I am contemplating the purchase of another handgun, and the proliferation of 40 S&Ws has caught my eye. What concerns me is the fact that Law Enforcement seems to be jumping off the 40 bandwagon and returning to the 9mm. Factory 40 ammo seems to be available and lower in price.

What is the opinion of the forum members ... does the forty seem to have a future or is it on the path to obsolescence? I would also ask, why is law enforcement abandoning the forty?

Thanks in advance for your assistance!

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Judge control not gun control!

A few months ago I saw the light up sign at the local gun store saying ‘we will buy your used gun’. On lunch break I stopped in to inquire what they’d give me for my .40 shield that I’ve carried for several years. He answered very quickly saying he’d buy anything but that [.40]

He went on to say that the popularity is dropping like a rock due in part, as you stated, that law enforcement is jumping off the bandwagon.

I inquired at another store and pretty much got the same story. So I’m going to keep my .40’s and buy some dies and components so that I can reload until the .40 s&w becomes an ‘obsolete’ cartridge of yesteryear


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The 40sw caliber is still very popular with Law Enforcement departments.
With John Q buyer,,,not so much.
You see, the 40 kicks harder, more muzzle rise,etc.
Some of the Departments find it easier to qualify with the 9mm.
The 40sw is here to stay, as it does a great job in putting down the object it hits. In Law Enforcement, it sometimes is You vs the Bad Guy.

Depending on which .40 you select you can also have the option of converting to 9mm. I used to do it when I owned an M&P40 simply by swapping barrels and magazines (the .40S&W mag wouldn't always chamber the last round of 9mm but worked otherwise). I still do it with my Beretta M96 by simply swapping barrels. The 40.S&W is still one of the three most popular semi auto cartridges (at least based on what we used to sell at the store).

As I have said before, and will say again, I think the demise of the .40 is greatly exaggerated.

Many law enforcement agencies follow what the FBI does (not that doing so is always the best policy). I would wager that if the FBI decided to go to .45 ACP, many agencies (mine included) would fall all over themselves trying to change to .45 ACP.

I would use my agency as an example. We carried .45 ACP forever. We just changed to 9mm.....why? Well, when you ask "The FBI has all kinds of testing/data to show that's the best round for law enforcement".

Use your own judgment. .40 is a solid performer by anyone's measure. I have to laugh when I hear people talk about how "snappy" .40 is or "it wears out pistols faster". Give me a break. I would wager 1 in 1000 or even 1 in 10,000 people shoot enough to ever wear out ANY gun.

I say go for it. I have always felt well armed with any .40 pistol I've ever carried. Don't let the internet carry you away with the "I've heards".

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Un-Reconstructed Southerner

Are cartridges that are known as snappy deemed snappy due to the higher bullet velocity with lighter bullets causing higher slide velocities, or something else? Are cartridges deemed "snappy" tamed by shooting heavier weight bullets at lower velocities?

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Judge control not gun control!

In my experience, a heavier bullet at a lower velocity does feel less snappy.

There is nothing really wrong with the 40 S&W, it does provide a caliber with more umph in a 9mm sized weapon. I think the extra umph is what hinders those who are less tolerant of recoil from being able to qualify with the 40. I'd wager they would not qualify with a 45 ACP either.

My opinion is that the .40 S&W will be popular with anyone who wants a little bit more muzzle energy than the 9mm, and less muzzle energy than the fully loaded 10mm, and more magazine capacity than the .45acp+P, and a smaller gun than 10mm/45, too.

The reason why the .40 S@W became so popular is that it occupies the middle of the common sense power spectrum, and in an efficient manner, to boot. That is, it sits in the middle of the reasonable muzzle energy range, in a compact cartridge size, because it is not loaded to year 1900 pressure levels.

No doubt that the popularity with civilian owners is dropping off quickly. In the shop I work in , I'd say 1 in 3 sales of carry guns were in 40 S&W about 2 years back. Now it's more like 1 in 10. Consequently we are stocking less in 40 S&W and giving less for them in trade. LE aside, seems folks have figured out that the 9mm ( and even 45 to some degree) is much easier to shoot well for the average /newbie shooter.

That said, they made millions of handguns chambered in 40 S&W so it will remain a well established caliber for many a year. I would not be worried about running out of ammo/components due to obsolescence in our lifetime.

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Dave

40 pretty popular in competition circles due to its versatility and the rules sets of various games.
In USPSA can run in single stack major (45acp power level) or Minor (9mm level)
Limited is almost exclusively 40 major.
Production and IDPA games that have 10 round limits. 40 is loaded minor to run with the 9mm.
A 5" double stack 40 can be competitive in just about any autoloader game.

I never considered a handgun in 40 S&W. I used a 1911 45acp in the military and I can handle the recoil very well. Today I carry a S&W M&P 45. The magazine holds 10 rounds and surprisingly the recoil seems not as bad as in a 1911.

Since you posted this in the reloading section ... I had a couple of 40's but found too much Glocked brass. I'm a brass scavenger. If a person either didn't reload or had a fully supported chamber and only reloaded their own brass, there's not a thing wrong with the .40. Maybe a lot right given the fact that that the guns are often a bargain.

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Just Say No - To Social Media

I have six handguns chambered in .40 S&W, all Sigs. Two P239’s, P250c, P250sc, SP2022, SP2340. I did convert one P239 to .357 Sig, and hope to find a .357 Sig barrel to convert the SP2340. The SP2022 is for my son. I carry the P250sc loaded with Underwood ammo around our place in the mountains.

In my area though, .40 S&W pistols gather dust as buyers lust for 9mm guns.

The .40 S&W cartridge is pretty much a ballistic twin to the old .38/40 Winchester; one of the most popular cartridges of it’s day, and still in use now. The cartridge is versatile and offered in a variety of guns; I believe it will survive.

The reason I bought the SP2340 and SP2022, used factory magazines for $1.31 each. My P250sc and the Winthrop holster I tote it in.

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What do you mean by "Glocked brass"?

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Judge control not gun control!

We tend to study the comparative merits of this or that cartridge in a vacuum. In law enforcement, other elements enter the equation such as recoil recovery, the ability of ALL members of the force to easily retract the slide, cartridge capacity, gun size, weight and suitability for off-duty use and the ease of meeting training standards, most often on a qualification course of some type.

At the risk of touching off yet another caliber war, it seems that there isn't much difference in so-called stopping power between most cartridges suitable for law enforcement assuming similar hits. This, together with the continuing improvement in terminal performance of modern ammunition, are factors in determining what cartridge is best for a department.

As for the average CCW, if you're competent with what you're carrying, by all means, continue carrying it. If it's too easy to find excuses not to fire a particular handgun in your carry arsenal, then you need to be honest with yourself regarding that gun's continued use.

When I retired in 2015, I sold all of my .40 S&W handguns and all of my .40 S&W ammunition, vowing to never shoot that round again. And I haven't . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

When I retired my Sheriff's Office carried the model 4506. It had been recently issued to replace the model 645. Now they carry Glock pistols in .40 caliber. I think the city police do, as well. The .40 caliber was a compromise between a 9mm & a .45acp, as the .45 was more difficult for smaller stature female deputies. As a strong proponent of females in law enforcement, this just makes good sense to me. I continue to carry a .45acp and likely always will. I would certainly prefer a .40 over a 9mm if those were my only choices. The .40 round is not going away in my opinion. I am a user, not an expert in ballistics, however.

Well it goes something like this:

The 45 ACP is the best but not enough rounds, so we are out gunned for "firefights"

The 38 special is to wimpy
The 357 is good but only holds 6 rounds

We are out gunned. so enter the high cap 9mm

But wait the 9mm is to wimpu we are outgunned again

Enter the 10 MM

Wow this is powerful but it is to much for the wimpy new recruits

Enter the scaled down 40 SW

Wow this is powerful and holds almost as much ammo as a 9mm and more than the 45 acp

Enter more wimpier recruits

Och this 40 SW is too strong

9mm bullets are now high tech so lets go back to the 9mm

The Military uses 9mm so it must be OK

And so the circle continues!

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Still Running Against the Wind

You left out .357 Sig, which would be termed "too expensive . . . "

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

I keep 40 caliber ammo because of my Shorty Forty, 4040PD and 4054

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The agency I work for is still buying .40 ammo and there are no plans to switch. In fact, we just sent a “kid” through the academy and he said .40’s were still the number one caliber on the range with cadets from all over TN.

I continue to enjoy the 40 very much. Reloading really makes it shine in my book. I also still have several LEO and Boarder Patrol friends who's departments still use them. One is also a weapons instructor and qualifies the department. The switch to 9 is for the most part, to help people qualify. Plain and simple. Not because its a better round. They will be switching soon. I am ok with the big drop off by folks though. Great deals to be had on a great caliber. Brass is almost free. Down side, there will not be as many new models coming out.

I wonder if the trend to 9mm instead of .40 S&W may be partly due to the (at least anecdotal, if not more evidence of the) 9mm Glock being more reliable than the .40 Glock. While obviously not a problem on every .40 pistol, there were malfunctions caused when a weapon light was mounted, and then also the unsupported chamber issues.

Those problems would lead one to choose a the 9mm Glock 17 over the .40 Glock 22. Then with the overall popularity of Glocks, the .40 caliber fades out while the 9mm takes the stage. That trend then followed to the rest of the pistol world.

Just a theory.

Those were early issues and have long been resolved.

The 40 S&W was developed by coping the reduced 10mm load made for both female and slight built FBI agents.The new round was placed in a shorter case allowing the factory to utilize it in their wonder 9 mm line. personally I don't care for the round but recognize its appeal to those who want more than a 9mm. Since recoil is a turn off for every young shooter I speak to , I can't see it going any where soon.

I came full circle with the 9mm during my 25 years in the FBI. I was issued a Sig 226 in the academy - I was in one of the first classes after the 1076 was shown the door. (I got a 220, gave the 226 back, and happily carried my .45 til I retired.)

I was one of a group of firearms instructors recalled to the Quantico mothership to test all the guns submitted for the .40 caliber contract in the mid-90s. I rated the HK USP Compact the highest but the Bu went with the Glock 22 and 23.

We were fine with the .40 Glocks for the next two decades. The .40 was initially derided as Short & Weak. I worked a bunch of shootings where it worked just fine, so I never shared that opinion.

One September day, 19 scumbags with boxcutters changed everything. Our ammo budget remained unchanged for the next ten years so we could buy computers and analysts to squint at them. My days as “the bullet fairy” with cases of ammo in my rig to use as “liaison enhancement” fodder with the cops in my territory ended.

Coincidentally the .40 somehow morphed from wimp to snappy powerhouse. 9mm loads improved. Someone decided it was just as good as the fearsome forty, and guess what? Its cheaper.

As I approached my Bureau expiration date in June of 2016 the die had been cast. SWAT guys started getting their Glock 17s, and the first of the Glock 19M general issue guns started appearing. Bye-bye .40 S&W.

Most agents I stay in touch with still have their old .40s. New agents get the 9mms in the academy, and the .40s in service are slowly being rotated out. At the last I knew, personally owned .40s were still allowed.

The switch had nothing to do with snappiness or guns breaking or any shortcomings of the .40 caliber. It was just economics. 9mm ammo is cheaper, and if it works as well why not use it?

The Bu has about 12,000 agents. Each shoots 1000 rounds per year in quals alone. (12 million rounds right there). Add in 10,000 rounds for each new agent in the academy, plus SWAT and HRT, and odds and ends like Citizen’s Academies and the National Academy and you’re looking at boxcars full of ammo every year. The cost of the guns themselves is chump change.

Now I’m a firearms instructor for a good sized Federal agency. They use .40s and have no plans to change.

I can walk into Cabelas and buy .32/20 and .30 Luger factory rounds, so I doubt .40 S&W will ever be in short supply.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

Not exactly.

After the Miami shootout on 4/11/86 a couple things happened. .45 ACP pistols were immediately authorized, first with 185 grain Silvertips and later 230 grain Hydra Shoks. 9mms remained in service, but the move to 147 grain ammo began.

A vocal group in the Bu firearms community advocated .45s for all. Another opted for a newer round - the 10mm.

Full power 10mm ammo was never issued to agents. There was no issue with excessive recoil or female agents or wimpy little accountants.

The fledgling ballistics research unit started with the 10mm and the 180 grain bullet. They shot it into ballistic gel at increasing velocities until it did exactly what they wanted, which was at about 950 fps. Then they put out a bid request for a few million of them.

At the time, the Model 13 .357 loaded with .38 +P (and the option for .357 Silvertips) was the predominant handgun in the Bureau. The thinking was to have the same setup with the 10mm - normal carry would be the 180/950 load, with the option for the big stuff if needed. We also bought a boatload of HK MP5/10mm subguns.

The 1076 was actually a popular gun, and many guys hung on to theirs until they were forced to return them.

Of course, someone soon figured out you didn’t need that big 10mm case to do the 180/950 thing and the .40 S&W was born. The Bu then bought in with everybody else.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

I never met a slight built FBI agent, female or otherwise . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Being a user of the 10mm from the conception of the Brent Ten, I remember all too well how and why the 10mm almost faded into darkness. With all do respect ,your post seems an attempt to rewrite history on the need for reduced FBI loads .These reduced FBI loads that had been out for a year is what got the engineers at S&W thinking.Hence the .40 S&W.

Go to Boston , some I met looked like librarians .

The 40 S&W isn't going anywhere. It's on the shelves and
reloaded a lot.

FWIW, I've been spouting about the LEO trade in 40's for at
least a year. The agencies who are FBI wannabe's are dropping
their 40's as fast as they can convince those with the purse
strings to let them.

SO as a civilian, I've been monitoring sales of surplus cop guns
and as an example bought a Glock 22 for $308.00 in my hands.
I also picked up SIG 229's for less than $350.00 each. And a
SIG P226 for $438.00. That is in my hand costs for all of them.
(And, except for the glock they all came with at least 3 magazines)

The 40 will be around for a long time. Too many out there and
they don't wear out sitting in a safe or dresser drawer. You
ought to buy it on the dip and use the extra money for ammo.

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never get out of the boat

And the 45 GAP!

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Still Running Against the Wind

No need to rewrite it since I was there. I will, however, correct fallacies when I see them. If you have some info that “female and slightly built” FBI agents ever were issued (or even tested with) full bore 10mm I’d love to see it. Somehow these same spindly agents managed to also qualify with the 14” 12 gauge 870 with buckshot and slugs ( no reduced recoil stuff!)

The Bureau downloaded the 10mm because it did what they wanted it to do. That these downloaded 10s lead to the .40 isn’t in dispute. The rationale for it apparently is, thanks to internet speculation that somehow becomes accepted as fact.

I know the idea that agents couldn’t handle the mighty 10’s recoil is a cherished piece of lore but it just isn’t so. I knew the guys and they saw the full 10 as a special issue item, much like .357 rounds were. They started with a bullet and a goal of what it was supposed to do in ballistic gel. When they got there, they stopped. It is just that simple.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

The only time I enjoyed shooting the 40 was using it as a practice round in converted Glock 10mms. With a quality barrel accuracy was outstanding and recoil soft.
That was back when 40 brass was everywhere.

Arnold Epstein (Biloxi Blues reference) used to work in the New York office, 5'4" 98 pounds of Mafia busting dynamite.

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Certified Curmudgeon

Welcome to the new world.

At least the early Glocks, maybe more current ones and some other firearms have an unsupported chamber area near the breech end at the ramp. It creates a small bulge (or smile) right at the rim. You can get a "bulge buster" die to iron it out but it still creates a weak area that can blow out.

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Just Say No - To Social Media

Also the "King of Calibers" for self defense.

Well, I think so, anyway.

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Just Say No - To Social Media

Florida HP carries the GAP and is happy with it. They bought it for the exact reason for which it was developed--smaller women's hands.

Simple--$$$. As for the comment about Glocked brass, I've collected bags of discarded .40 cases over the last few years, some hot out of Glocks, and none are "Glocked" nor bulged.

I would invite you to attend and participate in a DT class with those you believe to be "slight built . . ."

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Agreed. Here in SE MA/RI , I've met several over the years that were "petite".

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Dave

I like my .40’s. And I’ve never had any bulged cases!
My Glock 27 and my 8040 Cougar along with my 36

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I used to deliver mail to a retired FBI agent who looked like Andre the Giant with an Elvis hair-do. I don't think she carried a gun, most likely she just ripped the arms off of perps.

I bought a Colt Lawman off her shortly after she retired, but I don't know if that was a duty gun or not.

I'm not a huge 40 fan but do still keep and reload for four of them. One is a 5" M&P Pro, One is a Glock 35, One is a Sig 1911 and the last is a S&W 610 ( which technically is a 10mm.) Long ago, I ran a bucket of LE range brass through a Lee full length sizer to get rid of the "glocked" effect. I've now reloaded some of that brass 4-5 times with no issues. Admittedly, I load my 40 S&W rounds to lower pressures to simulate 45acp 185gr target loads. If I didn't reload them to my liking, I think 40 S&W would be history in my safe. would be long gone.

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Dave

During the testing period of the model 1006 with standard loads , the recoil and blast were too much for some of the after mentioned. I made no mention of anyone being issued full power loads.other ballistics test not withstanding would have also contributed to their finding the need for a reduced load.This topic had been covered by the entire gun industry news at the time.If what you say is correct on how it really happened, then I could never have any more faith in gunwriters, gun magazines , or Smith & Wesson for all misleading us with the very same account.

Well, there you have it!

You can certainly believe what you read in the gun press. I’ll stick with what I saw and know to be true. It’s all good!

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

Glock bulging was with older models in 40. Gen 3 and later should be fine. Google glock 40 chamber support and look at the pic's.

I'm not saying that you are wrong. How could I , you were there and I was not. It is very disturbing to me that so many credible sources have all been spinning such a misleading tale.

How did you get the 10mm subgun you carried?