sonic telephone pole the best.

Warren Sear · Dec 23, 2017

Neither load is necessarily "hotter" than the other. That depends on the powder charge they are given.

The 125 grain hollow point loads have established a very credible track record as an effective (if not the most effective) combat cartridge. Not good for use in K frame revolvers, but that is another can of worms for another thread (which has already been beaten to death a number of times).

bigwheelzip · Dec 23, 2017

I tested the Federal C357B among other brands when I got my first handgun, a 4" 686+. I wanted to try it based on it's reputation, but I selected it as my standard self defense ammo because it goes to point of aim and it consistently groups the best.

I don't find it kicks any more than my 158gr plinking rounds, but it does sound louder.

Arik · Dec 23, 2017

gfors said:
Makes perfect sense. Thanks.
Why are the lighter bullets more effective on bad guys? I would think bigger is better, but it sounds like faster is better, based on my limited reading.

It's not necessar more effective. No one I ever read about could tell a difference between 158 and 125gr when getting hit. That being said the lighter bullet accelerates faster and has more energy behind it.

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Davinman · Dec 23, 2017

i have a couple boxes of the old remington R357M1 full power 125gr SJHP ammo. lemmy tell ya those sure do get your attention when you touch them puppys off, you can hit what your shooting at with the fire ball at close range lmao.

Warren Sear · Dec 23, 2017

Arik said:
It's not necessar more effective. No one I ever read about could tell a difference between 158 and 125gr when getting hit. That being said the lighter bullet accelerates faster and has more energy behind it.

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Not necessarily. It all depends upon the loading. A 125 grain loading could have more energy (or velocity), or a 158 could have more energy or velocity.

gfors · Dec 23, 2017

REM 3200 said:
The debate on the super-sonic BB VS. the sub-sonic telephone pole will probably go on forever.
I like the super-sonic telephone pole the best.

Hence, the .44 magnum?

Warren Sear · Dec 23, 2017

^^^ There's no such thing as a free lunch. There is a big trade-off for the 44 Magnum, which removes it from some practical uses that a 357 Magnum does not have to forfeit. Take your pick; you can't have it all, only what you perceive to be the best balance of attributes.

TomkinsSP · Dec 23, 2017

Arik said:
It's not necessar more effective. No one I ever read about could tell a difference between 158 and 125gr when getting hit. That being said the lighter bullet accelerates faster and has more energy behind it.

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A lighter projectile WITH THE SAME PROPELLANT CHARGE is faster and has more energy than a heavier projectile.

You CAN load the lighter projectile to the same energy level or a lesser energy level (such as in "recoil sensitive" or gallery loads).

Older factory stuff was often hotter than is seen today.

Faster lighter bullets accelerate faster and have more impressive "stats" than slower heavier bullets. BUT THEY DECELERATE FASTER TOO. Often the slower, heavier bullets have more momentum and penetrate further because they give up that energy more slowly than thier faster lighter counterparts.

Nevada Ed · Dec 24, 2017

By chance if you do get your hands on the old ammo........
it was loaded to around 40,000 CUP or more with the 125gr JHP ammo.
This is a lot different than todays ammo that is loaded at around 35,000PSI, even though they state 36,000PSI.

Todays ammo is still a man stopper...........
just without the...... "ShaaaZAM" , "BoooYA"!!

Bill Raby · Dec 24, 2017

It is not only the weight of the bullet. It is also likely a different powder with a different pressure curve. I have a 4 bore rifle. Its a gigantic black powder cartridge gun. Standard load is 2000 grain bullet with 450 grains of FFg powder. Recoil is massive, but manageable. Pressure builds gradually. It hits peak pressure slower. Recoil only lasts a fraction of a second, but it is several times longer than normal. Fg powder is slower burning. Recoil is still massive, but is spread out over a longer period of time. Felt recoil is a bit less, but you lose some muzzle energy. It also works well loaded with 120 grains of Blue Dot. The pressure curve is much different. It is a fast powder and you get a rapid spike in pressure. Normally use that with a 1400 grain round ball instead of a 2000 bullet. Velocity is also lower. You lose a couple thousand foot pounds of muzzle energy but the recoil is downright scary. Measured recoil is lower, but it is a lot faster. Call it "snappier". With Blue Dot you get to worry about detached retinas. But that has never happened so far.

What you are experiencing may not be just higher velocities. Different weight bullets will also use different powders. The pressure curve can make a noticeable difference in felt recoil. A faster recoil may actually be lighter, but feel like more. Even though it is not.

johngalt · Dec 24, 2017

Different brands are loaded differently, you can't make such blanket statements. In the past everyone talked about Remington 125 gr being the gold standard for nuclear level loads. I found the Federal 130 gr Personal Defense line to be even hotter. CCI Blazer 158 gr was rather mild in comparison. I shoot mostly hand loads, my 160 gr LSWC + 14.0 gr 2400 load feels hotter than both, and that isn't a max load. Have not chronographed any of those, so I have no idea what the velocities are.

I've never used Buffalo Bore, but everything I've read says their 158 gr load is quite potent.

.357 mag-why is 125 gr. hotter than 158?

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