The .38 SPL FBI load, what where the specs?

[tacotime]

If I recall the .38 SPL FBI load was a 158gr LSWCHP at +P levels.

Was there any spec as to the velocity, powder, charge, bullet maker or hardness?

Thanks.

[biku324]

Remington and Winchester still make the +P 158 grain LHP. The Remington has a bigger HP.

I get an honest 800-850 fps out of my Smith M49.

[ArchAngelCD]

No way to know which powder because most ammo manufacturers use a custom blend that delivers the velocity and pressure set by the manufacturer. Reloaded company delivers what they request.

The original velocities were between 900fps and 950fps from a 4" service revolver. Today you are lucky to see 800fps.

I'm not sure but hardness varied with Remington being the softest with Federal and Winchester following in that order.

I still carry them in my M10 and M36.

[safearm]

Winchester still makes the 38SPD load, which was how the .38 Special 158 grain LSWCHP+P was labeled, although it's now labeled as the X38SPD load. From Winchester's website, they claim 890 fps at the muzzle for 278 ft-lbs of energy.

[deyomatic]

Doesn't Federal still have one, too?

[Univibe]

You could make one. You need these bullets:

Speer Bullets 38 Cal (358 Diameter) 158 Grain Lead - MPN: 4628

These are soft swaged bullets. There are also similar ones in hard-cast but they are probably too hard for expansion at snubbie velocity.

Then you need some fast or medium-fast powder; such as AA#5 powder, no more than 6.4 grains.

That'll duplicate the load.

[LoboGunLeather]

I started carrying the so-called "FBI load" about 40 years ago, primarily in a 2.5" Model 19 that was my carry gun working plain clothes law enforcement. Bought the Federal brand .38 Special +P 158 SWC-HP, probably went through 500 rounds or more from late 1970's to early 1990's. Still have a box or two in the ammo locker.

Basic spec was about 900FPS out of a 4" revolver. Remington also had a piece of the same market with a comparable load.

Main thing to understand with these, and most other lead bullet factory ammo, is that the bullets are swaged (cold-formed under pressure in a die to final form), a process that requires nearly pure lead. Bullet lubrication was minimal, an applied slurry of graphite-based emulsion. Pure lead is relatively soft, which allows for upset and expansion on impact, but also allows powder flame temperatures to melt bullet bases and generally smear lead over the cylinder walls, cylinder face, barrel forcing cone, and inside the bore.

Cleaning the revolver can be a real chore after each range session. I always used a new bronze bore brush, used dry to cut through lead wash and deposits prior to solvent and patches to complete the cleaning process. Our department qualification was 50 rounds, done every 6 months, so I just fired up my carry ammo each range day and replaced it with new ammo. My expense reports of the period indicate that I paid $12.70 per box of 50, back in the day, at the regional law enforcement supply company (no federal excise tax on LE sales).

I would not advise shooting more than about 50 rounds before cleaning. The lead transfer was always heavy, and extensive shooting would undoubtedly make cleaning more and more difficult. Wouldn't surprise me to see revolvers start to jam up from lead residue on the cylinder face and barrel forcing cone if a range session went on too long.

Glad to say I never had to use this ammo against a 2-legged target, although I think it would probably perform as well as anything for that purpose. I did have occasion to dispatch a couple of deer that had been struck by automobiles, as well as a 250-lb. sow pig (NEVER RUN OVER A PIG IF YOU CAN AVOID IT!!!). All were clean kills at close range, and no exit wounds were found. I'm sure that the "experts" can provide all sorts of data from ballistic gelatin testing (including multiple layers of denim or leather), but I'm thinking that mammals of 150-250 lbs. weight still wrapped in God's hide and hair, and with functional cardio-pulmonary systems and intact skeletal structures, provided pretty good testing media.

Lots of other choices available now, but the +P 158 SWC-HP is still a very effective choice for defensive use in my opinion.

[shouldazagged]

I've seen chronograph results that indicate the new Remington rendition is considerably watered down from their older FBI load I carried for years.

I now carry the standard pressure Buffalo Bore version, which clocks virtually identically to the good old Remington +P stuff, and employs low-flash powders and a gas-checked bullet. Their +P 158 grain LSWCHP-GC is near low-end .357 heat, and I'm told it's a thumper in an Airweight J-frame.

The FBI load has been getting the job done in two- and four-inch barreled revolvers for several decades.

[GoDevil Man]

I tested the most recent Remington version last year, March 2018. Chronograph was 15 feet down range, and the ammo averaged 895 fps from my 4 inch 65-3. Some rounds over 900, obviously some under. I thing the lowest was 882, or 876, don't have my results handy right now. Same gun, same day, American Eagle 158 grain 357 JSP averaged 1249 fps. The 357 ammo averaged 1271 fps from my 6 inch 27-2. When I carry the 65, the Winchester Silvertip 357 is loaded. In the house, 5 rounds of the Remington FBI in the cylinder, last round to be fired would be the Silvertip.

[biku324]

Originally Posted by GoDevil Man

I tested the most recent Remington version last year, March 2018. Chronograph was 15 feet down range, and the ammo averaged 895 fps from my 4 inch 65-3. Some rounds over 900, obviously some under. I thing the lowest was 882, or 876, don't have my results handy right now.

That's my experience with the Remington as well. AIR, it was 1100 fps from a Marlin 1894C with an 18.5" barrel as well. My data is 9000 miles away.

[snowman.45]

I like the Buffalo Bore 158 +P LSWCHP - GC. It get over 1000 fps out of my 2"+/- J-frames. I've been experimenting a bit and have been able to get @1000 fps using Blue Dot under under a 158 LSWCHP - GC. I've seen no pressure signs and it feels pretty similar to the Buffalo Bore. For my pre-magnum frame 60 and 36, I have loaded the Micro HST - 130 gr., I believe.

[ArchAngelCD]

Originally Posted by Univibe

You could make one. You need these bullets:

Speer Bullets 38 Cal (358 Diameter) 158 Grain Lead - MPN: 4628

These are soft swaged bullets. There are also similar ones in hard-cast but they are probably too hard for expansion at snubbie velocity.

Then you need some fast or medium-fast powder; such as AA#5 powder, no more than 6.4 grains.

That'll duplicate the load.

If you can't find those Speer bullets Hornady makes similar bullets, I have used both. AA#5 Can be used, I use HS-6 and a CCI-550 primer.

38 Caliber .358 Diameter 158 Grain Semi Wad Cutter HP Lead Pistol 300 Count by Hornady

[chief38]

Of the Big 3 Co's +P FBI load, Remington's is the best. Not that it's so powerful, it's not - but the Remington has the softest Lead and the largest HP cavity for expansion. That said, Buffalo Bore's standard pressure "FBI load is equal to or better than the Remington +P and BB's +P "FBI" load will give you 1,025 fps (actual chronograph results time and time again) with a 158 grain bullet out of a 2" Chief's Special. So in answer to your question, the BB #20A blows them all away! The price is that they are not cheap and recoil is stiff.

NOTE: I've done repeated chronograph testing on all of the fore mentioned loads/bullets and I am stating what my personal finding are - not from something I read in a "Gun Rag". They were all tested from my 2" M60-7.

[jeeps]

Load your gun with them and you are well protected. Hits count put them where they did to go and do not worry.

[Green Frog]

The FBI loads that I got were provided to me in the Spring of 1979 by an FBI agent from his issued supply. It was Federal +P nickel brass with the blue "Nyclad" SWCHP bullets. I still carry some of it and a small supply I picked up later in my EDC Chief.

Froggie

[Valmet]

Originally Posted by deyomatic

Doesn't Federal still have one, too?

Yes, I ccw it in my 442 Airweight in the summertime.

[pete950]

Aimsurplus has the Federal in stock right now $13.95 for a 50 rd box
Have case on the way. Should be good for the rest of my life!

[pasound]

pete950 - I think you cleaned them out - just checked and AimSurplus says they're sold out.

[OldCop876]

My cities two law enforcement agencies used to issue the Winchester version of the FBI load as did many others in the area, and I was able to view a few autopsies from shootings with it as well as to see shooting victims as a first responder.

In the times I saw the results from the load, it was never anything spectacular, but it seemed highly consistent and a solid performer. It seemed to give good penetration, and a couple of times we found then under the skin of the subject's back having penetrated the full torso. I found a couple trapped in clothing on the backside of the body as well.

The ones I've seen recovered from tissue looked deformed rather than classically expanded, looking a lot like pieces of dark gray parking lot gravel. I've still got this load in my Model 10 four inch. It seems somewhat "iffy" from a 2-inch barrel though where I use a somewhat lighter bullet weight.

[Univibe]

Originally Posted by OldCop876

My cities two law enforcement agencies used to issue the Winchester version of the FBI load as did many others in the area, and I was able to view a few autopsies from shootings with it as well as to see shooting victims as a first responder.

In the times I saw the results from the load, it was never anything spectacular, but it seemed highly consistent and a solid performer. It seemed to give good penetration, and a couple of times we found then under the skin of the subject's back having penetrated the full torso. I found a couple trapped in clothing on the backside of the body as well.

The ones I've seen recovered from tissue looked deformed rather than classically expanded, looking a lot like pieces of dark gray parking lot gravel. I've still got this load in my Model 10 four inch. It seems somewhat "iffy" from a 2-inch barrel though where I use a somewhat lighter bullet weight.

Most all handgun bullets taken from dead people that I've seen look like this. You can get mushrooms in the faster loadings, but mostly bullets just deform in people.

[kaaskop49]

Digest Books' LE Handgun Digest of '74 or '76 (book is buried somewhere!) had a page of ballistics taken from LE handguns. The W-W 158gr LHP ran 1014fps in a 4" 10. I remember this specifically because I used this load.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

[dr. mordo]

Here's a fantastic post from our own bmcgilvray on another forum where he experiments with duplicating the FBI load:

Four High-Performance .38 Special Handloads

Another by him with more info:

Some .38 Special Chronograph Tests

Here's one about duplicating the BB FBI load that includes info on the gas checked bullets they use to prevent leading:

Duplicating Buffalo Bore FBI Load