I am moving together with my girlfriend and we are planning to get 12 or 20 gauge coach for self defense purposes.

Why just coach gun you way ask? Well that is because of legal reasons. My gf does not have special weapons permition like I do so the only weapon that can be kept loaded in reach for every person abvove 18 years old is a double barreled coach gun or a bolt action rifle. Other guns have to be kept locked and unloaded in safe which make these other guns not very suitable for an ermengecy situation.

I have lots of experience with shooting a 12 gauge baikal at the range. I used to own one of them before I had to sell it. I took my gf to the range to to use the Baikail. To cut the long story short she did not enjoy shooting the baikal due to the strong recoil the 12 gauge full power buckshot round.

For me the recoil was manageable but also more on the stout side.

So I am thinking know of getting a 12 gauge coach gun using reduced recoil loads or to get a 20 gauge.

is there any significant difference between a reduced recoil 12 gauge round vs the 20 gauge in the power and recoil department?

Concerning the price 20 gauge rounds would be more common place and cheaper than the special tactical rounds.

An another advantage would be that you get 12 gauge with 00 buckshot unlike the 20 gauge were I have not seen any 00 rounds.

The only buckshot size I could find in my local gun store besides birdshot (not so good for self defense) were the #4 buck rounds. I do not consider that fact as drawback.

#4 buck should more than enough for a short range indoor self defense scenario I suppose. it also recommended in many articles in the net as one the best shot sizes for self defense.

Would be pleased hearing a few opinions on that matter.

Thanks for the help in advance.

Greetings from Austria

In my opinion the 20 ga. kicks about the same as a 12ga. with the same type of load.
I really like the 12 ga. personally I used a 12 ga. when I used to do Cowboy Action shooting with Winchester Low report Low recoil loads.
As for home defense I really like Federals mini #4 buckshot loads but in some pump guns they may not feed well; but in a side x side they should be fine and do kick a lot less and should work fine at self defense ranges.

Thanks for your feedback. in that case going with the 12 gauge is the better option due the better ammo avaibility. 20 gauge ammo is way scarse here in Austria compared to the 12/70 rounds.The federal mini shells sounds interesting. Federal is great brand for shotgun ammo anyway. The 12 gauge 00 buckshot from federal was my to go ammo at the time I had my first baikal 12 gauge.

When my wife and I competed in CAS she started with a 20 ga. and hated stages that required several shotgun rounds. They beat her shoulder to pieces. I kept trying to get her to try my 12 with Winchester AA light loads. She finally did in one match..... and I had to find myself another shotgun since she immediately “claimed” mine.

I see often people loading buckshot rounds for home defense. Take some light recoiling 12 ga. loads with 7 1/2 shot and shoot a silhouette target at “inside the home” ranges. The single hole you will blow in the target might surprise you. They are more than adequate for home defense. A double barrel 12 ga. coach gun with a few spare rounds in a sleeve on the butt stock may well be the perfect home defense combo.

Best of luck with your choices.

Dan

agent00 yes the 12 ga. seems to be more available in various type of loadings but I truly love the 12 ga.

Most 20 gauge shotguns are lighter than the equivalent model in 12 gauge. All else being equal lighter guns kick more than heavy ones. Go with the 12 gauge and reduced recoil ammo.

If you can find them the mini shotshells from Federal, Aguila and other companies will have even less recoil but still be powerful enough to be effective. Their biggest drawback is many guns do not feed them well but that will not be an issue with a coach gun.

@BigMuddy Thx for your very interesting feedback.

@sureshotbob I also like 12 gauge. It is an interesting shotgun gauge and i really enjoyed using my 12 gauge baikal when I had it. It was really fun shooting it even though the recoil is quite stiff compared to my first shotgun a single shot 28 gauge gun.

I personally would always prefer the 12 gauge compared to the 20 gauge because I personally consider the 12 gauge a more versitile caliber compared to the 20 when the avaibility of ammo is concerned. I was just thinking about the 20 gauge to give my gf a better entry point in the world of shotgun usage because she really disliked the kick of the full power buckshot. But as I have learned here in the forum there are decent options to minimise the recoil issue there is no reason not to go with the 12.

You may also want to look at an American company's website called Limbsaver. They manufacture recoil pads (fixed and slip-on types), and they have a pretty good reputation here for reducing recoil on many different types of firearms. Good luck.

If you can buy 12Ga shells and 20Ga are scarce, 12 for sure!
And for short range home defense you don’t need to load up with the really heavy loads.
And you both need to practice with the New Shotgun.

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That has always been my thought for people that have a problem with recoil and then if in the future they want more power and can stand the recoil they already have the gun. Larry

Have you thought about a 12 Ga. with..................

mercury pills or extra weights added to it, to help reduce the recoil, even more ??

Embedded in the foreare or placed inside the rear stock can add Lots of weight, if needed.

Tungsten Bass weights, if nothing else, .......... smaller and heavier than lead !!

Trap loads and light birdshot are excellent SD loads out to 30 yards.

Gruess Gott Agent00. Wo in Oesterreich wohnst du? Ich habe Verwandtschaft in Wien und Graz.

As noted in a post above, keep in mind that 20 gauge shotguns are usually made on a smaller and lighter frame than 12 gauge shotguns. The reduction in weight may equalize the recoil between the two gauges.

Perhaps a good double barrel skeet shotgun with 26" barrels would be useful. It would still be handy, yet you could hunt with it as well as shoot it at the skeet shooting range at clay pigeons.

By the way, No. 4 Buckshot is certainly useful for self-defense.

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There are reduced recoil loads that are designed to also provide tighter patterns. 8 pellet 00 is one. I think Federal has the broadest line of such, but that memory is subject to correction.

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Not to start that debate up again, but for "short range indoor self defense" I wouldn't feel a bit under-gunned with birdshot. Police work or military duty would be a different story, but birdshot is pretty darn effective at room range.

But back to your original question, I'd go with the 12 gauge. Generally larger and cheaper ammo selection available and you can shoot anything from 20 gauge level loads up to full magnum 12 gauge. We used to hunt doves with pretty much 20 gauge level loads in our 12 gauges just to save costs and wear and tear on our shoulders.

Well OP,

You being a Baikal fan. Mine would suit your needs,
if you could find one. TOZ-66, 20" 12 gauge they made back in the 80's, a bit crude, but built like a tank.

Light 12 gauge loads are perfectly adequate for home defense distance.

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Yes that makes sense. I just repeated what many articles about self defense with shoguns that birdshot is just for bird but after watching some ballistics tests with gel and other test media and I also do not see why some heavier birdshot should not be effective for short range self defense at room distance. It looks way more devestating than the articles that belittled birdshot for self defense scenarios. They are not the best and for sure not suitable for longer ranges but for short range they should be effective.


@rb1200 Thx for the recommendation. The Toz66 really looks awesome. I will check out if I can find one.

Scharfschuetzer I live in Klagenfurt

Allow me to make a couple of points about birdshot and results in various test media.

First and foremost, the reason many people choose birdshot is the belief that any stray pellets won't pass through interior walls and endanger others. That's simply nonsense in the age of drywall. The only projectile I've tested that reliably stops in a simulated drywall interior partition is a .177 pellet at about 300 f/s. Now there are various types of drywall, there might be a fire barrier or other heftier version that would keep birdshot from passing through, but it's safer to assume that it will.

Perhaps the major issue of those tests is that, in the real world, the birdshot has to crush it's way through the rib cage before it reaches vital organs. There might be some tests that attempt to introduce something similar to a rib cage, but the only one I've seen was laughable.

In addition, the rib cage on a living critter has considerable flexibility. In the case of a human rib cage, the body can also move with the impact to further mitigate penetration. The gel blocks have niether the flexibility to move with impact nor the flexible rib cage to help mitigate penetration.

Having said that, I don't doubt there are instances where birdshot did what some folks claim it does. However, there are also folks who hit the lottery. I should also point out that buckshot has occasionally not lived up to the myth and legend. Repeating an old bit of advice: one doesn't shoot someone until you think he's stopped. You shoot them until they know they're stopped.

Agent 00 - neat question and wonderfully well reasoned. I gained some interesting information from your question and the responses.

My experience follows the general consensus - minor differences at best between 12 and 20 gauge when applied to your situation.

Personally, I enjoy no shotguns, except that semi-auto gas guns which make 12 gauge pretty tolerable. I have yet to find a single or double gun that was fun to shoot, but some recoil pads for the shoulder and anti-vibration gloves for the shooting hand help too.

All wish you the best with the new roommate!

Everyone is talking Lead.....................

I would hate to get hit with BB or #T steel pellets at close range !!

If they drop Honkers at 65 yards.......................
I am pretty sure they will work at 10 yards for SD use ?? !!

Have you ever considered splitting the difference?
Maybe a 16 gauge coach gun?

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I had the same decision to make and went with a 20 gauge Winchester pump.
The largest buckshot I could find is imported #1 and the largest US made is #3.

There is another option, but it requires more labor.

I only buy 7 1/2 or 8 birdshot. But I cut them down to make #4 Buckshot minishells for my Mossberg Shockwave. It doesn't require a lot of skill, and I have no hesitation in using them for home defense.

I am a sample size of one, but according to my shoulder 20 gauge recoils less than, a somewhat comparable, reduced recoil 12 gauge round, even though 20 gauge shotguns are lighter. With the 20, you do not have to hunt for specialty "reduced recoil" loads, as most (all in my opinion) 20 gauge buck and slug loads are very manageable.

I love 12 gauge shotguns, but for me the 20 gauge is the best combination of performance, payload, recoil, and weight. The only real negative is that there are not as many options when it comes to both shotguns and ammo.

It is a shame that the 12 gauge or nothing crowd overlooks them.

No I haven't cosidered yet another caliber besides the 12 and the 20 gauge. But that might be an option as well. I will research about the guns and the ammo availability here in Austria.


@All thanks a lot for all the other infomation. It was very enlighting.

If finding 20 gauge ammo is part of the problem buying a 16 gauge shotgun is not the solution.

My dad is 92 and is recoil sensitive. He can shoot a 20 but not a 12.

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That is a valid assumption I thought so to but apparently 16/70 is in Austria a more popular gauge than the 20. There are many different hunting loads available . Many more than in 20 gauge. Even buckshot would be obtainable.

#1 buck from federal which seems quite a decent buckshot load.


They are no 16 gauge coach runs around anymore it seems so 16 gauge is out the question.

OK - somebody has to say it.....here goes.....

Hello Agent00!

Who keeps the gun , in the event of a relationship break-up?
If you pay for the gun , place / keep the receipt in a safe place.

also...all of the above replies are all great advice.
I would go w whatever ammo is more readily available in Austria. 12G reduced-recoil is more than enough to accomplish your goals!

I recently bought a Rock Island Arsenal single shot 20 gauge and recoil is brutal with even the lightest loads.

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I second the recommendation for a Limbsaver recoil pad. I put one on my 12 gauge double and there is a big difference in felt recoil.

In addition to what WR Moore said, remember that an intruder is likely wearing clothes. Depending on what time of year it is and other variables, the projectiles might have to penetrate pretty heavy stuff to get to the body.
Do I want to get shot with bird shot? Nope. I don't want to get shot with anything. That does not mean I consider it to be adequately reliable for social use.

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Yes you and WR Moore made some valid points. I would it put it this wayI do not doubt that some bigger birdshot could be devestating at close range but it might also not work as iintended.

For self defense it important to leave nothing to chance and use the best ammo out there. And that is buckshot.

in 12 gauge the availability is decent. . Have done some more research about the online avaibility of buckshot and it looks ok. Everything is on back order now but at least in theory it should be possible to get tactical stuff from federal. Horandy sells their tap reduced recoil rounds and hornady tap light magnum rounds. There also some self defense branded 00 buckshot from Fioochi available.

12 or 20 doesn't have anything to do with recoil. Recoil is determined by the speed and weight of the shot and weight of the gun. There are 12 ga. loads that have the weight shot at the same speed as 20 ga. loads and if the 12 ga. is a heavier gun the recoil will be less. Larry

This is what recoil is all about.

Plus add to it the physical stock dimensions of the gun,,,how it fits the shooter. This alone can make a fairly mild load seem to recoil excessivly.
Too much drop,,short LOP,,thin comb, etc.

Ditto. My 12-gauge 870 Remington is kept loaded with field loads of BB-shot, basically a heavy goose load. About 90 pellets of .17 to .18 caliber. The longest straight-line distance inside my home is under 40 feet, and at that range I doubt the recipient would be able to tell the difference between 1-1/4 oz. BB-shot and either buckshot or slug.

For those sensitive to recoil a very simple solution is using target loads (12-gauge 2-3/4" 1-oz. #7-1/2 or #8 shot). These are usually available from Federal, Winchester, and Remington at bargain prices. Perfectly good for training and practice use. If you feel the need for something more potent for home defense, some heavy waterfowl loads (BB, T, #2, etc) can be loaded for that purpose, and I doubt the difference in recoil will be noticed in a defensive use situation.

Ask any cop who has ever investigated a death involving shotgun wounds at close range; you don't want to be on the receiving end of ANY SHOTGUN LOAD from across the room distance.

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I find that 20ga loads often try to compensate for not being a 12 ga and negate the effort of downsizing.. the available spectrum of 12ga ammo selection allows it to be whatever you need it to be.

Yeah thanks for the recommendation. the limbersaver recoil pads really look interesting. I will get one for sure.

I am also interested in using slugs in my future coach gun not for home defense (that would be overkill) but for target shooting. So some additional means to compensate the recoil the coach gun is a must .

@robvious That makes sense to me what are you saying. The 20 gauge is for sure an interesting round that can be very useful but when putting the ammo avaibility for my personal situation into the account a 12 gauge would be the smarter choice. There are many different power levels available for that gauge so there is not really a point that speaks against the 12 gauge.

My decision is made. I will go for 12 gauge.

The only remaining question left is which 12 gauge we are going to chose.

Hopefuly our local range is open again in january I and my gf will go to our range and try out the some coach guns they have available to find out which one suits us best .

I'll have to cast one vote for the 20's. I own 4 of them, including my new Bennelli. If you compare the recoil of the two, the 20 is a little less. According to Chuck Hawks's table a:
20ga 2.75" (7/8 at 1200) is about 16.1 - Your going to feel it.
12ga 2.75" (1 at 1180) is 17.3 not much more.
But carrying the gun through the fields, I notice the difference.
If I were buying foe defensive only, I'd probably go with the 12 because of ammo available. But walking the fields for squirrel, rabbit an quail. I like my 20's.

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My guess is that in an SD situation recoil won't be your biggest concern.

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Apples and oranges. Your speed and shot charge is not the same. FPS is pretty close but change the 20 to 1 oz. or the 12 to 7/8 oz. and there will be a big change. Larry

@Bronco89 Yeah the weight of the shotgun is a factor that should be considered as well if you need to carry around the gun for quite some time. For my specific needs that factor is irrvelant though. The gun is only used for target/fun shooting and for home defense. In that case a heavier gun is not a big disvantange. Because the shotgun is not going to be carried around for an extended period on time.

ps: Is someone of you familar with Stoeger shotguns ? I have never heard about them before and I had norrowed my potential chocies down already to either the Baikal MP-43KH or a uberti coach gun, but the stoeger double defense looks also quite nice and the price looks good too.

agent00: Go with the 12 GA. I live in Switzerland and I have a doublebarrel shotgun in 20 GA and shotguns in 12 GA.
20 GA ammo is harder to find, there is less choice and it is more expensive.
From my point of view there is no good reason to buy a 20 GA if you can also buy a 12 GA.

Buy ammunition from different manufacturers and compare the felt recoil. There are huge differences.

If you are just looking for recoil numbers........
here are some numbers if your shotgun weighs 7 pounds with 1 oz. payloads.

20 Ga. 2 3/4" #2 Buck (15) at 1220 fps......................... 19.7 ft/lbs
12 Ga. 2 3/4" 00 Buck (9) at 1145 fps (reduced load) ... 17.6
12 Ga. 2 3/4 BB steel (72) at 1250 fps ......................... 20

Pretty much a toss up, except for pellet counts.

Yes it is the same here in Austria. 12 gauge widely available and 20 gauge rather hard to find compared to the plenty of different loads available in 12 gauge.

Trying out different manufactures is also good advice to compare the recoil. I was planning to that as well.

I also want to try out different slugs. Only for target shooting though. For sd I will either use some heavy lead or stell birdshot or 00 buck.

@All speaking of steel shot. Can steel shot be used in any shotgun or does the shotgun need to be certified for it.

As a layman I would say that due to the fact is harder than lead it migh be bad for the barrel but maybe I am just overthinking things.

I have read online that certain guns have special marks for steel shot online but my prefered shotguns

Baikal MP-43KH or the standard baikal guns does not seem to have such certificates.

I am unsure now if steel shot can be used.


@Neveda Ed thanks a lot for submitting the recoil numbers.

The difference is really not that big when the recoil numbers are concerned. Considering the better availability of 12 gauge rounds in my country the 12 gauge is the better choice for sure.

As I have said I already have decided that is going to be the 12.

The only remaining question left is which gun it is going to be. the 2 baikals or the stoeger double defense?

The 12 gauge coach gun from Uberti would be a honrable mention. It would be more expensive than the other choices but I really like the classic look of that shotgun. I like these old west type revolvers and also rifles.

With steel , the old modified choke acts like a "Full choke" with steel pellets.
Steel does much better with a skeet or Cylinder choke, so there will be very little
chance of the hard pellets and wad, going down and out the barrel, to bulge the barrel...........
if the metal is softer than the steel pellets.

One reason the newer duck hunting shotguns have long 3" chokes made out of special materials,
that thread into the muzzle ends, to prevent damage and also give a good pattern for hunters.

I just tossed the steel ammo out there, just in case someone had a hunting
gun they might use, if they did not have the old style shotguns, at hand
designed for lead pellets.

Just to make a point for the 20: you'll still be shooting the same gun till you're well into your 80's. I used a 12G LCSmith till I was almost 70. I switched over to an LC in 20 a couple years ago and have no regrets. Lighter is better - whether afield or not. Sure you don't mind the 12 gauge weight, but your GF might. In house self defense means adrenalin will eat up any recoil issues. Nobody likes any size hole punched into them - 12G or 20G. Your garden variety brigand won't hang around to measure the hole size, he'll head back to his lair for that. Pronto. My go to home defense gun is a 12 double. Any load works. Try to get something that won't go through three or four apartments. Double 12's were real cheap a few years ago at auction. I got an 80 year old one for a hundred bucks several years ago and now it sports 20 inch barrels. 12 is a good choice, but if you find a deal on a 20, don't feel you'll be short-changed. Besides, you can always swap it off later on (when the perfect 12 comes along). The gun you have is much better than the gun you're waiting to find.

At typical distances inside a house, loads using smaller shot sizes will be effective for SD, but I would prefer using the largest bird shot sizes available to get better penetration through clothing. If handloading is an option, I would make up light loads of 2 or 4 shot. I do not know if light loads of #4 Buck are available, but if they are, that is what I would suggest.

agent00, I load my short barrel home defense shotgun with #4 Buckshot and it feels softer that 000 Buck.

I didn't see this suggestion, I don't know what kind of a recoil pad is on the shotgun you are looking to buy. I had a single shot 12ga that was just brutal on my shoulder. I bought a slip on recoil pad like made by Limbsaver. It will make a huge difference in her shoulder even if the gun has a small pad on the stock. I don't know if that company is sold in your country but if yoh do buy be sure it's a high quality slip on pad or you will waste your money.

Here is a link to their company site so you can get an idea what to look for.
AirTech Slip-On Recoil Pad – LimbSaver Online Store

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Thanks for the advice. Well reolading would be possible in Theory but you Need a special licencese to do so here in Austria. I would be interested in learning reloading but I have not optained the license yet. So factory rounds is the only way to go.

#4 Buck rounds are available here in Austria. Not as ubiquitous as 00 buckshot but the Winchester Super-X Ammunition in #4 Buck is always sold by my local gunstore. It is on backorder now but in Theory still fully obtainable.

ArchAngelCD Thanks a lot for your advice with the recoil pad.


@all is it possible to load 12 gauge 2+3⁄4-inch (12/70) in 3 Inch (12/76mm) shotguns like the System with using 38 special in a 357 mag Revolver?

12/76 guns were not on my Radar to be honest because using that Kind of ammo would be a Overkill for target/fun Shooting and for hd. Not to speak About the highter Costs.

But according to my local gun store clark there will be a used Chaparral Arms Wyatt Earp 1878 Coach gun at sale next week hich grasped my attention. As I said above I am into These old old west type guns.

In case the Price is really that attractive ( the clark did not tell me the Price yet, he just told me that is going to be much under the retail Price) and my gf likes the look and feels of the gun that would be an Option too.

But only if I can use 12/70 rounds in it too. 12/76 rounds would be widely available but the Price is isane for lots of Shooting.

What are your thoughts about the guns from Chaparral Arms in General?