This post is primarily for all who carry snub nose revolvers. Feel free read on if you dare to...

Enter the 357 Magnum. It appears now, that the once venerable man-stopping .357 cartridge is perhaps dying now in terms of a formidable self-defense load. Primarily the snub nose revolver.

Now killed off by the current trend and proponents of lesser recoil, faster follow-up shots, less flash, less blast, feasible logistics, less or no physical pain or perhaps injury. And so it seems, the .38 Special has pretty much hi-jacked the .357 magnum in terms of the ulitmate concealed carry load.

The wadcutter is now the all-raging hipster go-to load. Crazy as it seems, some folks are afraid to shoot .38 +Ps out of their +P-rated J frames. Let's not forget that there are some well-known people who are now saying the .38 Special Speer Gold Dot Short barrel load doesn't expand out of a snub nose and so it's basically a worthless load! Have we lost our minds here?

Well, like the title says ... Self Defense: 357 Magnum vs 38 Special...

What is the current consensus here on the Smith & Wesson Forum?

Short answer, you are full of "stuff"! I can't use the word I would in conversation face to face or I would get "dinged".

All the things you cite are personal preference of people who are uncomfortable with recoil and don't want to be hurt. They are not true negatives except to individuals. .38 Special +P doesn't, can't, and never will "eclipse .357 Magnum, but just may be more popular. And, yes, the .38 wad-cutter can be an adequate self-defense load, but be prepared to shoot until you know the threat has been stopped, even if it takes emptying the gun into the target. This is one argument against J-frames compared to K-Frame size revolvers or automatics!

With a firm two-handed grip you can fire follow-up shots with .357 just as quick as a .38, it is a matter of training. At legitimate self-defense distances you will have no problem placing your shots "In the ten ring"! This assumes you can remain calm enough to do it!

In a real situation you will not feel recoil, hear the gun, or, probably, even know how many shots you have fired!

'Nuff said!

__________________
Gunsmithing since 1961

Okay. If I have to vote...no .357 out of J Frames for me. This goes for carbon steel, stainless, Airweight and scandium alloys. I do not like it. Slower follow-up shots. It is disorienting, in a sense. I see no advantage over a good .38 or .38+P. Not my thing.

I carry .357 in a K Frame snub 19 or 66. Rarely carry a K frame snub in town.

148 gr to 158 gr projectile at 1000 fps. It can be any type or kind you want jacketed or lead gas check or not. The case you use is up to you.
You think these kids now a days sit around having these kind of bull sessions??? They use just about anything they can steal and they ALL work pretty good. Calibre of choice is the 9mm cause it is cheap and it will put you down. If it was good enough for de furher it is good enough for them.
Anything that starys with a 4 is just too expensive.
Let's face it. Today's youngsters view good double action revolvers a relic of the past, much like we viewed the hawg leg cowboy guns of the 50's and 60's.
In another 20 years revolvers will be relegated to "cowboy" type shoots and SAA status. Progress....ain't it grand

__________________
Forum consigliere

I see it is time to beat a dead horse again. When beating a dead horse it is best to use the heaviest and nastiest club or hammer you can find, preferably a magnum model.

The .357 magnum was developed in the mid-1930s in response to a perceived demand for a handgun cartridge capable of penetrating automobile bodies and retaining enough energy to wound the gangs of "automobile bandits" roaming around the Midwest and south terrorizing entire towns, robbing banks, and generally thumbing their noses at local, state, and federal law enforcement agencies.

The development was moderately successful in winning law enforcement contracts during a period when many towns were building concrete reinforced bunkers in town squares equipped with Browning Automatic Rifles and Thompson Sub-machineguns. The greater success came in sporting applications with tales of hunters stalking great hulking beasts around the world using the mighty new revolvers.

After nearly 90 years it is probably impossible to separate fact from fiction or idle dreams from reality. Modern developments have moved sharply away from the original emphasis (penetration, metal piercing, heavy automobiles filled with armed thugs) and more toward controlled expansion and rapid energy transfers to the target. This has probably delivered some good products, useful for a variety of purposes, but has also resulted in what might be described as a cult mentality among those who seem to worship at the "bigger hammer is better altar".

While I carried .357 revolvers for many years as a cop, and even longer for field and hunting use, I consider the round to be excessive for defensive use and potentially dangerous in populated areas. I understand that I am uttering heresy in the arena of magnum enthusiasts, but so be it.

__________________
Life of the party until 8:00PM

My POV is a pocket carry is just a BUG to your primary.

Now a M19 2 1/2 inch is a great 357 Magnum shooter if you are.

In my LEO career I knew many who won gunfights with 38 Special 158 grain LRN.

To paraphrase Mark Twain; “What counts is not necessarily the size of the gun in the fight – it's the size of the fight in the gunfighter.”

SAY WHAT?

You never finished filling out your Profile information so we have no frame of reference as to WHERE in America you are carrying

Now a 38 wadcutter is better than carrying nothing at all if that is all you are capable of handling

If you live in Miami where T-shirts are worn in the Winter, wadcutters may do you just fine

If you are in the Northern States . . . Minnesota, Maine or perhaps Alaska where you might need to shoot through a leather jacket or sheep's skin shear-ling in winter time, I would not be staking my life or the lives of others on a soft lead wadcutter

If you have to shoot through a barrier, let us say a windshield, to save your life or the life of another, that soft lead wadcutter is not going to do the job

But I would still rather see you carrying a 22 than leaving your 357 Magnum at home

__________________
"Acta non verba"

My opinion? There are a lot of mistaken assumptions in the OP. I don't agree with a lot of it but we will be civil about this, correct?

__________________
Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

...I don't need to shoot through car doors, which is why the Highway Patrols commonly carried them. Besides, car doors aren't as heavy as they used to be. In order to conceal it would have to be a 'J' frame for me. Though I could handle it, practice with a .357 J frame would not be any fun. For close range SD, a .38 Special works just fine. I don't have to pull the trigger just once with a .38, just like with my 9mms. I don't need to wreck my ears inside the house any more that necessary, whether I can hear it or not. .357 isn't going anywhere. In my 686 it's a great gun for shooting with any load. I can shoot .38s or full bore .357s anytime I want. My wife says she likes her .380 just fine and if she did carry a 'J' frame I'm sure it would have .38s in it.

__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

I’m a big proponent of the .38spl. I really like the way the shorter case ejects from a smaller gun but nearly all factory loaded 38 special is loaded just a little bit lite for 2” use. I would just like to see a real 875 to 900fps with the Gold Dot 135gr or 160 swchp from a 2” bbl. The only way I know how to get that round is to hand load. Larry Gibson has done some testing for pressure and the factory 135gr +P Gold Dot doesn’t even make +P pressure. I find that I must load my own to get what I want. Of course a lot of people are not comfortable carrying handloads for SD. Of course everyone has their own ideas and opinions and I’ll leave you yours.

__________________
dd884
JMHO-YMMV

There is no question that the grips on small frame revolvers are difficult to manage, particularly for people with large hands. I carried both 19's and 66's with 2 1/2" barrels for many years with a preferred load of a Berry's hollow based 148 grain wadcutter loaded backwards and a stiff load of Unique. The revolvers were small enough to fit in the back pocket of my jeans. However, there is still the argument to be made for maximum energy dump and a few years ago I came to the conclusion that the short barrels gave up too much velocity versus a 4". Yes, I know that it's only about 100fps but a handgun is a relatively under powered weapon and every fps means something. The old masters like Elmer Keith and Bill Jordan believed that one should shoot and carry the most powerful calibre you can shoot well. I think that is still true. Yes, there is a penalty for large frame revolvers in terms of size and weight for concealed carry but you can do it with a good holster and appropriate clothing. So what do I carry now? I carry a 4" 57 41 magnum with a hand loaded 215 grain full hollow pointed wadcutter cast relatively soft of 1-16 tin and driven with AAC-7 for 1125FPS. In the summer I shoot every day and in winter atleast 3 times a week. I know this is not everyone's cup of tea but each to his own and what ever gives you confidence.

I’m probably the wrong guy to ask. Still carrying 5 FBI loads, for years. Not “that type”, I mean the same exact 5 rounds.

Probably qualifies as old school.

__________________
Uvidíme se později, aligátore.

Jeff Cooper noted that all the "Magna" need a long runway to get up to speed, the .357 was developed in an 8 3/4" barrel, he also thought it was loaded hotter then. IMHO a snub nosed .357 w/magnum loads not much more than a +P+ 38. And as Bill Jordan was fond of saying "Speed (and Power) are fine but Accuracy's final. Don't recall Charlie Askins being a big 357 advocate.

Deleted, shouldn't post before coffee.

Some people argue you must practice with what you carry....I don't buy it.

That midset equates to a lot of disregard for .357magnums. Thus there seems to be a preponderance of people advocating 38+P because they fear the .357 in a small gun.

The secret to shooting a .38 caliber snubby is practice. Practice what you want, be it drawing from concealment, first shot placement, muzzle control in DA fire, whatever. All those things will contribute to learning to shoot a small revolver well, and it can be done with dry fire coupled with hundreds of practice rounds of mild 38's. Then stuff it with .357 mags for carry.

I put 10-12 boxes of light .38's thru my EDC every year, and every 50-rd session is ended with a cylinder of 125HP magnums. That last cylinder always goes into the same coffee cup sized group as the .38's.

__________________
Carry.."hope" isn't a strategy

Either one works great. Pick whichever you shoot best and practice.

End of story.

The recoil and faster followup are easily moderated by practicing more with what you shoot. Who cares about the blast, except for the poor schmuck the gun is pointed at? Feasible logistics, WTH is that? Less or no physical pain or perhaps injury? For the shooter, if he has that he's not doing it right; if it's the target, again, who cares? And there is a HUGE 9mm fanbase who would argue the point all day about .38Spl./.357M being the ultimate CC load (and they're wrong). As for wadcutters as a defensive bullet, certainly they would work in many circumstances, but they carry little energy and don't penetrate anything more substantial than paper. Heavy clothing would be as effective as Kevlar almost.

I'll stick with my 2-1/2" M66-1 and 158JHP medium loads around 1250 fps.

Since for EDC I use .357 Magnum Federal Premium 154 Grain JHP at 1,340 fps, I also use heavier guns at 31 - 38 ounces for control / rapid follow-up. The .357 remains arguably the most lethal platform as evidenced by numerous studies including the chart from a Boston study which is mostly typical of the results of other similar studies (see Houston 2000 - 2010).
Notice among this limited sample group the .38/.38+P group is not even half as lethal as the .357 magnum; and, the .357 magnum is the most lethal among any caliber listed.

Attached Images

	Screenshot 2023-08-13 at 6.42.58 AM.jpg (23.9 KB, 35 views)
	IMG_1577.jpg (48.0 KB, 17 views)
	IMG_0006.jpg (55.5 KB, 27 views)
	IMG_0195.jpg (73.8 KB, 24 views)

Thank you for the post. Even though we old timers have been through this same discussion again and again, I can see how others will need to hear this stuff, and for them it may be the first time.

The title to my post I hope you will take as the serious answer that it is. Many many people in our world today come to this subject with no knowledge background in fighting or western martial arts. What are the essential truths that apply to mortal combat and what special circumstances apply to gunfighting specifically?

Endless discussions on caliber and carry do not do any harm, just remember to think about how to win the fight.
You have heard it said by them of old time, "Caliber doesn't matter." But I say unto you that it does matter when it does matter.
Most of the time, having with you, as you go about, skill and competency with the weapons which are with you, well, this is all you need...until you need more. You cannot fake this. They can just tell, and you will never know they just left you alone. But sometimes it takes more.
Those times, most of the time your enemy will only realize you have a weapon with you when he sees you draw it and just get out of there...if he is not too stupid. Then you will need to make a big flash and a loud sound, we call this a miss, but when you fail to kill him it will be the first signal to his addled brain that you are not an easy target, unless he is fierce and determined then you will need to do more.
Those times you will need to hit him. Shot placement? If your shot places a new crease in his hairdo, he might take that as a sign that things are not going as planned. I am not talking about deliberately firing a warning shot or shooting the legs, I am talking about what it takes to get your enemy to quit and leave, for you to win.

At this point any person with minimal skills and any weapon has handled his situation and will tell the stories of his fearless might to young children in decades to come. Revolver or Auto doesn't matter. .22LR or 44 magnum doesn't matter. Mag capacity or reload speed doesn't count either. What matters is what your opponent did.

When does caliber matter? To answer that I need you to understand the limits of a handgun wound. Many people in our society are brainwashed by movies that if you get shot you fall down, so they do! It is called emotional fainting and be thankful for the movies that convinced your enemy to do this. Now a high-powered rifle forces a collapse but a handgun round of any caliber works by causing blood loss.

I like to carry something with a "4" because things go wrong. Yes, a .22 is all you need if you are close enough and your target holds still. It is also good enough if you were off your aim, but he didn't hold still and moved into the path of your bullet which tore a hole in an artery wall and a whole lotta blood leaked out.

I am getting long-winded, and I think I have got y'all thinking with me, so I'll stop. Let me recommend an article:
by Charles Remsburg,
"10 Critical Habits for Winning a Gunfight',
February 17, 2010,
at website: police1.com/officer-shootings/articles
The only mention of caliber is under proper use of cover.

__________________
696-6906-457-38-3913-CS40-411

Ouch!!!!! I agree with everything you said. But ouch !!!!!

Carry the round you can shoot most accurately and shoot with a rather fast follow up shot .
Only hits count .
A hit with a 38 Special beats Missing 5 times with a 357 magnum ...
Seven Ways To Sunday .
Missing will get you killed ...
Carry whatever you can hit with ...
As my Dad would say " Boy ...don't be acting the Fool !"
Gary

__________________
Certified Cajun
NRA Member

I am a teacher and a preacher so I come by it honestly.
With practice maybe I can improve my writing.
I noticed you quoted my entire bloviation.

Echoing your other comment, my friend who has spent his life as an EMT always said to use the 357 magnum because "when I get there, there is nothing for me to fix!"
Your chart from Boston is interesting and pertinent so good job. I just want everyone to remember that people do not die instantly the way they do on TV.

__________________
696-6906-457-38-3913-CS40-411

Maybe you can succinctly explain your personal experience gathered from all those pistol fights you were involved in with….the Air Force? 😂

I didn’t.

But if you’re asking 3 years in the Army 3rd BN 75th Ranger Regiment from 1986-1989 then 21 years in LE with a southern sheriff’s department, 11 of that in a drug task force. Currently a full time firearms and tactics instructor who teaches in 48 states, 11 countries outside of the U.S., four branches of the military, 6 federal law enforcement agencies and I’ve held a small contract within a small section of the intelligence community organized under the DoD for the last 8 years.

That’s the summarized version. Google my username or ShivWorks if you’re inclined for more.

I didn't initially mention my time in the Army either since you can only choose one branch of service on this site's profile selection, and I chose my enlisted time in the USAF. Assuming backgrounds is virtually always incomplete.

My favorite surveillance video of like forever I cannot find on the internet anymore sorry. So take this for what it is worth. An off-duty cop enters a check-cashing, payday loan place and discovers a robbery in progress when he walks up to the counter beside the perp and sees the gun pointed at the clerk.

The cop falls immediately to the ground and draws his 9mm and fires upward at him and the round goes through the bad guy's heart and destroys it! The man does not die instantly instead he jumps down on top of the cop and pounds on his face with one hand, while the cop squirms, controlling the gun arm at the elbow. Suddenly the perp jumps up and runs outside and dies in the parking lot in front of the store.

I can't remember exactly how long he kept fighting. Every time I remember the story it gets longer and longer ya know. Whatever number i suggest, someone will say it is impossible, but the point is that any of the calibers suggested would have been equally as adequate and inadequate. Caliber was not decisive in that engagement. Magazine capacity was not decisive either. The non-expanding Gold Dot would have been fine.

Somehow the cop knew his gun had already done all it could do, so he spent the rest of the fight staying alive, preventing the dying man from killing him. Maybe one of the retired LEO's here can tell me why he went to the floor as part of the draw, but what I could see was that the backdrop for the cop's shot was the ceiling instead of one of the other customers. He also shot through soft tissue going under the perp's ribs. Did he mean to do that?? From Krav Maga I could see that the way he controlled the bad guy's gun arm at the elbow was expertly done. Was he trained that way?

Uh-oh, I'm bloviating again...sorry.

__________________
696-6906-457-38-3913-CS40-411

And marginalizing a well reasoned and composed post by calling it “bloviating” that was written by a minister is fairly disrespectful and may very well invite other people’s attention towards you.

On the background note you want to flesh your’s out or just call it done here and now?

I used to run Mozambique drills with a 629, but that's me. I'd have no issue with a 357. Others are not so seasoned.

__________________
it just needs more voltage

sounds a bit like the Miami shootout where Platt took a 9MM black talon to the boiler room and proceeded to cut up a team of feds while suffering a fatal wound.
There's always going to be cases like this where the dead are kinda slow to get the memo.

__________________
it just needs more voltage

...to keep firing until the threat is neutralized. After I emptied my gun and threw it at him, then I would wrestle with him.

__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

I tried to resist actually posting something here. This argument is just as worthless as what kind of ammo you use or what caliber is best. The OP has presented a false dichotomy, is one better than the other. Neither is good nor bad/better or worse. I don't care if it is a 2 inch barrel or a 10 inch.

The best firearm is the one that you can shoot accurately as quickly as you can while still keeping that accuracy. As I posted on my Keith my 38 thread. I believe you can get ammo hot for the 38. It seems to still be a relevant form of protection at the very least. People that say the 357 is on the outs are just saying that to spark a response. If it was, then gun makers would stop making 357. The 38 would be long gone by now.

If you have to start a thread, make it a relevant one.

I've been shooting .357 since I was about 15, if I could only ever choose one cartridge the .357 would be my choice. But when I carry a revolver it is always .38 special, as I type this there's a model 642 in my pocket.

__________________
Life Member GOA and NRA

I find it worthwhile to draw on other's knowledge and experience, so I don't find these discussions superfluous. I've gotten some good leads on people actually involved in forensics from here. But no matter what I hear or read, I have to use my own judgement.

Choose well, train well, react well, shoot well, hit well. Until it stops well.

Oh yeah. 44 magnums are proven man stoppers. I can shoot one ok, but it ain't gonna be what I carry, even if it's in a 'J' frame. Even with Pachmehr grips.

__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

I used to carry one. Thing is though, I was more rural then than I was urban. It was more likely that i'd have a run in with something that had more feet than I did and I carried accordingly.
This choice would overlap into urban environments where I could "afford to make due"
I used that 44 a LOT, and it taught me a few things along the way.
In tailoring a handload I felt a prudent minimum for combat, I found myself gravitating to something ballistically similar to the upper end of 45 ACP. You can guess what I carry today.

__________________
it just needs more voltage

The hard core "what if" gunfighting aspirants are never short of words. Will the derangement ever cease? Pointless....

Well, I can carry this loaded with 5 rds of the "magical" Federal 125 gr HP moving at over 1,000 fps. I'd be well armed.

I do carry this 9mm with 15 rds of 124 gr Federal HP moving at about 1,000 fps. It is larger and weighs a couple oz more but folks should carry what they think is best. (The 6906 worked for 27 years previously.)

Joe

__________________
Behavior Creates Destiny

You are right about "a .38 on the hip". There is a well-regarded martial arts instructor who says that time and again, real self-defense devolves to a .38 on the hip.

You are wrong (or at least I disagree and admit that I may be the one in the wrong:-) that the original post is irrelevant. there is a generational difference at work.

Some of the Gen Z's will say "OK Boomer" and thereby dismiss and discount fifty years of experience, study and hard-learned lessons. Part of the difference shows on social media platforms where they meet and reinforce each other's mistakes. I may have done the same back in my day, I ain't admitting nothin'. There are younger men who literally mock anyone who carries a revolver!

The OP also mentioned people who are afraid to shoot +p rounds in their .38 revolvers. Some of these men seem to have overestimated the awesome magical killing power of those rounds. I am convinced that they are not interested in preserving their fragile handguns, rather they want to believe that they are carrying a weapon that is worthy of defeating every villain in the Marvel universe!

You have good things to say to them, IAM Rand, which they need to hear. Of course it is not your responsibility to teach them. You take care of your own family and your own students first. But if you will, there are some, maybe very few, smart ones who will listen to you. Some of these men and women simply had no worthy person in their life to give them the kind of guidance that you can. You may not like having to repeat yourself but that sure does not seem to bother others here on our forum, so go ahead. I have appreciated your thought from time to time if I never said so.

Respect to you!
BrianD

__________________
696-6906-457-38-3913-CS40-411

My S&W 640-1 is the backup to my backup. When it gets the call it is ONLY fed .357’s and that is all it will ever eat when in that role.

Brian as a 55 year old man I frequently catch myself sounding like my grandfather when talking about “the younger generation”. The reality of the world is that the youngsters have seen more sustained combat over their lifetime than any previous generation. They certainly have their issues just like any other generation. But a current operator at DEVGRU that came into that unit in 2006 and stayed operational with a squadron until 2013, has seen more combat and done more hits as a 35 year old man, than the entire unit did in the 80s and 90s.

It's a shame how only a few people can ruin a perfectly good thread.
I decided to close the thread because cleaning it up would have deleted about half the posts and issued several dings.
Bickering, insulting and off topic posts are all over this thread.

I'm sorry to those who were participating in this thread in good faith but this thread can't be left open.

__________________
Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437