Ammo Test Old -vs- New for 38 Super

Set out below are the results of a chrono test of 'old' versus 'new' 38 Super factory ammo. There have been many discussions on this forum and others in recent years about the watering down of factory .38 Special and 38 Super loads. One frequent poster on this subject used the demise of factory 38 Super as part of his case to prove the same with 38 Special, quoting old and new published velocities as proof for both. It was then I decided to do a test with as much old and new 38 Super factory ammo as I could obtain. The results will be posted on both the S&W and Sig forums, and I hope to do a similar .38 Special test soon.

I was able to obtain 5 old full boxes of 38 Super 130 grain FMJ, as seen in the left side of the picture below. I regret more was not available, but this is all I could find. For comparison testing I have 6 boxes of modern 38 Super, seen on the right below. The test gun was a Colt Government Model.



The old Remington ammo in the plain box dates from the late 1930's through WWII, I was told after posting it on the International Ammunition Association collector's site. It is definitely GI, and was dispensed to the FBI (althought it is not known that it was ever used by them), and is believed to have been been shipped to England during WWII for use by the OSS in their Colt 38 Supers. It is about 70 years old. For the red/green Remington box I do not have a definite date, but believe it is from the 1950's. It is probably about 50 years old. The yellow Super X boxes I believe to be from the 1960's since they have the child warning, so are about 40 years old. If you have more definite dates for any of these boxes please share that info.

The new ammo is all of recent manufacture. In order to have an "apples to apples" comparison only 130 grain full metal jacket ammo was tested, since that is the only type of old ammo I could find. The results are below, the number following the ammo brand is the average velocity for 5 rounds 12 feet from the chronograph. I did not compute the standard deviation or extreme spread, because they do not interest me, but I have the individual shot test results on an Excel spreadsheet that I would be happy to provide to anyone who emails me for them.

New Ammo -
Magtech 1220 fps
UMC 1224 fps
Aquila 1255 fps
Remington 1224 fps
Winchester 1190 fps
Federal 1174 fps

Old Ammo -
Winchester box 1 - 1200 fps
Winchester box 2 - 1208 fps
Winchester box 3 - 1249 fps
Remington GI box - 1163 fps
Remington red/green box 1188 fps

The composite average of the new ammo was 1215 fps and the composite average of the old ammo was 1202 fps.

My personal conclusion (does not have to be the same as yours) after doing this test is that there is no significant difference between today's factory 38 Super loads and those of 70, 50, or 40 years ago. I wish there were more old ammo available for me to test, but this is all I have been able to find, and it is expensive.

If anyone has any additional ammo, test results, or opinions, please share. Thanks!

That's cool! Thanks for the info and going through the hassle and expense necessary to create it.

Armscor also has 38 Super +P and it's much less expensive.
I haven't shot any of it over a chrono yet.
A local gun store has it for $12 per 50 round box. (as of the last time I was there)

Hi Joni, I have some of the Armscor but did not include it in the test because it is only 125 grain, and for velocity comparisons wanted all tested to be the same bullet weight. I agree that it is the cheapest available.

Very informative. Even though I do not shoot .38 Super it is interesting info to have.

Aguila (sp?) also offers a +P loading though I don't have the bullet weight in my memory bank. It's been several years since it was chroned but I seem to recall it went about 1275 fps - not much of an improvement on the non-+P current loadings.

Super info...thanks for researching and posting the results!

Very interesting post. I often wonder about how potent the old time ammo really was. Thanks for the great information.

Yes, thanks for that.

Excellent post. Thank you, Stiab! It's always great to see a questions asked and answered as cleanly as you've done it here.

I look forward to 38 special chapter of your "old vs. new" research.

Mike

Very well done. I appreciate your efforts and excellent write-up.

S/W - Lifer

Thanks Stiab!
Great stuff!
C&L, that platinum blonde looks like she belongs in a night club!

Interesting stuff!

For comparison's sake:

I've chronographed Atlanta Arms & Ammo .38Super 125gr JHPs out of one of my raceguns (4.5" barrel) and it gave an average of 1394fps. It's $17.50 per box of 50 or $350/K and is outstanding quality. I saw an SD of 4 or 5 and the accuracy was extremely impressive. It's also made with new Starline brass which is worlds better than the Armsor stuff which tends to split or have loose primer pockets after two or three reloads.

Cor-Bon lists their 115gr JHP at 1450fps.

G-Man, thanks for the heads up, I'll try to find some of that ammo, sounds like good stuff. I also shot some reloads (done by a friend) during the test, and 7.0 of Unique will send 124 grain JHPs at avg 1328fps. If you up that load to 7.5 Unique it goes to 1373fps, which is the fastest I have chronoed (that was from an earlier test). I think that is a safe load in a steel gun like the Colt et al, but don't shoot those reloads in my Sig P228!!

stiab:
A Remington ammo brochure from 1941 has both 130 gr. loads of their .38 Super Automatic traveling at 1300 psi out of a 5" barrel. That would have been the Red/Green box. Just FYI.
Ed

stiab:
A Remington ammo brochure from 1941 has both 130 gr. loads of their .38 Super Automatic traveling at 1300 psi out of a 5" barrel. That would have been the Red/Green box. Just FYI.
Ed

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Thanks Ed, I appreciate the info. Looks like the red/green box is a little older than I thought.

These results are very similar to my chronograph comparison of 2007 Remington .38 Special +P 158 gr. LSWC-HP to 1977 Remington .38 Special +P LRN. Both loads generated right at 1000 fps out of my 1942 6" Colt Official Police.

stiab:
A friend gave me a 1956 Remington ammo guide today and I looked up the load in it. Things slowed down in 15 years. The same load was only going 1275 fps in 1956.
In addition, the .357 magnum had slowed from 1510 to 1430 fps, same test barrel. The newly introduced 44 magnum is listed at 1570 out of a 6.5" barrel. Just something to chew on.
Ed

Originally posted by stiab:
G-Man, thanks for the heads up, I'll try to find some of that ammo, sounds like good stuff. I also shot some reloads (done by a friend) during the test, and 7.0 of Unique will send 124 grain JHPs at avg 1328fps. If you up that load to 7.5 Unique it goes to 1373fps, which is the fastest I have chronoed (that was from an earlier test). I think that is a safe load in a steel gun like the Colt et al, but don't shoot those reloads in my Sig P228!!

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If you can get your hands on some VV N105 or 3N38, you can literally fill the case and not get enough powder in it to hurt the gun. My current load for my Open raceguns (they're both 38 Supercomp, but data is essentially identical for Super) is 10.5gr of N105 with a Montana Gold 115gr JHP at 1.235". It's been chronographed at about four major matches in the last six months and each time it's gone between 1510 and 1525fps. I'm sure I could get 1600+ if I wanted to

For 3N38 I drop down to 10.0gr as it's a tiny bit faster.

Needless to say this is a bit of a screamer, but there isn't the slightest sign of pressure and it's nice to not have to worry about bullet drop at 50yds!

and it's nice to not have to worry about bullet drop at 50yds!

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+ 1 on that. Even with these factory loads you don't need much extra front sight to hit clay pigeons embedded in the berm at 100 yards, and at 50 it's no extra front sight at all. Lots of fun!!