223 remington fmj general purpose ammo

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agent00

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In the meantime I have purchased for remington 7615 pump action rilfe and I really like it so far. It is nice rifle I had lots of fun with at the range already.

As mentioned in my 223 remington ammo thread my main self defense rifle was and still is my 12 gauge baikal shotgun and the 7615 is more a target/fun shooting rifle but in an case of emergency it should also serve as a home defense rifle.

My first plan was to get some decent jhp or jsp round but due the ammo shortages and the high prices at the moment I am forced to look at a budget solution aka fmj rounds.

Do you guys now if all 223 rem fmj bullets use the bullets than the military 5.56 nato rounds. Can I asume that civilian 55 grain fmj round loaded in 223 rem would act similiar in a soft target than the old m193 round? I am aware of the difference in barrel lengh between the m16 with had .20 inch barrel and my rem 7615 which has just a .16 inch barrel but is it save to asume that the difference in barrel lengh would not matter that much in a short range hd scenario?

If not all civilian fmj rounds act the same are there one that use similar bullets than the m193 or ar all civilian fmj rounds build in toughter way than the good old m193?

I would be pleased hearing a few opinions on that regard

Thanks for the help in advance

Greetings from Austria
 
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Your typical 55gr FMJ commercial round is basically the M193 for all intents and purposes. That's not much of an endorsement in it's favor. If your objective is to poke 22 sized holes in things at distances up to 600 meters it should be fine.

Your 16" barrel is shorter than the M16 by 4" but it's still longer than the M4, which is 14". You lose maybe 300fps.
 
Just get 55 grain .223 or 5.56. No one will feel better after getting shot with one.
 
Paul in Nevada said:
Your typical 55gr FMJ commercial round is basically the M193 for all intents and purposes. That's not much of an endorsement in it's favor. If your objective is to poke 22 sized holes in things at distances up to 600 meters it should be fine.

Your 16" barrel is shorter than the M16 by 4" but it's still longer than the M4, which is 14". You lose maybe 300fps.
Click to expand...

55 grain FMJ (M193) has the reputation for tumbling after traveling through about 8 inches of tissue, making serious wounds on big and medium-sized game out to 200 yards or so.
Many years ago I shot a skinny wild dog through the rib cage trotting broadside to me at around 100 yards with a military issue 5.56 mm M193 round. Dog went about 10 yards and dropped. Had an exit wound through the shin on the off side about the size of a half-dollar.
Only one example, but I know of others who have had similar experiences.
Not sure it would have worked as well on something with less body mass like a groundhog, coyote, or armadillo.
 
smoothshooter said:
55 grain FMJ (M193) has the reputation for tumbling after traveling through about 8 inches of tissue, making serious wounds on big and medium-sized game out to 200 yards or so.
Many years ago I shot a skinny wild dog through the rib cage trotting broadside to me at around 100 yards with a military issue 5.56 mm M193 round. Dog went about 10 yards and dropped. Had an exit wound through the shin on the off side about the size of a half-dollar.
Only one example, but I know of others who have had similar experiences.
Not sure it would have worked as well on something with less body mass like a groundhog, coyote, or armadillo.
Click to expand...

If you're a hunter interested in the humane killing of game, you won't shoot game with such ammo. There are suitable cartridges and ammos made for hunting game.
 
There's a lot of myth about .223/5.56 mm bullets and what they do. Generally, spitzer non expanding type bullets swap ends/tumble when they hit tissue. The longer the bullet the more prone to do so. The M193 (and similar diameter) tend to come apart (reportedly at the cannelure) from the stresses caused by the directional change.

But, the fragmenting is velocity dependent (it should still happen within 100-150 meters with a 16 inch barrel) and it's best not to count on it. It doesn't happen if you're talking about interior walls in dwellings or something like a piece of lumber or door.

Besides the hollow/soft point bullet, the ballistic (nylon/plastic nose insert) tip 55 gr bullet will work well for your intended purpose.
 
Yes relying on fragmentation is quite tricky indeed. That's why I was asking. If it works properly it is devastating and suited rather well for ashort range sd scenarios. If not it might be still enough to stop a thread but over-penetration might be an issue. The walls in my apartment are made of solid concrete so it might stop 223 rem round but I would also not underestimate that little round.

In general, the question remains if the civilian 223 rem55-grain rounds are build the same way as the old 5.56mm m193 or not. If they are the same then they should act like the military round.

But what if the civilian fmj rounds have a more solid full metal jacket? Wouldn't the stronger jacket prevent the round from fragmentation after tumbling?

That's the question that remains.

I have mailed my gun store already to ask if some of the 5.56mm rounds mentioned above would be available or not. Did not get an answer yet.

If they are available I will go for the Winchester m193 rounds. Real m193 would be the best bet until some real expanding bullets become available again.
 
I highly doubt that there's any significant difference between jacket thickness between fmj bullet brands unless they've been made to some task related different specification.

I've used fmj bullets from Hornady, Winchester, Federal and whoever else may have made bullets for the US DOD ammo plants. They all showed the fragmentation in pretty much the same manner (can't say exactly the same since I wasn't using ballistic gelatin and high speed cameras to get real time images). FWIW, I did run into one specific bullet that did demonstrate slightly better penetration prior to fragmentation, but that was a Barnes RRLP (reduced ricochet, limited penetration) bullet intended for use on steel reactive targets for CQB training. I'm assuming the jacket was pretty much standard thickness, the core was atomized copper in some matrix instead of lead. (Gotta be green!) The fragmentation appears to be pretty much related to the cross sectional area of the the 5.56 mm bullet rather than jacket thickness. I've no idea if M855 ammo built differently to improve penetration fragments, never tried any.

Finally, since 5.56x45 mm ammo has a NATO STANAG standard that goes into exhaustive detail, it's extremely doubtful that any bullet producer-outside of specialized designs as noted earlier-is going to bother changing their materials/methods of fabricating fmj bullets in any current/former military caliber or ammunition specification (M193 vs M855).
 
M193 bullets DO NOT "Tumble" in the sense that they go end over end. Instead they yaw during penetration of tissue and fragment into something like shrapnel, provided the impact velocity is great enough. Here is a good discussion of this fragmentation phenomenon. It appears that at an impact velocity below about 2500 ft/sec, fragmentation is minimal to none.
http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Ballistic_Gel_Experiments/BTAmmoLabsTest1/Test1.html
 
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I'm going to concede that the mechanics of the fragmentation of .223/5.56x45 mm fmj bullets aren't really important to the discussion at hand. It happens within a given velocity envelope, the details don't really matter. I might have chosen a better term than tumble/swap ends. Maybe "destabilize". Gotta remember that.

I will note that did some testing what bullets did in a simulated interior wall with a cardboard target several feet behind it to see what the bullets were doing when they exited. I got a surprise. As expected, M193 and various soft/hollow points sailed straight through intact. The RRLP went through intact but the bullet impact on the target seemed to show it going sideways. Since it doesn't have a lead core, the RRLP is much longer that most other .223 bullets. If that's yaw, it's a very extreme example.
 
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Thanks a lot for the link. It was a really interesting read. At the end this technical details are not important for practical reasons but I am not only a practical target shooter but also weapon tech and history nerd so I am always happy to learn some new details in that regard. Thanks for informing me.
 
If I had a 223 ball for my SD use, and had the time, I would try for a
hip shot to stop the BG, if they did not have a weapon.
I would rather have a lead tip or HP design, that might mushroom and not
over penetrate.

Rifles are a bit much for SD with homes and other people in the area.
I like your idea of the shotgun, much better, for their protection, from harm.

If you pull a shotgun, I just hope the BG, turns around and runs away.
 
rockquarry said:
If you're a hunter interested in the humane killing of game, you won't shoot game with such ammo. There are suitable cartridges and ammos made for hunting game.
Click to expand...

The FMJ was not favorite load, but it was a pretty humane kill, and it was all I had on me at the time.
 
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