Found a box of .357 Western Super X .357 158 gr Metal Piercing at Gun Show.
Box states Law Enforcement, 1410' velocity/695 ft lbs at muzzle.
States to be used only in firearms designated as such.
Ammo looks good.

Question: OK to shoot in my 19-3?

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Won't hurt anything -- but the load's old enough to be edging in to collectable status. I know from long-ago experience it'll poke holes through junk cars -- although not the engine blocks, as was claimed 'way back.

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If it’s the pointy ones, they’ll bounce off of bumpers too, leaving only a dent.
That’s from first hand knowledge at least 40 years ago when the ammo was pretty new.

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How about a pic of the cartridges?

I wouldn’t shoot that up. They probably wouldn’t appreciate it at your local indoor range and it’s fairly desirable. Manufacturers can’t produce and sell AP ammo to civilians any longer, but the old ammo is OK to own and sell under federal law. State laws vary. It’s pretty pricey these days and is collectible. I’ve seen boxes sell for well over $100 online.

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Here are two pictures

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This is the first time I’ve seen this ammo. Are the cores steel or is the pointed projectile suppose to make it penetrate metal?


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Tested some back in the 70’s, pretty good at going through vehicle sheet metal and IIRC went in one side of block of old engine. Think I have 1 or 2 somewhere.

I keep one in my pocket

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Back in the day, I got some of that ammo.

I figured it would out perform swc or jacketed 357 in terms of penetration. I was disappointed.

The stuff didn’t penetrate railroad ties or junkyard cars any better than swc or soft point jacketed 357 ammo.

It did display a tendency to ricochet when fired at heavy sheet metal or windshield glass at less than 90 degrees.

.38 special cartridge that looks just like the .357 magnums.
I wonder if it is +P. Any guesses how old?
Don’t know anything about it really, except it is in my collection of cartridges.
Since I have only one I don’t think I will test it. 😄

Long ago had a box.
As I recall, they shot hot.
I think I shot some holes through some old car bodies.

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Well, if that 1410 fps rating isn't an advertising hype result that they got by jiggering the test it ought to shoot a good bit hotter than about anything you can buy today.

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I have some of those, I thought they were handloads.

I also have some of the .22 sabot rounds for .30-30 and .30-06.

I have a box of both 38 and 357 metal piercing ammo. I pulled and sectioned several bullets. They have a soft lead core not steel, and the jacket is no thicker at the tip than on the rest of the bullet.

I'd categorize that as collector ammo these days.

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I experimented with the .357 and .38 Special versions of those years ago. Both behaved similarly to FMJ 9mm on auto sheet metal; the .357 only more so. Only the tip of the bullets are jacketed; a guilding metal cap. The bearing surfaces that contact the bore are lubricated lead just like 158 gr RNL.

There are 2 W-W versions in .38 Special. One is conical shaped just like the OP's photos. The other has a curved ogive similar to a FMJ .30 military ball; but much shorter. Both are listed as H.V., similar to what later became +P.

I also had some .38 Special standard velocity 'Metal Capped' rounds. Those had lead 158gr bullets that had a round nose, guilding metal cap covering the bullet noses. They also had lubricated lead bearing surfaces.

I believe all of these rounds were designed to increase auto body penetration and nothing more. Laws regulating AP handgun ammo do not apply to these designs because they do not have hard metal cores. They have solid lead cores.

Years ago a mentor gave me a dozen of the .357 and told me they would not penetrate any better than a hard SWC. I tried them on car wheels and found that too be true. I bought a box and shot 6 with the same results and I still have the remaining 44. I have never shot a car engine but a hard 158 gr. SWC will knock a hole in a 50s Ford tractor engine, a DeSota transmisson housing and 40s and 50s car wheels. Larry

Some seem not to notice that 'metal piercing' is not the same as true AP.
Already stated, but these were really nothing but the soft swaged lead bullets with a cute little pointy copper cap on top.
They had no special properties other than perhaps getting through sheet metal a little better than some duty rounds.

I'm sure that some Coppers of old liked how they looked on a cartridge slide also

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Back in the day, I carried six rounds of these rounds in my 12 round duty cartridge loops.

A long time ago one of our local cops shot a drunk with one of those. The pointed bullet zipped right through his chest and the guy hardly acted like he’d been hit. He remained on his feet until he was hauled away to the hospital. He recovered, and the cop later gave up the cops & robbers business for other pursuits - not because of the shooting incident, as far as I know.

Lots of people had crazy ideas about them. A friend got a hold of a box and shot a couple at an old railroad sign with his 8-3/8” Model 27. It was pretty heavy steel - maybe 1/4” or even a bit thicker. They dented the sign a bit more than a cast LSWC, but didn’t make it through. The KTW rounds were a bit different. He had exactly one of those, a .38 Special I believe, and it went right through. He also shot a couple of jacketed hollow-points at the sign. I was standing close by, watching the festivities, and one shed it’s jacket, which came straight back probably fifty-feet or so and hit me in the chest. I had on a leather jacket. It left a mark on the jacket, but mercifully did me no harm. I got the honor, like the drunk, of saying I’d been shot with a .357 (), and also lost my interest in watching further steel plate shooting experiments.

IIRC when we tested these we used removed car doors, shot them straight on, window up and window down, did go through but doubt it would have at an angle.

I carried the pictured KTW armor piercing rounds on duty in the 1970s, just in case. These rounds were also available to the public. They would zip right through body armor and were designed to penetrate auto bodies and engine blocks. Heavy chrome plated bumpers were penetrated with ease. Although no police officer was ever known to be shot with or killed by a KTW round, they earned a reputation as a "cop killer" round and were banned.

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Those bullets were never intended to penetrate armor, they were simply designed to penetrate car body sheet metal and glass better than lead RN bullets (which was what most cops of 40 years or more ago carried). The W-W MP bullets were jacketed lead core, however the conical jacket nose was much thicker than that used in normal RN-FMJ bullets (at least that is what the W-W advertising said). The similar Remington/Peters metal piercing factory load used zinc die cast bullets which were somewhat lighter in weight and had a higher velocity. They called them the Highway Master (or maybe Hi-Way Master, I don't remember). I have no idea which style bullet penetrated cars better. I don't think any of the major ammo manufacturers have made MP handgun loads for a long time. I have some experience with the KTW loads (there were several very different bullet types), and in fact I knew K, T, and W. They weren't much more than novelty items. No one really wanted or needed them.

Correct; the .38-44 High Velocity round was developed for increased penetration of auto bodies in response to the widespread use of automobiles by the auto bandits of the 30's. The metal point rounds improved on those.


I remember seeing a KTW load that used a very dark colored, 200gr pointed bullet. It was in a 70's Gun Digest article if I remember correctly.

Back when I started as an LEO in the early 70's, my partner and I split the cost of a box at Sporting Goods Inc and proceeded to an old abandoned furnace along the Ship Chanel and fired several rounds into a steel pipe. They dented the hell out of it but no penetration.We were not impressed. We then unlimbered an M-1 Garand with .30 caliber AP ammo and we were very, very impressed!

Thanks to all for this information. I recently found I was the benefactor of a box of this ammunition in and among my dad's possessions that I received after his death in 2014. Where/when ever he purchased it, the box cost $6.20. That fact alone indicated to me its age (I'd love to buy ammo at those prices). The slug does not attract to a magnet, even an extremely strong neodymium magnet. So I did not believe it to be armor piercing. Besides the partial box there were 6 rounds of it in a leather gun belt for a pistol. I removed them from the gun belt and put them back in the box. I will have to reach out to some cartridge collectors here in Colorado to see if they are still worth anything.

Have good times all.

Interesting.



I wonder how this would compare in a penetration test vs. a Lyman 358093 gas checked pointed bullet (nominal 125gr.), hard cast out of mono-type, at a similar or max velocity?

I don’t know if Winchester but similar bullet was loaded in 44magnum in 1960s. I think in NRA magazine it had a picture of a Ruger 44 carbine, originals with tube magazine, that blew up. Cause was pointed bullet into primer from recoil.

The W-W MP bullet differed from FMJ bullets in two respects. First, they had a conical nose. Second, the jacket in the nose area was thickened. Their purpose was never to penetrate armor plating or engine blocks, but auto body metal and glass more effectively. Remington also offered MP handgun cartridges in several calibers, but theirs used a bullet made of a hard zinc die casting alloy called Zamak which was lighter in weight and had a considerably higher MV. They called theirs the "Hi-Way Master." Regarding value, it depends mainly on the condition of the box and if it is full or not. MP cartridges are not rare, and single rounds would probably sell for around a buck or so each. But a full box in very good condition might go for maybe 50-100% more.

I don't know when their production ceased, but certainly quite a long time ago. The box pictured is probably from the 1960s. PM me the lot number (usually stamped on an end flap) and I can probably date yours more precisely.

Once had a box.
I Shot away! All long gone.
But now a days I would consider the collector value before I pulled that trigger.

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I like this ammo and have a few full US and german boxes

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Just a follow up…

This ratty box of Western .357 Metal Piercing recently sold on GB for $99.55 shipped. There were only 26 rounds remaining.

It may not be good for the intended purpose, but it can be fairly valuable “junk”!

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Back before JSP and JHP loads for the .357 were available, I believe the only options in factory ammunition for this caliber were this MP round and a swaged bullet that leaded badly. For those LEOs and others who actually carried magnums loaded in their revolvers, I would guess that the MP might have been a better choice.

Has anyone seen any history on this? I'm not sure when the classic .357 158 grain JSP was introduced, but I think it predated the sale of JHPs.

Anyway, interesting thread on the MPs!