I am trying to find the ballistics for S&W branded .357 and .38 special. These are from around 1978, blue box w/ white letters.

S357-158JHP and S38-125JHP

Also, did S&W manufacture these, or, if not, who did?

Thanks

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SWCA 3749 SWHF 867

As I recall, S&W went into partnership with Fiocchi and bought the old Alcan Co. Their ammo was built by Fiocchi with Alcan components.

Your best bet would be to find archived magazine articles from the time about the "new" ammo. They might have some real world test information.

The ballistic info may be available in old GUN DIGESTS from that era and Speer at one time published the same in their handloading manuals along with real figures that they chronographed.

Yep S&W-F stamped ammo was sold for about 60 days after They bought out the old Alcan company. I'll have to look 'em ip but I have Brochures on the Ammo and the shotguns they sold at the time. Shotguns were the S&W 1000 Semi auto and the 1000-P Pump originally then changed the pump to the 3000. The ammo specs at the time pretty much matched the rest of the industry. In all that old stuff I even have some branded loading data too. Pistol data was packaged with the handguns for a while. I even have some shotshells branded Holiday I think with S&W-F headstamps. I'm not sure where the ammo was made but Alcan products were made by Fiocchi. Boxes marked East Alton. My wholesalers at the time were Clair Frank in Willow Street Pa and Roberts shell Company In Vineland NJ...but for ne mostly shotgun ammo

Thanks, Skeet 028. These are not stamped -F, just S&W. Very interested in what you can find out. Actually, the .38 are +P. I didn't notice it at first because the $11.99 price tag was covering the designation.

My boxes are marked:
S&W Ammunition Company
Member S&W
Sporting Goods Group
Rock Creek, Ohio 44084

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SWCA 3749 SWHF 867

Fiocchi left the partnership with S&W in the mid-1970's. The head stamp was then changed to S&W from S&W-F and the ammo was then produced at a plant in Rock Creek, OH, about 45 miles east of Cleveland. Brass, powder, and jacketed bullets were purchased from established suppliers, but primers and swaged lead bullets were made in-house. Primers and brass were also sold as reloading components.

My recollection is that ballistics were in line with the other manufacturers of the day, like Remington, Winchester, and Federal.

Yep, that's it. Thank you HKSmith. Would still like to see an "official" reference to the ballistics of these rounds. Anyone?

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SWCA 3749 SWHF 867

From a collectibility viewpoint, the S&W ammunition is fairly common and easily found. At least currently, it carries no significant collectible value premium. Regarding ballistics, it is very doubtful that S&W ammunition differs from SAAMI specifications. Very similar performance to equivalent ammunition made by Remington, Federal, Winchester, etc., would be expected.

I do not place a great deal of confidence in ballistic information provided and published by any ammunition manufacturer. If you want to know how anyone's ammunition performs in YOUR gun, it is time to buy a chronograph.

Fiocchi's website states that it once had a partnership with S&W in the 1950s to manufacture ammunition in a plant in Alton IL. It later sold its partnership interest to S&W. I doubt that the reference to the 1950s is correct. Other information says that S&W-branded information was made from 1972 to 1980-81. If you are really interested in more complete information about S&W ammunition, I suggest you post a question on the International Ammunition Association's forum. That is where the world's ammunition experts hang out. And that is not an exaggeration.

Not only that, it got to the point where all the major manufactuers/ distributors were using virtually the same figures as evidenced by GUN DIGEST listings. The only way you would know of a variance was to chronograph them yourself and the slight variance from one pistol or revolver to another is usually insignificant.

I'm not an expert, but from what I've seen, ballistic variations were considerably greater before the +P designation in the early '70s. That doesn't take into account the short vs. long barrels, vented vs. unvented test barrels, etc.

I remember reading a number of tepid reviews of S&W ammunition...it wasn't well received for some reason...inconsistent accuracy or functioning? The only one well liked was the Nyclad and Federal bought the design from them. I had a full box of Nyclads and a collector bought it from me as he wanted it more than I did...and had the dineros to prove it.

thanks rockquarry; makes sense.

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SWCA 3749 SWHF 867

Thanks DWalt. Good info

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SWCA 3749 SWHF 867

I do remember they sometimes gave the ammo away with a gun purchase as a promotion. I bought a 57 in 1979 I think and got two boxes of S&W .41 ammo with it.

An early 1971 magazine article announcing the new S&W / Alcan / Fiochi ammunition included this table of the nominal velocities published by the makers. Pre-publication timing would make this circa 1970.

These are not tested velocities. The writer tested for accuracy but not velocity. Large grain of salt to be applied to the claimed numbers.

Note also that this is before the adoption by SAAMI of the +P designation.

I bought the pictured box of .38 Special new in about 1973.

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We also have Bangor Punta absorbing Smith & Wesson and then with additional strength S&W acquiring General Ordnance Equipment Corporation, a tear gas manufacturer, then merging With Fiocchi to become Smith & Wesson-Fiocchi Incorporated. Finally the acquisition of Alcan, a leader in reloading components...

Both [S&W-F & Alcan] brands will have the same head stamp - S&W-F plus caliber designation.

The Alcan marketed product will be identical to that boxed and sold in the
blue and silver S&W box. However its packaging will be predominately red, with a bullet in flight in white and a blue gun muzzle. ...



.38 Special --Velocity --Energy

148-Grain Wadcutter .. 800 fps…210 foot-pounds

158-Grain Round
Nose Lead ...... . .. 910 fps…249 foot-pounds

110-Grain in Jacketed
Hollow Point .. . .... 1390 fps…472 foot-pounds

125-Grain Jacketed
Hollow Point .. ..... 1380 fps ..529 foot-pounds

158-Grain Jacketed
Hollow Point . . .... . 1140 fps.. 455 foot-pounds

158-Grain Jacketed
Soft Point . .. .. ... . 1145 fps.. 460 foot-pounds


.357 Magnum --Velocity --Energy

110-Grain Jacketed
Hollow Point .. .. .. . 1960 fps.. 938 foot-pounds

125-Grain Jacketed
Hollow Point .. .. . .. 1775 fps.. 874 foot-pounds

158-Grain Jacketed
Hollow Point ... .. .. 1530 fps.. 820 foot-pounds

158-Grain Jacketed
Soft Point . . ...... 1535 fps.. 826 foot-pounds


9mm --Velocity --Energy

1OO-Grain full
Metal Jacket ....... 1325 fps ..390 foot-pounds

115-Grain Jacketed
Hollow Point . . ..... 1155 fps ..340 foot-pounds

..

Attached Images

S&W .38 Spl. 125 JHP pre +P box 1973.JPG (85.0 KB, 7 views)

I never used any of it and it wasn't very popular from what I remember, but I see no reason why performance or accuracy would be much different from anything else available at the time, especially in such a competitive market. I've been wrong before.

Thanks, SG-688. That is what I have been looking for. My .38s are +P, so not included in this list, but so far, so good.

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SWCA 3749 SWHF 867

When S&W was selling the shotguns the gve awat for a short time a blue heavyweight clamshell box that held 4 boxes of S&W target ammo. I bought 10 guns of semi and 10 pumps and got 20 of the clamshell boxes of ammo. The pump was a clone of the 870...the semi auto had a proprietary gas system that did not work well. The mag tube would swell from the gas pressure and the gun would stop functioning. Another continued making th shotguns after S&W quit(mossberg?) . they were trim shotguns but noone ever solved the gas system problem. A harder thicker mag tube would have done it...but not enough profit I guess. I have a partial box of their 38 special 110 gr JHP Code S38HP1 on my desk here.

....Should have put...they are HS S&W-F and the address is Alton Ill. with Smith&Wesson,Fiocchi Inc...I looked at 2 1000 boxes of Primers...one an old box of LPPs with Alcan branding Alton Ill. Priced $5.00 another SPP marked S&W with the later address. Blue and white box. $8.75 I also have a 100 box SPPs Blue white box...marked Alcan Alton, Ill... grease pencil marked 75 cents.....All are marked made in USA

From old S&W publications.

Attached Images

	0E464C8D-7870-47E3-B4F9-AA50908373A8 R&Skew&C&A.jpg (94.6 KB, 19 views)
	BBAA2D08-6D3C-4FCD-AE03-873DB404907E Skew&C&A.jpg (118.5 KB, 15 views)

You're the man, oldman!! Thank you

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SWCA 3749 SWHF 867

That's the little booklet I have too. I also have a small elongated booklet like that with reloading data too 9mm 38, 357 ...just standard loads though

Those .357 Magnum velocities must have been from a 10" test barrel, not any revolver.

Most of them were in the '70s. You could often deduct 200 fps or more from many of the book figures to get real velocities from 4" or 6" revolver barrels.

You know...It might be a good project to shoot as many of the old S&W ammos out of typical revolvers of the era. Wouldn't have to use a lot of the ammo..And it is still available at normal prices. I shot a fair amount back in the day but didn't keep the records(I don't think).. The only ammo I shot that I have the best recollection of was Supervel...and it was mostly underwhelming compared to their figures. The only loads I remember being memorable was some 110 gr HPs. I shot some of them one evening just before darkness set in...coulda use the muzzle flash to take pictures with. Shooting some out of a 4 5/8 inch BH...I thought I was going to have flash burns on my hands. I've always had a little non believing thoughts on factory ammo stats. The only ones that seemed to be in the reported ballpark were shotshell loads.

Just about everyone, myself included, used to buy Super Vel but Norma and Remington ammos were hotter and loaded to considerably higher pressures. As I recall, Super Vel .38/.357 bullets were slightly smaller in diameter than most similar bullets, presumably to keep pressures down. I don't know what effect this had on accuracy but no one bought Super Vel for target shooting. The flash, noise, and performance were more important then.

In 1970, many shooters believed a snub nose .38 loaded with Super Vel was state-of-the-art weaponry. Maybe it was.

Speaking of factory ammo velocities... Ichronoed a S&W load.. Waterfowl load 2 3/4 inch 1 1/2 ounce with plated shot. . Holy Cow...Supposed to be about 1200-1225 FPS..It actually produced over 1300 FPS. I remember it averaged 1308 out of a 30 inch Rem 3 inch Full choke bbl. I was guiding on a place that had a runoff pond full of Pintails and Baldpates. I ran 'em over the chrono because they were duck stompers...shoulders too. Pass shooting those ducks was hard on the shoulder. Being 10 point ducks and they were really good eating I shot more than 200 before the pond froze up and they left. The last bird I shot there was a banded Green Wing teal the day before if froze completely up. I always wondered what the pressures were on those loads.

You should find one of these original ammo charts....



Click on the pic for a larger view....

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.............SmithNut

I shot quite a bit of the S&W branded ammo back in the late 1970's and early 1980's. in both the blue and white cardboard boxes and the rifle ammo that was in flat clear plastic blister packs. My shooting buddy and I were convinced that it was hotter than other brands, especially in .357 Magnum loadings. Not that we had any evidence other than it seemed to have a lot more muzzle blast and flash.

There was a shop in town that always had a good supply of it, other retailers seemed to ignore it in favor of the usual Remington, Winchester and Hornady ammo. For a long time I used to find old stock at gun shows at tables of assorted ammo, usually from estate sales. I bought it up for less than new production ammo whenever I came across it. I haven't seen any in several years though.