Does anyone here know WHY the .38-40 aka .38 WCF is named as it is, its bullet diameter being .401 and all.

In the absence of facts viable (but unverifiable) Conspiracy Theories may be put forward instead.

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Certified Curmudgeon

Think about these:

A .44 Cap and Ball shoots a .451 +/- bullet.
A .36 C&B revolver shoots a .375 bullet.
A .38 special is .357.
A .44 can run anywhere from .417 to .435.
A .32 can run anywhere from .308 to .330.

And this is only a start! Figure these out and then worry about the .38-40.

The best explanation I have ever heard falls somewhere between "Because .40-40 would sound silly", to making a better distinction between it and the .44-40.

And I suggest you look up "conspiracy", it doesn't apply to this situation in any way!

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Gunsmithing since 1961

I love the .38-40 and both rifle and revolver so chambered live here, but don't see a really significant difference in terminal ballistics between the .44-40 and the .38-40. Seems that Winchester simply indulged in a little marketing ploy and offered the 19th century consumer the illusion of choices so as to sell more rifles.

Marketing is likely a better word for it. I am sure the .327 was named to allude to the .357 (but its still closer to SOME cartridge dimention than .38-40.)

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Certified Curmudgeon

Why is the 38 special bullet .357?

I own three, Winchester 92 & 1885 low wall, plus a Colt New Service. I read everything I could find, read all the arguments also. Here are the facts as I understand them. No one knows why Winchester decided to call it a 38 cal. aka 38 WCF, to add to the confusion, it held 38 gr. black powder, which would make it a 40-38 if they used their time honored system, also apparently did not want to call it a 40-40 either. Well the new cartridge is showing some success so Marlin decides to enter the market, using the approach all the companies used of not using the exact same designation to sell their own ammo, they put 40 gr. of black powder in them to one up Winchester with a slightly more powerful load calling it 38-40. Low & behold everyone wants the new load & eventually even Winchester went to it also, a case of give the public what they want. The rest is history.

Don't forget the lowly 38/44 in this history lesson.

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Some collect art; I shoot it!

I think it was so I could order the same bullets for reloading a Colt and a S&W revolver. And confuse the young at the range.

Originally, according to ancient wisdom, metallic cartridges were rimfire and used heel based bullets like the .22 RF is today with the bullet’s external diameter being the same as the outside of the case and the bore. When centrefire cases were invented and straight sided bullets started to become common they just reduced the bore size accordingly.

The .44/40 etc were all “internal case diameter” cartridges from the start. My 2 cents is that manufacturers in an age where size mattered simply continued to use the external neck diameter of cases to name the calibre.

The outside neck diameter of the 44/40 is .443”, the .38 “Long” Colt case was .381”. The .38 S&W is .3855”, the .38 Colt New Police .381 and the .38 Special is .379.

But the outside neck diameter of the .45 Colt is .480 and the 38/40 is .416, so there goes that theory!

We gun folks are funny.

The .38/40 always had a reputation for "shooting hard" and was considered a good fight-stopping round back in the day.

.40 caliber 180 grain bullet at about 950 feet per second.

The .40 S&W was derided as the ".40 Short & Weak", and would supposedly just stop on a bad guy's neck, to be flicked off like a pesky mosquito. Then it somehow grew a pair and became "snappy" and tore up guns and is now the ugly and unwanted step-sibling of the more gentlemanly 9mm.

.40 caliber 180 grain bullet at about 950 feet per second.



Personally, I like them both.

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Rule of law, not a man.

I like them both also, 2 Colt single action army's 7 1/2" BBL.both nickel. Action job by the Arizona Thumber. A Cimarron Winchester 73 replica action job by Cody Conhager in Maryland. All 38-40's..Also have a gen2 Glock G22, a Sig P229 and a HK P2000. All three 40 S&W
Enjoy shooting and reloading for all of them..

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NRA Benefactor

I have a S&W 38-40 that was a M28.
Does it do as well as some of the old one's?
Have not shot it many years and cost me a lot.

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Only difference Fool/Mule-ears

.38 S&W Special (pre .357 magnum) in a .44 size frame. So far as I see only .38-40 understates both bore and case size.

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Certified Curmudgeon

When the first centerfire cartridges were made, they used heel bullets as well. For example .38 Colt has two sets of standards the original one for heeled bullets and a newer one for straight sided bullets. I know external lubrication was a problem, dirt, dibris and all. But I wonder if heel profile bullets would still be around in centerfire had the concept of plating come about a little sooner.

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Certified Curmudgeon

I like to load fairly soft Badman 180 grain cowboy .38-40 LRNFPs in .40 S&W cases, a bit less than 950 fps out of a 2.5 inch barrel.

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Certified Curmudgeon

Bullets names are rarely consistent with their actual diameter...

.38 Special = .357
.380 ACP = .355
.460 S&W Magnum = .452
.480 Ruger = .475
.50 BMG = .510

There are endless examples.

Yes, but as Kiwi Cop points out in post nine. Most centerfire metallic cartridges for revolvers take thier nominal dimentions from the case neck.

The .38-40 understates both size of bullet .401 and case neck .416. In a business at a time when size mattered.

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Certified Curmudgeon

Going back to mid-19th Century, what we now refer to as "caliber" was then commonly expressed as "gauge", measured by the number of lead balls to fit that piece that could be produced from a pound of lead. That system remains in general use for shotguns. I own an antique percussion rifle having a bore diameter of .384, groove diameter of .410 (very deep rifling), and was referred to as about 90-gauge, which I load with .375" balls with heavy cotton patching. Today some would call it a .38 caliber while others might call it a .41 caliber.

Beginning mid-19th Century the use of caliber designations became common, with North America and Great Britain generally using designations in inch-measurements, while most of the rest of the world relied upon metric-measurements. Even so, not everyone was measuring the same things. Rifled arms have a bore diameter (generally established either by boring or by forging steel onto a hardened rod of desired diameter), which are then rifled (grooves cut into the bore to engage the bullet and impart a stabilizing spin), resulting in a groove diameter, and there are many different combinations in use.

Most major firearms manufacturers offered their products chambered for their own proprietary cartridge designs. There was no standardization; the business model seems to have been keeping customers tied to the source. It was not until about WW1 that there was any significant movement toward common cartridges, calibers, and
loadings for a variety of arms made by more than one manufacturer. Eventually this led to the SAAMI standards that we now accept as everyday rules.

What we usually refer to as a .30 caliber barrel will typically have a nominal bore diameter of 0.300" (actually, because of tooling methods and wear during production runs, this might vary from about 0.296" to about 0.305" or so), and rifling cuts resulting in a nominal groove diameter of 0.308" (with variations from about 0.305" to about 0.313" or so).

Some cartridge designations express caliber based upon bore diameter. Some cartridge designations express caliber based upon groove diameter.

Some late-19th and early-20th Century cartridge designations take note of powder charges (such as .25-20, .32-20, .30-30, .30-40, .32-40, .38-55, .45-70, etc), generally referring to the original (or manufacturer's wishful thinking about) charge of powder.

Some cartridge designations take note of bullet weight. .45-70-500 was the standard US military rifle load of a 500-grain bullet in the .45 caliber rifle case with 70 grains powder, while the .45-55-405 was the same cartridge case loaded with 405-grain bullet and 55 grains powder intended for the Springfield carbines, having much reduced recoil. Entire series of cartridges by Winchester, Marlin, Savage, and others were marketed with such designations (and a lot of confusion, as the .32-40 WCF was not the same as the .32-40 Marlin, .30-30 WCF was different than the .30-30 Savage, etc), which also provided for many arguments about which one might be better for a specific purpose.

There were also cartridges loaded with undersized bullets for the bore & groove diameters, frequently with a hollow-base bullet designed to expand upon firing to fill the rifling grooves. This was a practice that had been very successfully used for many years with muzzle-loading rifles and precision target rifles, so many knowledgeable shooters desired such features.

The .38-40 (originally .38 WCF) is a round developed by Winchester for the 1873 Winchester repeating rifle. It was also adapted by Colt for the Single Action Army revolver, and subsequently popular in many other rifles and handguns. Bore diameters were all over the charts (from 0.385" or so to .401" or so commonly seen), with corresponding variations in rifling groove diameters (shallow and deep). Factory ammunition originally utilized soft lead bullets with hollow-base (designed to expand and fill bore and grooves), nominally .38 caliber (actually just about anywhere from 0.380" or so to about .0.403" or so), and manufacturer's rather wishful designation of 40 grains black powder (actually exceeding case capacity). Ammunition produced by Winchester, UMC, Dominion, and others was usually packaged in boxes with notations of which firearms that ammo was "regulated" for (Winchester rifles, Marlin rifles, Colt revolvers, etc).

Winchester stuck with the caliber designation of .38 WCF for decades. Other firearms makers did not like to acknowledge the Winchester ammo connection, so they marked their firearms as .38-40.

Since SAAMI standards were developed and gained wide acceptance there has been general standardization of case dimensions, bullet diameters, and other aspects of arms and ammo production. The cartridge designation ".38-40" stuck and became the industry standard as well as popular reference.

As with many other older firearms, all of these differences remain common obstacles for shooters to overcome in selecting ammunition for their rifles and pistols. SAAMI-standard .38-40 ammo may, or may not, perform properly in any of the older guns because of wide variations in chambers, bores, groove diameters, cartridge cases, and other factors. I would expect modern .38-40 ammo to perform relatively well in modern arms made to SAAMI specs, but I would expect to be a bullet caster and reloader for any of the early guns.

Don't open up that can of worms...the confusion is rampant enough.
A few years after starting reloading (1967) I bought the book "Cartridges of the World" to try and get an understanding, talk about a complicated and confusing subject. Some times there isn't a rhyme or reason to a name....it just sounded good !
Gary

Thank you LoboGunLeather. I knew there was a reason, thanks for the information.

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Certified Curmudgeon

I always thought so it would fit in the middle between 32-20 and 44-40 to give the appearence of evenly spaced range of cartriges.

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Well done > well said

Exactly....it just sounded good !

The .38/.44 refers to the 1930s N-frame S&W revolver (.38 Special on a .44 frame), not the cartridge. It is more properly the 38-44 (not .38/.44) cartridge, but most post-WWII ammunition boxes are labeled as .38 Special Hi-Speed (Remington), .38 Special Super-X (Western), .38 Special Super Speed (Winchester), and .38 Special High Velocity (H.V.) (Peters). Sometimes 38-44 is parenthetically sprinkled into these names.

To add more fuel to the fire, the long-extinct .38-44 (and .32-44) cartridges were target rounds with longer-than-normal cases and the RN bullet was seated flush to the case mouth (somewhat like the 7.62mm Nagant). The S&W New Model No. 3 revolvers were chambered for these cartridges, among others. They are completely different from any other .38 (and .32) cartridges.