Secret Service .38 Special Ammo

Papa Lee

Papa Lee

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A number of years ago, I acquired the ammunition stockpile from the widow of a retired Secret Service Agent. These Winchester Western Caliber 38 Special 110 GR. Jacketed Hollow points were included.

As noted on the back of the box, maximum average pressure is 15% higher than industry + P Standard.

I was wondering if any forum members (LEO or others) have had first hand experience with this load and any other information about it. Including but not limited to - what standard issue sidearm these were used in at the time?

(I have read Mike Woods excellent Revolverguy.com article about this ammo.)
 

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To give you some idea... that's less pressure than original Super Vel 110 gr. ammo, considerably less than the hottest factory ammo of pre+P days, the Norma 110 gr., and about the same as the hottest Remington factory offering (can't remember whether it was 110 or 125 gr.). This was around 1970-'71. Still, yours is comparatively pretty warm ammo, but used in moderation it should be fine in any quality steel-framed .38 in sound condition.

I'm not an expert and I've never heard of Mike Woods. If he's a bonafide expert, listen to his advice.
 
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I had a lot of dealings with the USSS from 86 to 2000. They used my range for Quals and night fire Quals. They used blued model 19 Smiths for many a moon until going to Model 229's in 357 Sig.

Thy 38 Special rounds were all head stamped +P+. They also fired that round in Model 60 Smith's as that was the only backup revolver allowed to be carried. Until the Sig 230 was allowed when they went to semi-autos.
 
+P+ Treasury Load. Hard on the revolver, and designed to mimic a low end .357 Magnum without having to say anything to the public about use of "magnums." Back then, the nut jobs (they have always been with us in one form or another) were loud and stupid about "the man" using magnum loads. Inhuman, torture, whatever. Always a big load of BS. Anyway, if you want to know what shooting one is like, get the Winchester White Box .357 Magnum 110 grain load. Duplicates the ballistics, but in a magnum case instead of a 38 Special case. The USSS wanted a load that would not over-penetrate, and they were listening to the LEAA computer model about low bullet weight, high velocity being the answer. Obviously, it was proven later that it wasn't the answer. The world moved on and those loads are more of a collector's item and curiosity now.
 
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I have a box of those and have shot some through a K frame 38 and also a J frame 640. They are the ammo that stays in the 640. Since I have never shot anyone with them, I have no idea how well they might work, or not.
 
Shot a fair amount of it back in the day through the issued 2 1/2" Model 19 and 2 1/2" Model 66. As has been stated above, this was a work around to avoid public wailing about Treasury Department agents carrying "magnum" ammunition. Recoil wasn't bad with the Model 19 and 66, but it was a bit snappy with the Model 36 or 60 backup revolvers. With the move to semi-autos, issuance of this particular round went the way of the Dodo bird.

I have several boxes that are just momentos of earlier LEO days.
 
raljr1 said:
I have four boxes of the Super Vel 110 gr 38 ammo...wonder how that would feel out of our 640?

Robert
Click to expand...

Before the +P designation, if the gun and ammo both said ".38 Special" no one questioned suitability of ammo for a particular gun. A lot of Super Vel .38 Special was fired in J-frame revolvers.
 
I agree with the Shooting times data using w231 & Unique for a +P loading.

In my 686 6" with the 38 case the Unique will get 1132fps.

On 2/11/2011, the 110 gr Sierra with a full load of Unique reached 1305fps.

My J frame 125 JHP +P load can do 905fps but 888fps is more accurate
while that 38 case loading in my 686 will do 1025fps and with the heavier frame
a full load of Unique will do 1210fps with a 38 case, loading.

Some revolvers do well with "Hot loads" while some of my maximum loads need
to be reduced a little to get top accuracy, for target or pest control.
 
Back in the 80's I fired quite a few rounds from my S&W model 66. It didn't hurt the revolver. Despite claims by the FBI that it was an excellent defense round (based on White Laboratories testing) it didn't perform well under actual conditions when used for self defense in the field. Due to political climate, it was a baby step forward, finally ending with the .357 mag. 125 gr. JHP being accepted. This was not long before federal agencies switching to .40 S&W cal. semi-auto pistols.
 
38SPL HV said:
This was the “Treasury Round”

The 38 Spl +P 158 gr LHP aka “FBI Load” was/is superior…
Click to expand...

I own a S&W M&P shipped before they called them the M10 and a Chief's Special that gets nothing but the FBI load when carried. That load was and is made for those revolvers and they still shoot the best IMO.

The classic 158gr LSWC HP round will never be equaled for those older revolvers. (again IMO of course)
 
Nevada Ed said:
Well I don't think I would like to stand in front of a 4" 38 special
and say, "Make my day", with a 110gr. "Treasery load".

"Thank you, thank you, very much."
Click to expand...
True, but I wouldn't want to stand in front of a .22 short pistol and dare to be shot. BTW, back in the day, I never considered the Department of the Treasury to be the lead agency in firearms/ ammo development.:)
 
BE Mike said:
...BTW, back in the day, I never considered the Department of the Treasury to be the lead agency in firearms/ ammo development.:)
Click to expand...

In the spirit of fun discussion rather than argument:

The "FBI Load" 158 grain SWCHP was developed by Winchester for --- St. Louis PD.

Circa 1970-72 by my quick check, Treasury agents had Super Vel .38 and .357 and trained at FLET-C.

IIRC Treasury also conducted the misguided 1970's "jello" tests, so we'll ignore that part. I'm blanking. What was the name given those tests?
 
This is a rare case of the manufacturer actually stating the pressure of their round. What was the tested pressure of Super-Vel or FBI? If we don't know, it's all speculation.
 
Paul in Nevada said:
This is a rare case of the manufacturer actually stating the pressure of their round. What was the tested pressure of Super-Vel or FBI? If we don't know, it's all speculation.
Click to expand...

I don't think there was any speculation involved. I'd have to look up the exact figures, but Super Vel was around 21,000, maybe a little less. Remington was around 23,000 or a bit more, Norma was the hottest at 27000 or so. Speer-DWM, I can't remember for sure; think it was between Remington and Norma. There may be one or two others. I can get out the article tomorrow and check if you need more information. These were all measured by Lee Jurras in the Super Vel plant about 1970 and published in HANDLOADER magazine. I'm pretty sure these were about the most accurate figures available at the time.
 
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If I remember right Massad Ayoob liked to carry an airweight model 38 nickel snub nose for a back up gun. He knew it wasn’t recommended to carry the treasury load in his gun, but he did, and said it stretched out the frame.
 
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