The 10mm Fraud

So I'm perusing the ballistics data for factory 10mm "performance" loads over on Lucky Gunner - tested from a Glock 4.6" barrel and was struck by how low is the velocity of most loads. So I do the math. Turns out, several of the "performance" loads barely crack 400 foot-pounds of energy! Few rise above 500 fpe., and only one broke 550 fpe! Mind you this is for expensive ammo.
So then I compared the so-called performance 10mm to .40S&W actual shooting data. I must also point out the .40 was shot from a Glock 27 with 3.4" barrel, not a comparable barrel. Most of the 165 grain loads exceeded 400 fpe, and most of the 180 gr. loads were just barely under 400 fpe - from a barrel 1.3" shorter than the 10mm loads!

Being a lifelong reloader and "new ammo loader" I know how easy it is to load both .40S&W and 10mm to better numbers without even pushing the envelope - yet the companies who promote their super-special loads at premium prices can't seem to manage better? Why should they, how many people being ripped off for ammo labeled 10mm have any way to check, and those who do and report on forums such as this one are only "preaching to the choir" as they used to say.

Finally, I do some comparison checking of 10mm fraud loads against the old standby .45 ACP. Lucky Gunner tested .45 performance loads from a 3.6" barrel Kahr CW45 - 1.4" shorter than the 1911, and clearly biased toward more concealable pistols. As expected, .45 185 gr. loads are just a step behind the 10mm Fraud loads, and that's from a shorter barrel and not even +P! Again, from a handloader's perspective, the .45 auto can be easily loaded to 500 fpe with little added pressure - that's not even a full .45 Super power load. Matter of fact, Underwood lists a 185 gr. JHP+P that comes very close to 600 fpe! (And don't even get me started on the .460 Rowland!)

Of course if we start comparing Underwood to Underwood, the 10mm makes a proper showing, but that's not the brands whose names so often pop up on forums such as this one being considered by consumers who should be getting the performance they're paying for.

Let me reiterate the ballistics testing used a full-size barrel for the 10mm, and compact - even sub-compact barrel lengths for the .40S&W and .45ACP.

I've often wondered why commercial 10mm is so underpowered from what it should be. If I wanted that performance, I'd be shooting a .40 S&W, which is barely above 9mm, to be honest. Serouusly, most 9 and most 40 are in the same power range.

I thought 10mm...

...was supposed to be comparable to something like a .357. But from the data you present it seems that the only thing you get with commercial ammo between 9, .40 and 10mm are bigger bullets.

Just a thought. Maybe ammo makers are now turning out ammo that is designed not to hurt people to prevent lawsuits.

I’ve got one thing to say. If you want .41 Magnum power, don’t let yourself be fooled into thinking you really will be getting it with a 10mm pistol. More rounds, yes. The same power, no.

The original purpose of the 10mm pistol (200-grs. at 1200 FPS) was to provide .45 power at extended ranges. The old shooters used to say you could gauge it by how effectively it knocked down pepperpoppers (or something like that) beyond 50-75 yards, where, in their view, the .45 started to run out of steam. No one seems to remember that nowadays.

My understanding is the 10mm was NEVER intended to compare/compete with the 41 magnum, but rather the 357 mag.

Similar power but from a conventional format semi-auto. Faster to reload, slimmer profile to concealed carry.

What is beyond debate is that mass produced and marketed 10, and 40, are very watered down from what they should be.

The original Norma 10mm commercial load was pretty hot stuff. The current loads are very modest by comparison.

10mm Auto, in full power form, falls well short of 41 Magnum ballistics, but easily matches and can slightly exceed those of the 357 Magnum. But, that is in full power form, not the reduced loads that most ammo manufacturers offer these days. If you want true 10mm Auto ballistics, you pretty much have to buy boutique ammo or reload your own.

Agree. Current 10mm commercial offerings are but a shadow of what they could be or even what they originally were.
You need to load your own.

The 10mm fraud began with the original loads from Norma. While they advertised a 200 grain bullet at 1200 fps out of real guns that ammo typically produced about 1000 fps. See YouTube links at the end of this post. Factory 10mm ammo was never as hot as fans of the cartridge want to believe it was. Ammo makers have been making optimistic performance claims as long as there have been ammo makers. And 40 years ago there were a lot fewer people with chronographs to check up on them.

The SAAMI specs for 10mm call for a cartridge that has 7% more pressure than 40 in a case .1 inch longer. That does not add up to the kind of power increase most people want and expect out of a 10mm handgun. I suspect what happened is the 200 grain bullet at 1200 fps number was based on much hotter ammo produced before there was a SAAMI spec. I saw that happen on a few wildcat rifle cartridges that were given SAAMI specs in the 80s too. The SAAMI spec ammo was typically quite a bit less powerful than ammo produced by magazine writers with no way to measure pressure.

While the current SAAMI spec is disappointing it actually made sense at the time. The 10mm was meant to be a police service and self defense round, not the hunting and grizzly bear stopper it is viewed as today. A lot of the first 10mm guns were hastily converted 45s like the Springfield Omega I had that broke twice when shooting what people today would consider "real" 10mm ammo.

There really needs to be a spec for 10mm +P or even 10mm Super. There are people that tell me boutique ammo companies and reloaders can produce ammo that actually produces the kind of numbers Norma printed on their boxes without exceeding the SAAMI specs with a magic type of powder but there is no such thing as magic. They get those numbers by exceeding the SAAMI pressure limits. The ammo may be safe and reliable in their gun but will often malfunction in guns designed for SAAMI ammo. Look at the numerous complaints about the new 10mm M&P and other guns not being able to handle Underwood or BuffaloBore ammo. Guns designed for SAAMI spec ammo may or may not work with ammo loaded hotter. Gun makers need to design their guns around a spec. They are going to use SAAMI as the source for that spec. They need a number, not a vague description of what "real" 10mm performance is.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMtg1Q6vP3k&list=PLNw5las6Yz2hN2bw58cNhxfaZhJzvEi_h&index=2"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMtg1Q6vP3k&list=PLNw5las6Yz2hN2bw58cNhxfaZhJzvEi_h&index=2[/ame]

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHBM1cZOo_Y&list=PLNw5las6Yz2hN2bw58cNhxfaZhJzvEi_h&index=5&t=195s"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHBM1cZOo_Y&list=PLNw5las6Yz2hN2bw58cNhxfaZhJzvEi_h&index=5&t=195s[/ame]

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-e3BTkzr_M&list=PLNw5las6Yz2hN2bw58cNhxfaZhJzvEi_h&index=3&t=1243s"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-e3BTkzr_M&list=PLNw5las6Yz2hN2bw58cNhxfaZhJzvEi_h&index=3&t=1243s[/ame]

I have two 10mm pistols, a Gen 3 GLOCK 20 and GLOCK 29. Both are older large frame models before the whole "SF" craze hit the GLOCK market. I picked them up for cheap when 10mm was not popular. Full power Underwood is good stuff, but yes, commercial loads are anemic to say the least. In the end, 10mm marketing is folks selling the sizzle and not the steak.

There are still a lot of 10mm pistols out there lacking full chamber support, including many 1911-types, and early Glocks. While SAAMI standard is 37.5k lbs., a number of commercial loaders have chosen to limit their offerings to 30k in deference to those pistols lacking full support. Some cases in some pistols can experience a rupture ahead of the case web, resulting in high-pressure gas escaping into the mag well, usually damaging the magazine and the grips, at least. The industry as a whole, recognizing this, has made advances in design and construction to address the issue. Kimber 1911s and newer Glocks, for example, feature barrels which better support the case head down to the web. Noted gunwriter Brian Pearce has followed this and spoken of it, e.g. Handloader 314.

robertrwalsh said:

The original Norma 10mm commercial load was pretty hot stuff. The current loads are very modest by comparison.

Click to expand...

Can only relate personal (limited) experience. I and a shooting compadre 'bit the bullet' and ordered Bren Tens. After months of waiting we finally received notice that our pistols were ready to ship, but . . . "the magazines would be shipped at a later date."
Uhhhhh . . . nope, nope and NOPE - we canceled the order. (by that time the news was out about the magazine problems and availability)

So what to do with the split case of Norma 10mm we had already ordered and received ? We promptly ordered two (by then) available Colt Delta Elites. Other than trial sighting/function shots the only real test we ever put it to was for some bowling pin matches. (For those unfamiliar an array of pins was set on the front of a three foot wide table - to score, the pin had to come off the table completely and the fastest time to clean the table won).

I watched as guys tried everything from 38's and 9mm's to 41 and 44 mags. The smaller rounds would knock the pins over and several follow up shots and/or reloads were required to finally push the pins (now rolling around on the table) completely off. Conversely, many times the magnums would blow big chunks out of the pins as they passed through and more often than not required additional hits to take them completely off the table after knocking the split and splintered pins over..

As I said, relating personal experience here, the Norma 10's through the Colts knocked the pins straight back off the table from three to five feet when hit in the 'sweet spot' (a point just under the logo under the neck of the pin) and later examination showed most of the time the expanded hollow points were still in the pins stopping just short of punching totally through the plastic shell at the rear of the pin.

An isolated limited test to be sure but that's what I experienced (this was also pre-40S&W). Never did chronograph the Norma factory loads but they were indeed hot. And for that application I never saw anything work better while I was shooting those matches.

I have a 10MM,, (Colt, Gold Cup) ,, and I have a concept about the ammo.

The ammo is sort of like any other thing that you buy,,

Pasta at Olive Garden type restaurants is prepared with "LOTS OF SUGAR"
WHY,,?? because it brings customers back.

The same with 10MM ammo,,
If you buy Brand X 10MM ammo, and it punishes you to shoot it,,
then, you buy Brand Z 10MM ammo, and it is pleasant to shoot,,,

Guess which ammo you will pick up next time??

NOT Brand X,, you don't want to spend money to be punished.

After the first outing with my 10MM,,
I have never shot anything in my 10MM other than reloads,,
they are mild reloads, and are pleasant to shoot,,,

This 10mm resurgence started when people turned away from .40 to 9mm. What did you think the manufacturers were going to do with all the .40 bullets that no one was buying?!

They thought…we will just make 10mm and we can get rid of them that way.


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I guess I have to go back to the good ole stand by, Location, Location, Location. If you are looking for a defense load then I think anything over 700fps will work depending on distance. If you are looking for something in the hunting range then you will be paying more for you ammo. But seriously folks, has anyone ever complained about what they were shot with?

Every new cartridge that comes out is selling something better. Just look at the rifle market. Even the pistol market is always coming out the the new/better. Look at the 5.7 and the 30 Super Carry to name only a couple. Who is to blame, the gun makers and ammo manufacturers or the people that are gullible enough to always buy what they are selling?

The 10mm overlaps the 357 magnum ballistics. They both range from around 400 foot-pounds of energy and top out around 800 foot-pounds. Most ammo manufacturers list their ballistics from a six-inch test barrel. The 10mm has a slight advantage over the 357 magnum with heavier bullets and more momentum.

mscampbell2734 said:

My understanding is the 10mm was NEVER intended to compare/compete with the 41 magnum, but rather the 357 mag.

Similar power but from a conventional format semi-auto. Faster to reload, slimmer profile to concealed carry.

Click to expand...

Hey wait a minute, the .357 SiG was supposed to be the .357 Mag auto. (In reality it was comparable to the Super .38 Colt.)

I had my chronograph at a buddies a couple weeks ago checking some handloads for 10mm, 357 mag, and 45 ACP.

He brought out a box of 10mm factory ammo, I forget the brand? Pretty light bullet, 125 grain maybe? Anyways the box said IIRC, like 1,550 FPS? Somewhere in there?

They were like barely over 1,200 FPS. My 155 grain XTP's with power pistol were 150 FPS faster.

He was shooting them in a S&W with 4.5 in barrel I believe?

The claimed velocity wasn't even close to the real velocity. In this gun anyways.

I never bought the 10mm or 40 S&W Kool-Aid.

I always was a big fan of the 45 ACP autoloader and the 357 Magnum revolver.