Can you shoot .38 +P ammo in a standard .38 special revolver?
What does the +P stand for?

Asking for a friend.

Will try to summarize the one or two other threads on this question.

For S & W revolvers, any model stamped steel K (medium) or N (large) frame revolver in .38 Special and .357 Magnum is factory approved for + P.

The J or small frame guns were not approved until the late 1980s to early ‘90s, depending on the model.

Standard .38 Special is up to 17000 psi and + P up to 20000 psi. In limited quantities even + P will not cause failure of a mechanically sound .38 Special made in the last 50 years or so, but heavy use will put extra stress on the gun.

Other opinions to follow...

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

There is little reason to use +P ammunition. The increase in performance is small, relative to the increase in cost. Now, if it is policy, some LEOrgs have chosen a +P load based on performance evaluations (Chief/Sheriff got a bribe, or was blackmailed due to a tryst with a booth babe), some follow a State or Federal Agency, looking to avoid critics (this never works.)
Geoff
Who is a cynical pessimist (retired professional pessimist) who carries reduced recoil Hornady, because my arthritic wife can handle my guns.

If the particular load in the particular gun gets and keeps the pill within its threshold for performing as designed because of the +P loading where standard pressure won't -- as is sometimes the case with defense loads especially out of snubbies -- that counts good reason to use it.

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Pickpocket

I have always felt that +P in todays world is really just standard load back in " yesteryear " and maybe even less and I'm not talking about the infamous Speer 8 manual . Regards Paul

Thanks everyone.

If you do a study on the loads used in the 1940's -1980's and
check them against todays loads, you will see what we are putting into our weapons.

True we have gone from a CUP to a PSI pressure system and some of the companies that made "Hot ammo" are no longer with us today, there are a few companies like Buffalo Bore and Underwood, that keep the torch burning.

The owner of a weapon needs to know the condition of the weapon and the use for the ammo, to select either standard or +P loads for their use.

Only firing the ammo in your weapon, will let you know if the load is a true +P loading or just hyped up by the company to get more $$$ for its ammo with it's advertising.

You KNOW what ADVERTISING is, right ?? !!

Good shopping.

Trolls cannot do it.
Regular folks can.

There is a very good reason to use +P. Many loads in snubbies need that extra oomph to expand.

and some 158 gr LswHP and 125 gr JHP bullets with the +P speeds out of a snub nose, still don't expand, while the lighter bullets don't penetrate enough.

Know what you weapon and ammo can do for you.

I think it is important to set a baseline for the discussion, it seems to me that many (too many!) don’t realize that a simple +P should be looked at critically.

Our entire industy/hobby benefits from an agreed upon industry standard. SAAMI is the organization that keeps this standard and to our benefit (and the benefit of all involved), both firearms and ammunition manufacturers usually accept and agree upon these standards.

SAAMI has designated +P as nomenclature for a small number of specific items. .38 Special+P happens to be one of them.

Generally, many many gun folks simplify things and say that +P just means higher pressure. On the other hand, and importantly so, SAAMI designates specifically what that means and when/where.

When some guy in a gun store is flapping gums and talking +P, it only means whatever he wants it to mean. When SAAMI uses it, or a gun manufacturer or ammo manufacturer uses it and follows the SAAMI standard, we can know exactly what it means.

It frustrates me when Buffalo Bore markets a product such as their .380 Auto+P because SAAMI says that doesn’t exist. Buffalo Bore is trying to say that they are marketing a round that exceeds the standard, but if it isn’t an industry-wide held standard, then exactly WHAT is it?

The +P term is tossed around casually and I wonder if folks recognize that it is a very specific standard and tossing it around casually does nobody much good.

According to SAAMI, if it isn’t 9mm+P, .38 Special+P, .38 Super+P or .45 ACP+P, it is not held to any agreed-upon industry standard.

When your gun manufacturer -AND- your ammo manufacturer both agree and follow a standard, you can and should expect your ammo to fit and function safely and properly in your firearm.

When your ammo manufacturer or source willfully or ignorantly abandons the SAAMI standard, then you should know that you are shoving ammo in to your gun that your gun manufacturer did not necessarily design the gun around.

Astute handloaders follow guidelines that ensures the ammo they craft fits within SAAMI specs. When they miss part of it, that’s when it doesn’t quite fit or does not run well or... they blow the cylinder in to two pieces, etc etc.

SAAMI standards are a blessing on this industry. Understanding them will serve you well!

....that are designed to expand at lower velocities and do pretty well in calibrated testing and in 'practical testing' (ex. Paul Harrel's 'meat target')

I have some +P ammo and standard velocity ammo in 9mm and .38 Special and in most the benefit of +P is small.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

What he said............

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dd884
JMHO-YMMV

This question, along with the K-frame forcing cone cracks, comes up all the time. Perhaps this information could be put into a "sticky" for easy and quick reference?

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VCDL, GOA, NRA

Thanks again everyone for your thorough replies.

Jeff

Plus P ammo does not seem to be an issue for carry in something like a K frame. But they make snubbies rated for .357 now, so those would digest plus ammo with no prob. I have a box of Winchester 110 grain plus P plus for police issue. Now that is something you want to avoid. I fired 5 rounds of that out of a snub model 15 one time at the range and it was quite uncomfortable to shoot and on the ears. Seemed like magnum.

Years back a federal agent friend gave me a box of very hot 110gr 38 Spl loads made by Winchester for the feds. The box had warnings all over it not to use it in any but modern, well-made weapons, and I can tell you, I only used them in a Mod 19, and sparingly. I still have 10 or 12 of then I just keep in the box as examples. Not sure what the ballistics were, but those suckers were hot! I'll take a Mack truck at 55 mph over an MG Midget at 70 any day...

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Maj, USAF, ret

There was a period of time when LE were getting boxes marked “.38 Special +P+” which is also not a SAAMI designation and the rumored backstory is that these were .357 Magnum level loads stuffed in to .38 Special brass, specifically for LE Organizations that operated in silly PR environments where being issued “magnum” sidearms was verboten.

This ammo could very well bring hell on old .38 Special revolvers, especially before the heat treated cylinders.

I suspect Sevens is correct. I own a 38 Special chambered Mod 640 that is marked "tested for +P+".
It was built on the old frame (1991) before they stretched it to accommodate the .357 (1995). I suspect that since S&W couldn't chamber a J frame in 357 (because the frame was too short), this was a way of providing 357 power in a 38 Special gun.
If true, what I own amounts to a short chambered .357
and was a step in the evolution of the 357 J frame.

I think the police that used that plus P plus stuff used something like my heavy barrel 64. Not snubs. The light JHP might help alleviate recoil some but I still have the whole box minus the 5 I tried. Even not being a full box I bet that in today's market I could sell them easily. Maybe this is a good time to sell your partial boxes of ammo or stuff that you don't use anymore.

Possible, but if +P+ ammo was LEO why would S&W build a +P+ rated J frame and mark it as such, if it wasn't aimed at the police market?

To my knowledge S&W never built a +P+ J frame revolver, when the load first came out in the 1970's, maybe in the 90's with the heavier "magnum frame" ?

The LEO +P+ load was used out of a K frame but most were not issued +P or +P+ ammo, due to the thought of "Over kill" that the public might toss at the users.
Standard 38 special loads were usually the issued ammo unless there was a "Special need" for improved ammo for the 38 special.

Winchester to my knowledge , was the only company to mark the 38 case with a +P+ marking, while the others only had +P stamped on the cases.

With my new 2 day old PC, I lost my pictures and data on my 38 & 9mm, so I can't back this up right now.
A "Doctor" is coming and hopefully I will get my data back, after surgery.

later.

Here are photos of my 38 special 640 J frame which I bought new I think in 1991 before the 357 longer frame models came out. The serial number has a prefix CEN.
It's hard to see in the photos, but it's laser etched Tested for +P+

UPDATE;

I just ran across this listing on the net for a S&W 640. Their photos are better than mine and show the +P+ markings. Interesting!
Smith & Wesson S&W Model 640, .38 Special +P+ Stainless 1 7/8" Dao Double Action Only Centennial Style Revolver .38 Special For Sale at GunAuction.com - 14549966

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Just to add an exclamation point to my diatribe of SAAMI, industry standards and their value...

SAAMI does not recognize .38 Special+P+

That means it truly has no standard.

The .460 S&W Magnum has a SAAMI max pressure of 60,000 psi. But as .38 Special +P+ has -NO- standard, it would be accurate to say that .38 Special +P+ ammo might be a box of ammo where each cartridge has a .452” bullet of 300 grains weight loaded to 60,000 psi.

(It is NOT) And yes, this sounds absolutely preposterous. In fact, it is completely preposterous and worse yet, I made it up entirely out of thin air.

I did only to demonstrate that if it isn’t built to an industry standard, they could literally make a n y t h i n g.

Have you ever heard of .the .483 Hyper T-Rex? It’s unlikely that you have ever heard of it because I made that up right now. But if you find a box of that ammo, you really don’t know what’s going on inside it, because it isn’t a SAAMI recognized cartridge.

.483 Hyper T-Rex
.380 Auto+P by Buffalo Bore
.38 Special +P+

None of these are built to an industry recognized standard.

Beware.

I agree with Stevens.
I always wondered how S&W could pressure test a revolver for a cartridge that doesn't have a pressure rating. (see post 23)
I suspect that the "Tested for +P+" marking disappeared shortly after the Co. lawyers got wind of it.
I have never seen another 640 so marked.

I have an early-70s model 36 with 3" barrel that was my mother's ( so I really don't want to change damaging it). Given the discussion here, I assume I should avoid using +P round. Unfortunately I recently ordered a box of Winchester .38 Spec that turned out to be +P when it arrived. That was a few months back, so maybe I can trade it for two boxes of standard now. ��

Milton,
you will be fine using that ammunition in a mid seventies model 36. Fifty rounds through it won't hurt anything but your hand and wallet. The 36 is a tough little beast without the forcing cone issue of the K frame.
But in these times, trading it for twice the amount of standard pressure loads would be a wise move!
OZ

As mentioned, the standard 38 special load is around 17,000 PSI.
The +P load has higher pressures that can go up to around 20,000 PSI.

I can get a 110 gr JHP out of my "J" frame snubnose with Unique powder up to a +P rating but for limited use, it can be used and I
can even get a 2" +P load with Green Dot with a lead 158 Gr bullet, so I don't think the +P speed with the right powder has that much pressure.

A +P+ load is a totally different animal and there is a reason that SAAMI does not list it for the 38 special revolver.
It is really a "Wildcat " or specialty loading for LE personnel using a heavy "K" frame weapon that can work with the high pressures.

As with the 9mm pistol, long use will work loose the weapon and end it's shooting life a lot quicker. One reason it should not be shot unless needed.

PC up running again;
Super Vel came out in 1965
158gr FBI came out in 1972
110 Treasery load out in 1972

All ammo boxs had high pressure warnings on them and most stated for LE only.

Some where I remember an RC20 rating needed on a revolver to cope with the high pressures.

Carry on.

Others have noted that there is no reason to fire +p, which is true.

However, it's nice to know that one round that you may have "slightly" overcharged by accident @ the reloading bench isn't going to blow your gun up.

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aka "Mooncat"

What standard pressure .38 Special defense loads do you recommend that have anywhere near both the extensive real-world and lab testing results of +P rounds like the "FBI" load or Gold Dot Short Barrel?

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Pickpocket

Most "Standard ammo" will work "IF" you are shooting it out of a 4" barrel.

Shooting SD ammo out of a 1 7/8" barrel 38 special is a whole new ball game !!

Feel Lucky ?

For those compact revolvers, ammo designed specifically for short barreled handguns work best. These loads are far more likely to expand at lower velocities.

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VCDL, GOA, NRA

Sitting here with my vintage Speer #8 reloading manual, where a snubby load of 8 grains of SR4756 and 158 swc shows 1023fps. Print date 1970.

As others have mentioned, loads of the past were WARM.

That being said, I prefer to feed my snubbies 148 WC loads.

Will they digest modern +p loads without issue?

Your hand will hurt before your gun gets tired.

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The American dream is alive