The cost of the guns is chump change compared to the ammo costs. Glock used to basically swap new guns for old ones at very little cost just to keep them in cop holsters. Even if a department pays $400 for a one-time purchase of a gun that is nothing compared to feeding it every quarter for 20 years.

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Rule of law, not a man.

That's really funny, if you think about it. The 10mm's "demise" came about partly because of the immediate popularity of the .40S&W, or at least by the LE group that thought so highly of the 10mm at the beginning. .40 hung around and then became passe' and 9mm was king again. Now 10mm is on the rise, I can only imagine .40 will make a comeback, too.

What goes around comes around, again and again. Much of it is advertising hype, to sell you on something else that's supposedly better and then to sell you something you don't have yet. I've been shooting 10mm since 1992 and have never thought less of it, and I've been shooting .40S&W since a few years after that, and it is my preferred EDC cartridge. I see the pair like I see .38Spl and .357 Magnum, which I've been shooting since the 1970's. Each has a niche and its own purpose.

Complete and utter nonsense.

I already told you, 9mm was improved to meet FBI Specifications whereas .40 S&W was designed to meet those specifications to begin with.

If you don't already know, the FBI specifications for small arms duty cartridges is that they penetrate a minimum of 12" and a maximum of 18" through 4 layers of heavy denim in Ballistics Gel which has been calibrated to simulate human muscle tissue.

These specifications were set by the FBI based on analysis of the Miami Dade County Shootout of 1986 in which two bank robbers got into a shootout with both local law enforcement as well as Federal Agents armed with .38 Special Revolvers and 9mm Pistols which failed to stop the bank robbers.
The .40 S&W cartridge was designed based on those specifications, ergo it already meets them exactly and any attempts to "improve" on the cartridge would be pointless as it would most likely result in it surpassing FBI Specifications, thus rendering it a liability.

Besides, there's already an improved .40 S&W, it's called 10mm Auto, which the .40 S&W is actually a smaller, deliberately less powerful version of because full-power 10mm Auto exceeded FBI Specifications.

CASE CLOSED

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Shooting Comfort is bilateral.

I didn't feel undergunned with .38 spl, various HP bullet types. I don't feel undergunned with 9mm (since 1994), 124 gr Fed HST currently. I own a few .45's, .40's gone in caliber "simplification" not animus. Folks should utilize what feels "comforting." Joe

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Behavior Creates Destiny

And any improvements to 9mm have also been applied to 40S&W. Around and around we go.

I've got a lot of Winchester Ranger T ammo in 9mm and 40. Got one box of Gold Dots in both calibers too. I've been under the impression that both types of ammo are kinda advanced in the art of putting holes in people.

Don't want to ever get shot by either, but If I had to make a choice...I'd pick the 9mm.

I've heard a lot of people say the 9mm has been improved, but if the same ammo is available in 40, I don't see how it could be better.

Yep! And even MORE so out of a lever action with, say, an 18.5" barrel and a 9-shot capacity...!

Cheers!

P.S. Not extremely comfortable (or, holsterable?) for concealed carry, though...

Look at all the bandwith we could've saved with a two-post thread.

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Because of the metric system?

And only 32 years after the 40 was introduced.

Actually, the .40 S&W was designed to exploit the law enforcement market by fitting into a firearm frame size more people felt comfortable with.

I used to talk with an FBI agent who was involved in the development of the test protocol and the reasons behind it. Let's just say that pure reason and science isn't all that drove their standards.

I used to have an electronic copy of an FBI report that thoroughly debunked claims from an incident in PA where it was claimed that ammunition that met the FBI criteria had failed to adequately penetrate. [Imperative to protect the image & process, don't ya know.] Included autopsy x-rays clearly demonstrated that the actor used cover exceptionally well and all handgun hits were both peripheral and at an angle that couldn't strike immediate incapacitation zones. The conflict was resolved by 2 hits from .223/ 5.56 ammunition.

Handgun ammunition samples from the incident met FBI criteria. Samples of the .223/5.56 mm ammo that ended the fight didn't meet FBI criteria.

You mean the bad guys don't just stand there out of cover and concealment with handy indicators of their vitals on their clothes to help you aim? That's damned inconsiderate of them.

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Release the Kraken

I investigated an officer involved shooting...bad guy hit with 9mm, .40 S&W, and 5.56 who naturally survived. All decent torso hits, but he had the luck of the Devil.

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No good deed goes unpunished.

With all the improvements with making SD bullets for all the Pistols and revolvers that people use in todays times,
along with the new powders and testing done by the companies that make the ammo,
we are in good hands.

Grandma, can choose from a 380, up to a 10mm pistol, if she thinks she needs it
to protect her children.

The ammo is that good.

So what is all this yelling all about?

Yep but it's a royal PITA to reload...neck tension vs thin brass is the problem. Rod

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Vote the bums out!

Know what you mean. LEO I used to see at bowling years ago was the primary shooter in an OIS where a guy was driving a truck at him. I saw pictures of the holes in the truck and decided either 1) the guy had a alien personal shield device or 2) he was dodging bullets like Neo from The Matrix. I don't think the perp even had a shrapnel mark on him.

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Release the Kraken

Indeed. For many this ammo war stuff is like a loose tooth, they just cannot leave it alone.

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Release the Kraken

Most agencies adopted the 9MM for the same reason they adopted Glocks, They're cheap. Saves them money, that's it! A 357 Sig might be the best caliber for LEO use ever. A 40S&W and a 45ACP would be close seconds, a 9MM is last. Contrary to what sleepy Joe says, a 9 really isn't that great when compared to other options! A LEO, or anyone actually, should not draw their weapon unless things have gotten very serious in which case, they would need the most effective caliber available, that isn't a 9MM.

Most savvy, law-enforcement agencies were using hollow points in their revolvers in the late 1960s, but some stuck with round nose lead .38s because they didn’t really care or because of the horror stories of how cruel and inhumane it was to use hollow points. I remember how people frequently mentioned how it violated the Geneva convention. Semi auto’s were a different story and Colt 45’s, Walther P38s, Smith 39s, and Browning Hi Power’s wouldn’t feed most jacket hollowpoints. Gun manufacturers were slow to change back then, but it eventually happened and hollow points became the rage. Super Vel, Black Talon, Hydra Shok, Flying Ashtray, Golden Sabre and other new words were heard as HP ammo was constantly being improved. All the major ammo manufacturers continued to put research and development into new bullet designs and market them as the latest and greatest “must have” design. Many decades later I’m sure the 40 ammo is just fine now.

Shooting at people in moving cars or trucks with small arms is a low-hit possibility proposition.

The 9mm cartridges are getting more improvements because that is the money maker caliber today. Buyers seem to flock to the new stuff.

It is selling into the market that is currently growing at a faster pace than others.

"Energy" has no bearing on terminal performance of the bullet.

Momentum is what gets the bullet to the target- bullet construction and design determine terminal performance.

Caliber has little to do with terminal performance or how lethal the bullet is.

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be safe
Ruggy

Remember Dad getting all the latest and greatest "Law Enforcement Only" ammo ...... mostly carried in his 30 year old .357 Colt/King's 6" New Service!

I'm not a believer in the "one shot stop"; it can happen but don't count on it ....... a double or triple tap of any of the above is, IMHO, superior to one round of any of them. So IMHO the fastest double/triple tap wins!

So 18+1 in my Beretta Centurion or 15+1 in the Compact are my choices.

That said I'm still really fond of my 34 year old .45 W. German Sig 220!

In my quiet "Burb of the Burgh" a 3913 with a spare mag or two has been GTG for the last 30 years!

The 9mm bullet is about 355 thousands of an inch in diameter. If you think a bullet that is 45 thousands of an inch bigger, .355 vs .400 is going to knock someone down and stomp them compared to the 45 thousands smaller bullet.... then I doubt there's much anyone can tell you

Don't forget its 115/124 gr vs 180...... so 50-60% more mass..... IIRC; mass x velocity = the "Force/energy" an object applies to another object it come in contact with. So not just "thousands of an inch" issue.

Edit: Ballistics by the Inch...... all out of a 4" barrel;
9mm 300-450 f-lbs of energy
.40 S&W 360-540 f-lbs of energy
10mm 420-760 f-lbs of energy
.357 sig 480-600 f-lbs
.357 magnum 400-620 f-lbs [cylinder gap ?]
.

Yeh, can’t get button hooks any more.

Yep that big old 40 that is barely 3/64" bigger in diameter has more energy than the puny nine, if velocity is equal. More force/energy, more "knock down power", sure. I wonder how many love the big old .40 and have a scale that has the very fine lines of 1/64ths of an inch can actually see how much 3/64ths is without reading glasses or a magnifying glass Does the .40 actually achieve the same velocity with 180 gr bullets as the nine with 124 gr +P ammo. Not quite

LOL I guess the argument is different when you use fractions vs thousands of an inch!

What about +P 9mm vs 10mm...... same bullets different velocity

So a .380 [9x17] and 9mm [9x19] have the same stopping power?

Just add 1/10 of an inch ( that's 100 thousands [aka, 1+ two 0s] for those of you in Rio Linda) and you've got a .50 cal. ; that will blow your arm clean off !!!!!!!




See my post, #78, for my true feelings on this matter!!!

From my reloading manuals it looks like you have to drop bullet weight down to 135 grs in the 40 to get close to the velocity that the 9 achieves with 125 grs. That's std pressure 9, not +P. So the big bore 40 at 3/64ths larger dia and 10 grs heavier isn't much of a big bore. When you factor in +P 9s I guess the highest praise you can give to the 40 is that it's almost as good as the 9mm That should be reason enough to keep it around for awhile before it eventuality goes the way of other 40 caliber ctgs.

I don't care about the math. The 40 has been a reliable performer in police shootings since it's inception and with any commonly available bullets; 9mm, not so much.

Interesting post. Lots of good input.

I was late climbing on the .40 S&W wagon. Purchased my first in about 2001, a Kahr P40 for a very compact lightweight piece. Worked very well, but 16.1 oz. pistols and 180-grain slugs make for some harsh range sessions.

In 2018 I found a Certified Pre-Owned Sig P229, LE trade-in factory refurbished to as new condition, in the box with 3 mags and one-year Sig warranty, all for a stupid low price that I would not pass up (about 1/3 of MSRP). The added size and weight make it very comfortable to shoot, and it is both very accurate and very reliable. I actually shopped for and purchased a factory 10-round mag for the possibility of finding myself in one of those states with such restrictions.

Still had plenty of .40 ammo, brass, reloading dies, and bullet mold so I'm good to go for the long haul. Interesting possibility in the factory .357 Sig barrel as a drop-in, no other changes needed (even uses the same mags).

With millions of .40 pistols in circulation, especially the many LEO trade-ins available, I doubt that the .40 will become extinct.

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Life of the party until 8:00PM

Lobo..... similar boat

Came across a used but anib 229 with both .40 and .357Sig barrels and 4 mags in 2011/12 [IIRC<$500 OTD]; added a couple more mags. It's my only .40 or .357sig.
After Sandyhook the only ammo on the shelf at a local Dunhams was .40 and .357Sig..... they never marked it up ..... so I bought a 50rd box or two a week until it too dried up... have a nice TEOTWAWKI stash.

Edit to add ...... one round of 12 gauge 00 buck is said, by many, to be the best one shot man stopper......... 9 IIRC .33-.36" pellets all hitting at once!

No one factor makes any round "good" or "the best"..... the .40 works so will the 9mm and .380 and even the .32acp.

To the OP I think the .40 will be around for a long time..... but may fade over time like the once popular 44/40 and .45 long colt..... or the .41 mag; touted when introduced as the future of Police ammo.

The .45acp and 9mm both are still going strong after 100 years.

Only time will tell! Till then set your Phaser on stun?

Lets stick to the topic, ammo not the guns.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

the main advantage of 9MM is simply that it is the cheapest centerfire cartridge you can find to shoot.
bullet advancement arguments are null and void as the vast majority of ammo in the wild is FMJ.
The raw volume of production behind the 9 is why it's nerfing all else.

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it just needs more voltage

Great fun these caliber wars huh My real take on the 9 vs the 40 is that when good loads from both are combined with good shot placement there's not a nickel's worth of difference in the real world of effectiveness for self defense between the two. The 9mm is the world standard for handguns and sub machine guns,
tons of FMJ ammo is available for reasonable prices making it the best bang for the buck. It is probably more popular today than ever. It will continue to thrive and the 40 will survive but will gradually just fade into the background.

Bratwurst tastes better than hotdogs.

Sig 226s and 229s chambered in 40 can be converted to 9mm with just barrel, recoil spring, and magazine changes. The slides aren't even marked with the chambering. Go look. Only 1 slide and only 1 extractor. I have a P226 with a 40 barrel, and a P229 DA/SA 40, and another 40 DAK. And a spare 226 9mm barrel, and a 229 barrel in .357 SIG.

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NRA RSO

In caliber wars I go with the 45 ACP.

Why .45ACP?
Because I See Inmates Everyday Walking Around with 9mm Holes in them...

This is not accurate. A 40/357 to 9mm conversion requires either a slide change and a factory barrel or a conversion barrel from BarSto or EFK.


Info - Barrel Conversion Tables | SIG Talk

The real lesson from those big encounters wasn't that they needed 9mm, .40, 10mm or .45. In some fights carbines and rifles were needed. You can waffle back and forth on handgun calibers forever.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

It's a merry-go-round. Everyone has 9mm's now with super high tech bullets that defy the laws of physics. Someone will get into a shoot out and pump 10 rounds into the bad guy who goes on to kill everyone before he bleeds to death. There will be lots of hand wringing and money thrown at junk science to justify a bigger, harder hitting handgun. Some 110 pound book keeper won't be able to qualify at the academy and more money will be spent to figure out that big calibers have more recoil than small calibers and there will be an epiphany that everyone should be carrying a smaller caliber. This has been going on for the history of handguns for defensive uses in the US. Don't get rid of your 40's or 45's or 10mm's. Just stand still and the merry-go-round will turn and they will come back into style just like bell bottoms. (Well, maybe not bell bottoms!)

The definitive answer to the question .40 vs 9mm is 10mm!

Glad I could help

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USS Brewton FF1086
SWCA#3597

Already lived through that cycle in the '90s, except it was three 9mm shootings in a row with poor results. Winchester Silvertip 115 grain +P and Federal 147 grain Hydrashock.

Carry whatever gun/ammo combo that you feel confident with and makes you happy. There’s not enough of a imeaningful difference between 90% of handgun ammo to worry about. Just put what you’re carrying where it counts.

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213th FBINA

We have more than a few examples of .40 and 9mm as well as other pistol calibers and like all of them. They each have their strengths. In the event of worry about the effectiveness of any handgun I stick to this one.



The issue weapon of Sandmen and works excellently on runners trying to avoid carousel.

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KM
S&WCA 3110 S&WHF 625

sounds like when the military went from 7.62 to 5.56:
more ammo carried
more ammo in mag
less expensive
less recoil
just as deadly with proper training, etc

Yes they did, after S&W gave them all new magazines since VSP had decided they were the cause of problems (couldn't possibly be the training). S&W offered us the reject mags at $5 each. We took substantial numbers of them and only found two to be problems.

The S&W sales rep for the area told us while we were shopping for a semi service pistol to avoid the frame mounted decocker versions. FWIW, he stated that the FBI told S&W that if they wanted the contract, they'd find a way to have a Sig-Sauer like decocking lever. We went with the base 1006 and they gave outstanding service 1992-2006. We abandoned them only because we couldn't get ammo in the quantities we needed.

I had multiple friends/acquaintances at the FBI site at Quantico. There was much politics involved in the 10 mm thing. Judging from some memo copies I got, I expect everything related to firearm/caliber issues was political, but budget did play a part in the return to the 9 mm.

OTOH, I belonged to a LE firearms instructor chat board. There were several agencies that jumped on the .40 bandwagon that later regretted it. Qual scores dropped, in some cases markedly, and, of course, ammo costs went up, further boosted by mandated extra training for some. For whatever reason, I found I shot the 9 mm version of the service pistol that replaced our 1006s much better than I did the .40 version. I didn't shoot the .40 version anywhere near as well as I did the 1006, even with full power ammo.

And now that they are going to the 6.8 X 51 mm:

Less ammo carried
Less ammo in mag
More expensive
More recoil
Heavier gun*
But better at longer ranges. Question is will we need that capability?

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220