Does anyone know any more detail about this round than what I see on various other websites? It's the new military round for the SIG XM17 pistol recently adopted by the Army. So far as I can tell, it seems the buzz is that it's pretty much identical to the old Winchester "Black Talon" 9mm load.

I've only seen what you've seen. The picture in one article I read looks like the round is similar to the Ranger ammunition, which replaced the Black Talon using a copper colored jacket and a less aggressive brand name . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Whatever it is, I'll bet Winchester will sell railcar loads of it to civilians. No better advertisement than the Army adopting it.

I don't know military but I read there's a new FBI 9mm

Federal Unveils Pistol Ammo Built to Meet New FBI Standards | Military.com

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Amen to that. My LGS can't keep the Sig 320's in stock since the Army adopted. Distributor actually rations them out the demand is so high.
On the flip side, nobody wants a Beretta 92 since they moved on either.

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Dave

They're in heavy circulation here. Lots of 320 sales but also lots of trade ins. But no one is out of stock

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Can somebody clarify something for me. As I understand it the Geneva Convention forbids the use of "hollow point" bullets and with a rather ample stock of 40 caliber Ranger-T I am 100% certain this particular ammunition uses "Hollow Point" bullets.

So, has the Geneva Convention changed in regards to Handgun Ammunition or is the US now intending to ignore the Geneva Convention?

Easy enough to convert a Ranger to a Black Talon. Just swab some cold blue on the bullet jacket.

The Geneva Convention had nothing to do or say about ammo.

The Hague Convention of 1899 forbade hollowpoint ammunition. The US is not a signatory to that convention.

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Rule of law, not a man.

Nobody I knew in the Army in 1985 wanted the Beretta 92 then either.

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CSM, U S Army(Ret) 1963-1990

Much better and more effective pistol than the M9, that's for sure. So many problems with M9s in service, some I've personally witnessed. Broken locking blocks, a bunch of bad magazines in circulation, too large of a grip for many female operators, heavy and oversized for the cartridge, less magazine capacity than the M17, lack of modularity and accessory options, the list just goes on and on.

Hopefully this new ammunition becomes standard issue, not just designated for use by some units/situations. As far as it being inhumane or against treaties etc. the terrorists don't fight fair. The M17 is shaping up to be a phenomenal sidearm and hopefully this new cartridge can help warfighter survivability by incapacitating adversaries faster than the old ball round. That with the 21 magazine capacity should make for a very lethal pistol.

On a related note, terrorists and terrorist organizations are considered "non-state actors," so even if we did sign the Hague Convention we wouldn't be bound to it as it only involves nation-states, if I'm not mistaken.

The portions of the "Geneva" (actually Hague) Convention which prohibit hollow points were not ratified by the United States, and if they had been, that provision only forbids hollow point ammunition in a declared war conflict between two "signatories." We haven't met that condition since World War II. We've just played nice. . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

The US has previously observed the Hague Convention protocols about not using expanding bullets designed to inflict undue suffering, etc., on a voluntarily basis because it didn't want to be seen as being inhumane. A lot of this stuff originated with the British use of "Dum Dum" bullets during the Boer War. The Hague Convention said nothing about carpet bombing, nukes, flamethrowers, napalm, land mines, etc., all of which cause, or can cause, much more suffering than bullets. It seems that use of expanding bullets in warfare by the USA is now considered perfectly OK, and it's certainly high time, especially as those enemies we are now exchanging fire with are not protected under the Hague Convention in any event.

Some years ago, I had information on very good authority that SEALs were using "special purpose" ammunition to good effect, and I'd guess they still may be. Hopefully, any of our troops who find themselves in situations where it is needed will also be able to use it now.

Seems like a FMJ bullet would be more likely to inflict suffering, whereas an expanding bullet would minimize suffering through greater lethality.

I don't recall a single publication related to the autopsy of anyone shot, wounded, or killed in a combat situation.

No doubt that those who regularly subject people to beheadings, ritual rape, or other atrocities will adopt this as their next propaganda campaign against the US.

I do not know much about the XM1153 but the XM17/18 pistol that shoots it is having problems. DoD Testing Reveals Problems With Army New Modular Handgun System

Still shaping up to be tremendously better than the M9, minor teething issues aside.

I sure hope the wounded weren't autopsied.

That was during the initial evaluation, not the production guns now entering service.

Geoff
Who would not feel unarmed with an M17, M11, M9, or M1911A1.

Never shoulda dumped the 1911. No trick bullets needed there. Glad to see the gloves coming off, though, at least somewhat.

I might scratch the M11 from that list. When I was at the USAF gunsmith shop, we saw many damaged M11s, some terminal. The M11 was intended for use mainly by security people such as OSI, not combat. M9s cannot be destroyed. They are sort of like the Energizer Bunny. We used to rebuild and refinish heavily used M9s as very pretty General Officer guns.

Other than a declared nation state war, I agree with others that using HP rounds for Law Enforcement and anti-terrorism use is really prudent. ( I spent ten years in USAF law enforcement carrying a puny .38 with 130 grain FMJ round). I shoot Winchester Ranger SXT as range ammo (cheap enough in bulk) and it's really smokey. I'll be buying Federal HP next time. They shoot a lot cleaner.


My apologies i noticed after I posted that auto correct changed some of wording and the resulting language was abhorant. I've corrected it, at least I hope it stays that way.

There are volumes of published data on combat wounds from WW2 and some on Korea.
They include autopsy photos and medical data from those KIA. When I taught at the
US Army's Academy of Health Sciences I read several of these publications looking
for information to include in lesson plans for several of the courses I was responsible for.
It's been a long time since I was there, but as I remember them, they where published by the
Army Surgeon General's office. The set I had was two volumes and each was about 3" thick in size.

There were many other publications on the subject. All for the better and faster treatment
of our wounded on the battlefield and further back up the medical chain.

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CSM, U S Army(Ret) 1963-1990

All I have seen is that it is a 147gr JHP.

I'm still not getting why the XM1152 is a 115gr round.

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Release the Kraken

I've attended many autopsies, a/k/a post-mortem examinations, and I can assure you that the pain caused by the wound would pale in comparison.