I carry an older Model 36 that can't or at least isn't recommend to use +P in and I've done a decent bit of testing and research. From my understanding of Lucky Gunner tests on ballistics gel and Paul Harrell tests on his famous meat targets the consensus seems to be that most stuff doesn't reliably expand with standard pressure. From both sources, one of the very few that seemed to was Hornady FTX 110 grain JHP which is what I use currently. The only other from Lucky Gunner that did is Federal Micro HST which I cannot find anywhere.

Paul seemed to indicate for penetration the FTX may be lacking on bigger targets, this he seemed to suggest 158 grain semi wadcutter or wadcutter if you are limited to standard pressure. While not something that keeps me up at night, I do want to make sure the ammo I'm carrying is capable of, God forbid, I had to use it.

My questions are essentially:
1. Is Hornady FTX in standard pressure going to reliably expand/penetrate for defensive use in a snub like my Model 36? If so what would be a way I could test this myself affordably? (I was thinking water jugs stacked up)

2. Am I just better off getting a more modern scandium or aluminum hammerless revolver for my carry needs that can use +P?

If it's got a model number, and yours apparently does, limited use of +P isn't going to hurt anything but your hand. They may be hard to find, but Speer does produce loads specifically for short barrels.

Ammunition to go generally has the results of gelatin test for their ammo, you might try there. However, whatever media is used for testing is for apples to apples comparisons between different selections. It's not necessarily what you're gonna see in the real world. A whole lotta people/critters have been "stopped" with minimal to no expansion.

Having said all that, where you put the bullet is the most important component of the ability to stop. Second is that the bullet have enough penetration to reach vital organs. BTW: Unless they've changed their parameters, the Personal Defense line is a bit lacking in penetration, unfortunately, they don't seem to produce Critical Duty in .38 Spl.

I think the standard velocity lead semi-wadcutter(NOT hollow point) in in 38 special is going to get as much as can be had out of a snub revolver. It penetrates well, predictably. It isn't a death ray, but then nothing in that platform is. I find it accurate and controllable in my airweights. Hollow points have shown erratic performance from snubs in my experience. If I was limited to one load in all my 38 specials, standard velocity SWCs would be the load I would choose.

Learn to shoot well; ammo is secondary. Get several boxes of 158 grain cast SWC ammo, standard pressure or +P doesn't matter. Whatever you shoot best is the right ammo for you. Consider factors like accuracy at 10 and 25 yards, quick recovery from recoil, and point-of-aim vs. point-of-impact.

Don't waste time shooting up very close; if you're skilled at 25 yards, you'll be fine at 5 yards. Don't get wrapped up in the trivia of ballistic esoterica as promoted on YouTube and by Internet hotshots; you'll find it becomes a needless and endless obsession. Learning to shoot well is far more important. Good luck-

I agree that shooting well and shot placement is what matters most. I will continue to test until I feel confident in my ammo as I am with my Chief.

My 38 J frame snub nose can not put out a lot of fps to help out the SD bullets that I have shot over the years.

I have four types of bullet weights from lead to copper jackets, from 110 to 158 grs
that I can put at POA, if needed.

However I think that I will start off with two shots first and see if I need two more , or more to get the job done?

You do have to prepare for all options, that might take place.

I think the current and general thought amongst J-Frame owners is that .38 Special (Non +P ammunition) may or may not expand reliably. Certainly velocity is critical when it comes to epxansion. As noted, a +P round will increase the odds of reliable expansion. With respect to your Non +P rated Model 36 J-Frame, is going to limited in choice. If I owned a Model 36 that was identical to yours, I would certainly choose the 148 gr. Factory Loaded Wadcutter as it's most likely going to be the most accurate and softest shooting round avaible to you. The only downside I can think of would be that you're not going to have a super fast reload due to the recessed bullet in the shell casing. If you desire modern JHP's then, then I think you have a great reason to buy yourself a new hammerless J-Frame rated for +P rounds. Lastly, your older version of the Model 36 is a fantastic firearm and a keeper and is viable for carry.

The factory 148 gr. WC is certainly worth trying, just keep in mind the very low velocity you will get with such ammo. It likely won't break 700 fps and may be closer to 650; very slow indeed.

My mother is 93 years old and she has Federal 148 grain HBWC in her Colt Detective Special.

I am a little younger and I prefer Federal 158 grain LRN in a snubby because that was all my LGS had.

Don’t overthink it. Train, practice and have a plan.

+/- 650 fps. definitely sounds right out of 1.875" Barrel.

Does anyone know: What specific loads were used on Lee Harvey Oswald, and Bobbie Kennedy? Sorry if I struck a nerve. I can understand if I did.

__________________
"Don't Give Up the Ship"

Something to consider. The original Police caliber was the 38 Special and that hung around for a very long time in a round nose soft lead format. Probably was in used until the early 70's when the "wondernines" were taking over. That's nearly 70 years where the standard Pressure el cheapo 38 Special was considered "good enough" and actually served pretty darned well. No, it's not a one shot stopper. Fact is no handgun caliber is a one stop shot. The only sure way to get a one stop shot with a handgun is to shoot the Brain Stem, a relatively small area. Failing that the next best area to hit is the trunk of the body, you know the good old Center of Mass. Put just two rounds into that area and probably 99% of assailants will stop what they are doing. It's why the good old round nose 38 was so effective for so many years.

My simple conclusion is that about the only thing you need to do with your model 36 is put some decent sized grips on it. Yeah I have a model 36 and found that with the tiny original grips there was no way to effectively shoot the gun in multiple shot mode without re-gripping the gun after every single shot. As a result a basic double tap will take about 1 1/2 second with those tiny little grips. If you want to use this pistol for Defense then forget about pocket carry and put some good Combat grips on it and carry it at the waist. If you don't believe that is necessary here is a Challenge for you. Go to the range, set your target at 25 feet, then your goal is 2 rounds into the COM IN UNDER 1/2 Second.

I and many of us who were LE will not agree with the standard 158gr, round nose ammo for carry. that stuff was **** as was the round nose 115gr 9mm back in the day. I would look at something like the 135gr Gold Dot for short barrels. There are other very similar ones out there that expand reliably out of a SB J frame. 148gr hollow base wadcutters also work pretty good especially at close range. Do some research and chose accordingly.

I believe Lee Harvey Oswald was shot with 38 standard velocity round nose lead bullets. Kennedy was shot with 22s.

Remember that these events occurred over 60 years ago when the ammo industry hadn’t begun to capitalize on the market for private defensive ammo.

Load your 36 with standard 158 grain wadcutters and go forth well healed. There's a lot of marketing hype and social media anecdotes about the best, but it is very hard to beat the old school, SWC. I would shy away from the 148 grain full wadcutter only because I would be afraid that if you had to use it against someone with heavy clothes or that was very girthly (I think I made that word up), it wouldn't penetrate well enough.

Probably no figures exist, but the 158 grain round nose factory cartridge likely ended the lives of more good guys and bad guys than all other handgun ammos combined. This round was easily the most popular and most available of all .38 Special ammunition for many decades.

I'm not making recommendations and I'm far from an expert. Perhaps not the best load today, but still at least slightly useful. Maybe it doesn't warrant all the critcism it receives, much of which is merely something someone read then repeated.

I have 3 boxes of Fiocchi 148 grain wadcutters and shot a box. I really enjoyed them, the only issue is that they do not fit my speedloader. That is not a dealbreaker as I could use strips, but it does sort of render my Speedbeez kit useless unless I wanted to use that for FMJ for practice. I am someone who enjoys practicing with what I carry as much as possible so I will have to weigh the pros and cons of that issue.

The Hornady FTX shoots fine and fits Speed Beez but is cost prohibitive and as you mention, I question the reliability of expansion at the speed of standard pressure loads even with the FTX tip.

I have some American Eagle Lead Round Nose which expands a tiny bit and I drive tacks with, the Chief seems to really enjoy this stuff so I got 6 boxes of it. I shoot this the best, but worry about overpenetration (maybe not a concern at 38 special standard pressure speeds) and perhaps not enough expansion to be a reliable defensive round.

I think my carry round will be one of these or as you mention maybe switching to something that does have +P capabilities and keeping Flat Latch Chief as a BUG or Range Gun because I love the history of it so much.

I'm sorry but I'm confused as to.why everyone seems to be so concerned or even obsessed with bullet expansion?

A well placed shot is a well placed shot. If you hit something important with even minimal expansion you will stop the attack without the bullet expansion looking like a picture in an advertisement. IMO find an ammo you can shoot well and is reliable and go with it.

If you carry a 158gr LSWC round and do your job, the ammo will do it's job.

Just a note, S&W said any all steel revolver with a model number (1957 on) can be safely shot with .38 Special +P ammo. It will slightly accelerate wear but practicing mostly with standard pressure ammo with a cylinder or two of +P at the end of practice will work for most guns in good condition. Carrying +P won't hurt the gun, especially since you will probably never have to use them, God willing.

I have a M36 and I carry the FBI load in it when I do carry that revolver. Of course I would never tell anyone what they should do, I'm only reporting what I do.

__________________
Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

I too was thinking of short barrel Gold Dots in .38 spl.

__________________
NRA RSO

Here are some more test results from a snubby you may be interested in.
38 Special Ammo for Sale - AmmoToGo.com

__________________
USN Submarine Service '66-'71

OK, the ammo companies are currently making paired training and defense labeled ammo. The only difference is that one has a non-expanding bullet and the other has a (hopefully) expanding bullet. So long as your practice ammo has about the same weight bullet and velocity as your carry ammo, that's good enough for practice/training.

That goes even for semis so long as you ran enough of your chosen defense load through your example to make sure it works in your gun.

Absent a central nervous system hit, the bigger the hole, the more it bleeds, the faster the blood pressure drops, the quicker the bad guy stops doing whatever it was that caused him to be shot in the first place. Add to that, the bigger the frontal cross section, the more resistance it creates inside the body and more energy is transferred to the target that can disrupt nerve transmission which also helps to stop the bad guy. A bullet that does not remain in the target transfers energy to whatever it comes into contact with outside of the target which is wasted relative to causing damage to the intended target. That's why the 158 grain round nose was such a poor performer. It tended to drill a .358" hole and then continue on to whatever it hit next. The reason the SWC 158 grain performed better than the round nose is that the blunt nose transferred it's energy to the target more efficiently. That's why we pay attention to expansion issue.

The water is usually muddied somewhat when you mix textbook gunfighting theory with what actually happens in the world we live in. Some of each may be more realistic. There will always be the argument about the bullet expending all its energy in the target vs. making an exit hole. Either sounds quite painful and potentailly fatal to me.

Learning to shoot well remains more important than any abstract "knowledge" but many would probably argue the point. If you do well using standard velocity, +P, roundnose, SWC, or anything else in your gun, have at it.

I did this about 20 years ago. And did it with 2" snubbies for about 20 years before that.



I'm down to my last 8,000 of these bullets.

__________________
Carry.."hope" isn't a strategy

Shot placement trumps everything else. The problem comes when things get difficult. Having to shoot through heavy clothes, not having a center mass torso to aim for, drugged up perp who isn't feeling any pain and a million things that I can't even think of. Having a bullet expand or dump as much energy as possible into a target will give a bit more room for error. The idea isn't necessarily to be fatal but more about making the bad guy stop what he is doing as fast as possible. Disrupting the nervous system and dropping the blood pressure is how you get to that point. The books are full of examples of people taking multiple hits that were fatal but the person was able to fight on for a while and continue to do damage. But you are right on point with shooting skill. It doesn't matter what kind of bullet you have if you miss.

If you re-watch Harrell's videos on standard pressure 38 special you will see that the old 158 grain 38 Special round nose lead did pretty well. It had bit more penetration than preferable, but it seemed to tumble. The same round in semi-wadcutter would probably be ideal in your old 36.

__________________
Loyalty Above All.. but Honor

And yet you will see some pundits who suggest that this is great. The perp bleeds out the back as well as the front.

__________________
Release the Kraken

For civilian SD, like I said, a good shot is a good shot. We are not law enforcement or in the military needing the target to drop right there. Most bad guys aren't superman and when hit they don't want to be hit again so they stop. Of course drugs changes everything but then again we practice the failure drill for a reason. Any bullet which breaches the cranial cavity will give you that nervous system stop you reference.

Today with all the Internet chatter, far too many people over complicate SD. Train for something we all wish will never happen and learn how to shoot your gun very well. This will keep you alive, not some special bullet which is the new star of the month.

Shoot only when you must but be sure to hit what you shoot at.

__________________
Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

Is the ftx going to reliably expand? If it doesn't so what? It will still do the job as well as any non-expanding bullet, No? Chris Baker's testing at Luckygunner.com showed that at standard pressure 38Spl you could get reliable penetration, or expansion, but not both. What you are trying to do is open a hole in the wall of an artery/vein. The bullet needs to be fat enough to hit an artery as it passes through. It needs to go deep enough to hit the artery in the torso. What if some expanded rounds went shallow but other rounds went really deep? Just send them all downrange and let 'em do that.

The real question is how are you going to fight with it? You may want to watch Mas Ayoob's YouTube video regarding "the New York reload." He draws the j frame first! He pours it into the target while advancing. (Remember, the j frame is a short-range weapon; the 38Spl is a close-range caliber. Furthermore, because aggressive attacking movement is thought to be the best survivable tactic, and because I have trained for it, I am going to close with my enemy.) The snub he then drops on the ground as he draws his 3rd Gen. He carries mags for his 5906 and does the standard mag swap.

Mine is a Model 38 Airweight Bodyguard. I have it loaded with LSWC 158 grain rounds. Because of the hammer shroud' it slides smoothly out of the pocket. My dear friend has a Model 36 and with no hammer shroud he gets his out faster than I can get mine out. Not sure how he does that. He can hit a squirrel at 20 yards. Not sure how he does that either. The airweight does not pull my breeches down; it is so very light. I can put my hand in my pocket, and nobody is the wiser.

You should consider whether this tactic makes sense because you can load your new scandium Centennial with +P ammo, it would disappear in your pocket, and it would come out faster than anything your assailant would ever be expecting.

Please correct me anyone. That is how I learn.

__________________
696-6906-457-38-3913-CS40-411

I too keep the FTX in my 38 special revolvers. From the Luckygunners test, it is the best penetration vs expansion option in the 38. I trust their testing, no need to try it out myself. Only testing I do is verify function, accuracy and my ability to stay on target.

Rosewood

In .35 caliber guns with less than 1100 fps impact velocity I look for penetration over expansion. I have a bunch of friends and acquaintances who have shot both people animals and things with .38 Special +P loads and the bullets just deformed a little.

One friend shot a guy in the neck at less than 10 yards with a FBI load out of a M60...the bullet stuck in the guys neck. And he ran off.

Only .38 ammo that gets carried in my M649-2, 60-1 or 2.5" Colt Diamondback are the Buffalo Bore, Underwood or Lost River +P 158 HPs or solids... They all run 1000+- fps from a 2"...

For the couple of boxes of ammo those guns will see over their lifetime it isn't going to hurt anything...except for maybe the one who is on the receiving end...

Bob