PENETRATION: Try KTW

SRT · Jul 25, 2018

I used to carry the politically incorrect, Teflon coated "cop killer" KTW rounds in a Dade speed loader when I was a young officer in the 1970s, just in case...

Pictured below, you will see a photo of my .38 Special KTWs in the same speed loader, accompanied by 9mm and a couple of .357 Mag KTW rounds.

In the 1972 Law Enforcement Handgun Digest, they have a section entitled "Special Purpose Loads and Ammo," and have a picture of an engine block with holes punched through it compliments of .357 Magnum KTW.

Also, find attached a penetration chart from the 1980's, after KTW was sold to North American Ordinance Corporation.

My brass is head stamped KTW, which is rare, desirable and very collectable. Several years ago, an MTM case of 12 rounds of KTW head stamped 9mm sold for $350. What I have pictured is left over from my career as a police officer.

Nevada Ed · Jul 25, 2018

Very interesting...................

I hope you don't sell those last survivors.
Great collection and info plus pictures, by the way.

"Oldies but Goodies", for sure.

just plain joe · Jul 25, 2018

This post brought back some memories. Shortly after I came on the Job I ordered some of the KTW in 9 m/m, .38 Special, .357 Magnum and .45 Auto.

In checking, the 9 m/m & .38 bear "KTW" headstamps. The .357 show "Federal", and the .45 bear the "AMRON" headstamp. This ammunition was manufactured in Lorain, OHIO according the the packaging. 9 m/m was 105 grains, .38 was 106 grains, and .45 was 182 grains.

There was significance attached to what "KTW" stood for. It may have centered around the first and/or last name of the inventor(s). Sorry I can't be more specific.

JPJ

DWalt · Jul 26, 2018

KTW represented the names of the three guys who started the company, Kopsch, Turcos, and Ward. And they were in Ohio. One or all of them usually had a table at the OGCA shows during the late 1960s-early 1970s to display their products. They had sample rounds and I have a couple of them.....somewhere. One impressive item they had on display was a steel plate about a half-inch thick with a hole through it, the result of loading one of their .38 bullets in a .35 Remington cartridge and fired in a rifle. The Teflon coating did essentially nothing and was later dropped. The first bullets were made of a tungsten alloy called Kennertium, and was the same material used to make snow tire studs. Are snow tires with studs still around? Later bullets were brass. I had understood that duPont eventually refused to sell them any Teflon due to the bad publicity for the product. True or not I don't know.

Nevada Ed · Jul 26, 2018

A few years back, in Nevada, tire shops would add "Studs" to tires that
had the small holes in them, that would accept the metal studs, if asked.

However they had to be off the streets by early Spring, since the State said they damaged the roads w/o snow on them.

DWalt · Jul 26, 2018

I was aware that studded tires were partially or completely prohibited in some states. Where I now live we get snow or ice so infrequently (like maybe once in ten years) that studded tires were probably never used here. Many years ago when I lived in northern Ohio, many highways had visible grooves worn into the pavement by the studs.

jupiter1 · Jul 27, 2018

DWalt said:
The first bullets were made of a tungsten alloy called Kennertium, and was the same material used to make snow tire studs. Are snow tires with studs still around? Later bullets were brass.

I remember reading an article, possibly in Gun Digest, stating that the .38 Special KTW bullets were made of tungsten alloy and weighed 200 grains.

steveno · Jul 27, 2018

the Teflon was used to hopefully protect the rifling from shooting the much harder bullet material

pharmer · Jul 27, 2018

DWalt said:
KTW represented the names of the three guys who started the company, Kopsch, Turcos, and Ward.

I was gonna say "Kill The Wabbit" but you had to spoil it with valid information. Joe

AJ · Jul 27, 2018

I have one KTW round left somewhere in the house. It is a spire pointed green (teflon?) coated slug, the round is a .44 Mag. Not sure why I kept it, and now I don't even own a gun to shoot it in.

DWalt · Jul 28, 2018

steveno said:
the Teflon was used to hopefully protect the rifling from shooting the much harder bullet material

The KTW bullets I have seen were of the half-jacket type - a partial GM jacket. I am not sure if the later brass bullets had that or if they had a Teflon coating. I remember reeding something about the presence of Teflon actually degrading penetration performance in body armor.

500SNW · Jul 28, 2018

DWalt said:
Are snow tires with studs still around?

Your question interests me. I will try to find some studded tires.

jag312 · Aug 10, 2018

DWalt said:
... Are snow tires with studs still around? ...

That is what my son and I use on our cars in the Winter. I have also seen studded snow tires on the California Highway Patrol cars that drive along Highway 88 in the Sierras.

jag312 · Aug 10, 2018

pharmer said:
I was gonna say "Kill The Wabbit" but you had to spoil it with valid information. Joe

Is this what Elmer Fudd uses?

Weimar · Aug 10, 2018

Tire studs can be added to your tires when you buy them, still legal in many states.....

Brass headed bullets are available right now from a couple of companies, I have not bought them, but do a google search

The progressive nose geometry allows for deep, straight penetration while creating a permanent wound cavity diameter exceeding that of most expanding bullets. To top it off, the bullet is solid Copper and/or Brass able to overcome barriers to penetration; environmentally friendly, target unfriendly, very unfriendly, downright obnoxiously unfriendly.

jimmyj · Aug 10, 2018

These rounds came in a 5 or 6 round package. I still have a package of 38spl rounds

2152hq · Aug 11, 2018

Copper as a (solid) bullet projectile material is not included in the list of materials in the '94 law that makes a bullet an AP bullet.
Brass however is along with the other usual culprits.(tungsten alloy(s), steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium)

Interesting they put 'beryllium copper' in the laws language and not just plain 'copper'.
Another congressional Dean Wormer moment I think.
But Sir, it's already written up with 'copper' in the language.
..Well then, make it Double Secret copper,,,Beryllium Copper. That'll fix 'em..

There's also a section that breaks down at above what % of the total bullet weigh, the weight of the metallic jacket alone then makes the bulelt an AP bullet. I believe it's at the 25% mark.

I recall an article in Rifle or Handloader magazine some years back where the author went thru a rather detailed process of seeing what he could do to increase the penetration power of the 25acp in a mouse gun.
He made solid brass bullets on his mini Enco lathe from 1/4"d brass rod, trying a few different point shapes IIRC.

Hand loading them in the 25acp and test firing into different thicknesses of steel plate and other such sheet materials.
I always remember the one pic of the hole punched thru the Canadian quarter which is about 95% steel if I understand it right..

Interesting article, one that you really didn't expect to see in either of those publications at the time, and it brought quite a bit of neg feedback from readers. Save that goofy stuff for the 'other' gun magazines!
There was also feedback from the BATF. They informed both the experimenter/author and the magazine editor of the illegality of mfg AP handgun ammo (solid brass projectile).

There was a company that made 25acp AP ammo using hollow pt brass bullets,,then went to copper after a time. I don't know if they were the same as this author.
MSC Ammunition was the ammo (Maximum Sub Caliber). It was made by Personal Protection Systems (Pa?) starting in the mid 80's.
They loaded on most any available (to them) brass. So headstamps vary.

6string · Aug 11, 2018

You guys might be interested in the THV ammo.
Originally from France, the name means Très Haute Vitesse, or "Very High Velocity".

Here's a link and some data
TRÈS HAUTE VITESSE

CALIBRE
BARREL LENGTH
BULLET WEIGHT
MUZZLE VELOCITY
MUZZLE ENERGY
.32 ACP
127 mm / 5 in
1.25 g / 25 grains
780 ms / 2,560 fps
502 j / 370 ft lbs
"
"auto pistol"
"
640 ms / 2,100 fps
338 j / 250 ft lbs
.38 SPECIAL
152 mm / 6 in
2.9 g / 45 grains
720 ms / 2,362 fps
752 j / 531 ft lbs
"
102 mm / 4 in
"
690 ms / 2,264 fps
690 j/ 509 ft lbs
"
51mm / 2 in
"
610 ms / 2,000 fps
539 j / 397 ft lbs
.357 MAGNUM
152 mm / 6 in
2.9 g / 45 grains
780 ms / 2,560 fps
882 j / 650 ft lbs
"
102 mm / 4 in
"
740 ms / 2,428 fps
794 j / 585 ft lbs
"
76 mm/ 3 in
"
675 ms / 2,215 fps
660 j / 487 ft lbs
"
63 mm / 2.5 in
"
640 ms / 2,100 fps
594 j / 438 ft lbs
9MM PARA
"auto pistol"
2.9 g / 45 grains
620 ms / 2,034 fps
557 j / 410 ft lbs
"
"SMG"
"
740 ms / 2,428 fps
794 j / 585 ft lbs
.45 ACP
"auto pistol"
3.9 g / 60 grains
620 ms / 2,034 fps
750 j / 553 ft lbs

-db- · Aug 11, 2018

I've got some KTW ammo. The following photos are of an MTM Ammo Wallet "Safety Pak" with .38 Special KTW I sold a few years ago. This one contained mixed brass/headstamps, including some KTW-marked. I've kept another unopened sealed one containing .357 Magnum.

RMFnLA · Aug 14, 2018

I had some of the teflon-coated solid bronze (brass? copper?) KTW rounds in 9mm way back when.

We did penetration tests and they did better than .41 Magnum JSPs.

Not sure of the relevance, just felt like sharing...

PENETRATION: Try KTW

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