Why the .350 Legend?

I noted S&W is now advertising a Model 350 revolver in .350 Legend.

I’m dubious about doing a repeat of the .357 Maximum revolver debacle with a very similar rimless round, running at 55,000 psi when the top strap cutting and forcing cone erosion was already epic with the 40,000 psi .357 Maximum.

But that’s a different post….

Here I’m asking what is the deal with the .350 Legend and why launch a new straight wall cartridge when the existing cartridges out there fill the 200 yard deer role as good as or better?

I don’t know that the .350 Legend will do any better than the .357 Max out to a revolver, but the .350 Legend doesn’t impress me out of a 20” rifle or carbine.

A 170 gr bullet at 2250 fps isn’t stellar even for a 200 yard lever gun deer straight wall cartridge.

I get where the short case length might be a plus. Some of the states that limit rifle hunting to pistol cartridges are also now limiting the max case length of a pistol cartridge used in a rifle to 1.800”. However, most of those states also grandfather in previously legal straight wall rounds like the .375 Win, .38-55, and in some cases the .444 Marlin and .45-70. (Iowa, Ohio, etc.)

Indiana is about the only state I can see where the .350 Legend has a significant edge of hunting on public land as the .375 Win. .38-55, etc are excluded by case length and not grandfathered.

Performance wise, the .350 Legend, zeroed at 200 yards will have a maximum mid range trajectory of 4.8” at 110 yards and be 5” low at 234 yards. At 200 yards it will have a velocity of 1493fps and 841 ft pounds of energy.

In comparison a conservative factory loaded .375 Winchester will launch a 200 gr bullet at 2200 fps. With a 205 yard zero it will have a max mid range trajectory of 4.7” high at 115 yards and be 5” low at 243 yards. At 200 yards it will retain 1665 fps with 1241 ft pounds.

Consequently, at 200 yards that’s over 50% more energy, and a .379 unexpanded diameter to start with compared to .357 for .350 Legend. With a remaining velocity over 1600 fps the bullet will also be more likely to reliably expand.

The .350 Legend doesn’t exactly blow the .38-55 away either. Buffalo Bore also makes a .38-55 “heavy” load designed for modern 38-55 rifles that launches a 255 gr bullet at 1950 fps. Zeroed for 180 yards it has a max mid range trajectory of 5” at 100 yards and is 5” low at 212 yards. At 200 yards it retains 1304 fps and 962 ft pounds. Compared to the .350 Legend it has a little shorter maximum point blank range, but a little more energy, and a lot more momentum.

Even with a standard .38-55 load with the same bullet at 1600 fps the .38-55 looks good. With a 150 yard zero it’s 4.8” high at 90 yards and 5” low at 177. At 200 yards it retains 1101 fps and 687 ft pounds. The .350 Legend really only adds 50 yards of energy and trajectory to the standard jacketed .38-55.

(That relative performance is also a strong argument to lobby legislatures in states like Indiana to include the .38-55 as the .350 Legend is approved and the .38-55 has very similar performance.)

——

I guess my real question is why aren’t the .375 Winchester and .38-55 making more of a comeback in straight wall pistol cartridge restricted states, and what aren’t rifle and ammo manufacturers getting on board?

I’m also curious why states might approve the .350 Legend, and even allow its use in a semi auto and not approve the .38-55 in a lever gun?

The only reason I can see S&W chambering it in the X-Frame is because the round has become semi popular with the MSR crowd. The 350 has become so because it fills a niche in the AR market, and because of the straight walled limitations in some states. I know of no other heavy projectile cartridge capable of being chambered in an AR-15 other than the 45 and 50 cal rounds that give away too much in magazine capacity for too little performance. The 350 also uses a standard 5.56 AR bolt, unlike most of the other AR hunting calibers. The other advantage was Winchester offering an inexpensive plinking round right out of the gate. And that ammo was always available on the shelf when many if not most others were not.

My recollection of the 357 Maximum issue was around light for caliber bullets pushed at the very limits of pressure. The 350 could possibly have issue but not thinking this with sane/factory loading.
460 runs max of 10,000 more than the 350 and some lighter bullets. Not hearing complaints of strap cutting on the 460 in the x frame.

I understand the love for the 38-55. Back when I did hunt, I was a short range stalk hunter. More exciting for me to get really close for a shot instead of trying to hit ‘‘em a mile away.

In southern Michigan the case length restrictions exclude the 45/70 class of rounds, AR rifles are very popular, but won't feed 357 Max, and even tapered cases get a no go from our DNR. 375 Winchester is not on the acceptable list.

Idiots in charge of making the hunting rules in certain states are what made for the 350 Legend. Sabot loaded muzzleloaders making 45/70 power levels were just fine, but 30/30 Winchesters were far too powerful and too long range to use in the south. They make the rules though, we just have to adjust to them.

.....I guess my real question is why aren’t the .375 Winchester and .38-55 making more of a comeback in straight wall pistol cartridge restricted states, and what aren’t rifle and ammo manufacturers getting on board?..."


I think that is simply because 'old' doesn't sell.
Retro has a niche market, but it doesn't last for long.

Trying to get new shooters interested in the tried and true older cartridges is a loosing marketing/profit maker.

It's all the better if the cartridge can fit in an AR.

The stupid part is that a 458WM, or more powerful 450 Lott are perfectly legal in our “shotgun or straight wall” counties… but God forbid a 257 Roberts or 243W.

The 350 Legend is hugely popular here.

And available in cheap rifle - $349 for a usable Savage package including scope.

Why is easy…… it seems to be the only ammo available at every store and Walmart.

I don't understand the hubbub about S&W doing this (there's at least two threads currrntly on this forum). A major ammunition maker, Winchester, had already developed the cartridge, and evidently it has some interest in long guns according to articles I've read.

S&W already had a revolver capable of handling the cartridge, so why not make some for people that are interested.

It's not for me, but if a 170 grain bullet at almost 2300 fps won't work on white tails, someone forgot to tell the .30-30 and .32 Special.

If you are a fan of the AR-15 platform (a.k.a. the MSR) and a hunter living in certain States(?) having a pistol that shoots the same ammo is a definite plus...? Unless someone decides that your pistol would be a weapon of MASS DESTRUCTION!

CHEERS!

P.S. That pistol may cost a lot more than your rifle, BTW!

P.P.S. Thank GOD we don't get ALL the guv'ment we pay for!

Measure the length of the X frame cylinder and then compare that to the length of the cartridges mentioned. .350 Legend will fit (barely) and none of the others will.

Additionally you have to consider the current level of popularity of a cartridge. I picked up about 150 .350 Legend pieces of brass last fall. 3 straight visits to the range netted 2 or 3 boxes per visit. I don’t think I’ve ever found a single .38-55 or .375 Winchester case at the range.

A small course correction might be needed here, and let me point out it’s in the ammo forum for a reason.

I didn’t create this as a thread about the S&W Model 350, (although I question the wisdom of it given the issues with the .357 Maximum, but that is a topic for the other thread).

My intent here is instead a discussion of why the .350 Legend is popular in the first place as a rifle cartridge, when the .38-55 performs as well or better and the .375 Win is superior in all respects.

So far, it sounds like it’s a combination of:

- vagaries, inconsistencies, and incompetence in DNR regulations related to using straight wall cartridges for hunting rifles;

- the appeal of the cartridge as a medium bore AR-15 round, which is itself impressive as it would be one of the first times since the .38-55 when a medium bore round was successful in the US market;

- Winchester finally got it right, and unlike the .375 Win introduction, actually had ample ammo available when rifles became available; and

- the “new and improved” factor where new is supposed to be “better”.

Why was the .350 Legend introduced originally? Because it’s a .35 caliber round that works in the most popular rifle out there. You can buy a $300 upper, have it shipped to your home and you’re good to go assuming you already own a lower.

There are 100+ rounds out there that are more powerful. So what? At this point in time you could ask unless you’re coming up with something more powerful than 50 BMG why bother with any new cartridge?

I miss the .357 Max. I had a Ruger and Contender in it. Myself, I'd much rather have a straight wall rimmed cartridge than any similar round that headspaces off the case mouth.

I know the X frame is likely being sold as a companion for your existing rifle. Still carrying an X frame revolver along with your rifle platform of choice doesn't seem too appealing to someone my age.

An N frame/Blackhawk and a carbine is plenty for me.

Simple marketing ploy that may sell a few more of the mega frame revolvers.

The big thing hand loaders need to understand is ammo manufactures don’t give 2 hoots about hand loaders. They are in the business to sell ammo. The 350 was designed to work in the AR platform first and foremost. It utilizes unnecked 223/556 brass which they all make by the zillions. It utilizes 9mm bullets which they make by the zillions. It is a new caliber for specific use in the Midwest states with a good crossover for home defense. Any rifle, semi auto, bolt, lever, single shot that can function with 223/556 will work just fine with the 350.
Now, since it’s inception the 350 has proven to be all that was promised. It’s easy to shoot, it’s greatly effective on deer, and even now it’s relatively cheap to shoot and medium game loads are @25$ per box of 20.
When it first came out I was buying 200 rd cases for 175$.

Older calibers like the 38-55 and 357 Max were abandoned by almost every manufacturer and suppliers years ago. If you can find factory ammo it’s ridiculously expensive. Compared to the 350 why would I ever consider something that is essentially dead. There is nothing wrong with them but if I can’t reasonably buy the gun and have to hand load all of my ammo what’s the point.

I built my first AR in 350 for 300$. That was a premium barrel and 3 mags. Since everything is built around a standard 556 these were the only parts needed. For that I had a solid 200 yard deer gun that I could and now again walk into any establishment in my are that sells ammo and walk out with either plinking loads or proven deer killing loads.

I use one to hunt deer in Ohio. If I still hunted in WVA I would have no qualms about using it there as well. I’ve had 3 one shot kills on big Ohio deer and have knocked the stuffing out of many yotes.
Time marches on and someone built a better mouse trap.

reddog81 said:

Why was the .350 Legend introduced originally? Because it’s a .35 caliber round that works in the most popular rifle out there. You can buy a $300 upper, have it shipped to your home and you’re good to go assuming you already own a lower.

There are 100+ rounds out there that are more powerful. So what? At this point in time you could ask unless you’re coming up with something more powerful than 50 BMG why bother with any new cartridge?

Click to expand...

In the big picture it probably helps legitimize the AR-15 as a hunting rifle, although some states limit semi autos to no more than 3 rounds in the gun.

But my argument isn’t that every new round has to be more powerful, it’s just that the .350 Legend isn’t, and Winchester had a cartridge that filed the same niche in traditional lever action rifles, but did nothing to reheat it as an option, even though it still produces .38-55 Model 94s.

I have been considering a rifle in 350 Legend for a while now. Easily enough for our Coastal Blacktails. And if you handload, it can be loaded with a relatively light charge of pistol powder (Hodgdon gives a load with Titegroup) and 9mm FMJ to make a nice plinker in the off season. I do wish it was a true straight wall though.

I guess I don't really appreciate the LOGIC (or, significant lack thereof?) behind these types of regulations... What are they designed to provide? Who (or WHAT?) are they designed to "protect"? Where I can see some reason behind setting MINIMUM levels of lethality for game animals, what does the length of the case have to do with the firearms and ammo to be "allowed" (or, the PRICE OF TEA IN CHINA!)...?

Cheers!

350 was to cater to AR crowd and along the way new deer hunters could pick up a entry level bolt gun for about 50% of cost of legal lever gun. It’s popular cause low recoil.
I guess they need handgun to go with rifle in case they come under attack.
The restrictions in states like Ohio are flat out stupid. I can see that biggest part of state is flat that HV rifles would be a problem. Some muzzle loaders are higher velocity that a 30/30. I guess they have to have easy to understand laws so the DNR officers can understand them.

I think the idea behind allowing straight walled cartridges has to do with population density and the idea that a .270 would puncture a house miles away while a .44 magnum round would lose steam quickly. When I grew up in Illinois the whole state was shotgun only, supposedly for the same reason.

I’m intrigued by the .350 Legend. I wonder if the brass can be made to work in my Winchester 1907 .351?