I started my carrer in Law Enforment in 1987- carrying a 65-3, the small county agency I worked for until 1991 had this strange deal that Deputies were to carry .357s, but were were only allowed to carry the .38+P LSWCHP rounds, the so called 'FBI load". I remember at the time that it was considered my many to be the best .38 around, and still is no slouch today as a man stopper. I was not personally involved, but I do remember a fellow Deputy that got involved in a deadly force incident where he hit a 6-4" 250lb robbery suspect who was armed, high as a kite, and stopped him cold in his tracks with two torso hits

I was wondering if anyone else has/had any experience with this round, and what your thoughts are.

I found a box of the Remington 158gr LSWCHP +P a few years ago. Haven't fired any yet. 30+ years ago, I had a source at a LGS for many boxes. Shot them in a S&W 10 HB, and got 1-2" groups at 15 yards, and four burst milk jugs on tests. Recovered bullets were nearly 3/4" expanded. Only my Ruger SP101 also burst 4 jugs, and only with 357's. In the 70's, early 80's this was the FBI load?

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Heavily armed old man.

The FBI or Justice Dept. load is still available today from Federal. I picked some up this summer. They do a run of it every so often. Always carried magnum loads back in the day. If I'm lugging a K frame today, this is the load I carry.

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FBI Load.jpg (100.3 KB, 710 views)

Just curious but how much difference is there between the "FBI" LSWCHP +P load and the "Treasury" load - or are they the same thing?

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Send lawyers, guns & money...

Treasury load is a 110 +P+ round made by Winchester. If you're interested, here's an article.

Ammo Evolution: .38 Special Treasury Load – RevolverGuy.Com

My old Dept. use to issue the Winchester version of the FBI Load. I still have some.

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Watch & Pray

OK, so then the FBI loads were 158gr LSWCHP +P...
...and the Treasury loads were 110gr LSWCHP +P+

Thanks for that clarification.
If I had to choose between them I think I'd choose the FBI load.
A little less velocity but a little more lead.

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Send lawyers, guns & money...

No, the Treasury load was a 110 grain jacketed hollow point (JHP), not lead.

My instructor at the police academy was a big fan of the 4" M13, loaded with the FBI load.

Me, I carried a .45 ACP 1911 with the Speer 200 grain JHP, also known as the Flying Ashtray, at about 1000 FPS or a .44 Special loaded about the same way.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

OK, my bad, I missed the part about it being jacketed.

Despite that, I still think I'd choose the +P 158gr LSWHP for the heavier bullet, despite any advantages the jacket might provide the 110gr bullet - even when combined with the increased velocity of the +P+.

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Send lawyers, guns & money...

I carried a Colt Commander in 45 ACP (Speer 200 JHP) eventually. When I was on the Sheriff's Posse (Mounted Unit) we were authorized 357 Magnum and Federal 125 grain JHP that was the renowned manstopper of the 1980s.

When we carried the Model 10 in the middle 70's that is what we used before we went to semi autos.

I carried 158gr JHP Winchester Silvertips.

I carried the 145 gr version from 84-91, until we went to the G21. I liked em better with the nickel cases. Werewolf medicine

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213th FBINA

The Winchester 158 grain LSWCHP was first produced for the St. Louis Police Department in 1967/68 as the Q4030. St. Louis is just south across the river from the Alton, Illinois Olin plant.

The yellow box W38SPD commercial loading has SPD for St. Louis. MS stands for "multiple service." I bought the pictured box in 1973.

The FBI adopted it in 1972. "High Speed" but not yet +P.
[edit to add that the +P designation began in 1974. The pressure and velocity of the WSPD didn't change; only the head stamp.]


Warning on the back of the yellow box:

WINCHESTER ®

These Winchester cartridges are produced under exacting conditions for superior accuracy and performance. Non-corrosive primers and smokeless powder insure long barrel life. These cartridges are loaded to higher velocity and higher pressure than conventional 38 Special cartridges and are designed for use only in modern alloy steel revolvers. “WARNING—Continuous use in aluminum cylinder or aluminum frame revolvers is not recommended. If doubt exists as to safe use in your firearm check with the manufacturer.” We warrant the exercise of reasonable care in manufacture of these cartridges, but make no other warranty expressed or implied.

Muzzle Velocity 1060 ft./sec. Muzzle Energy 395 ft. lbs.

=====================

The attached page is from the 1972 Winchester ammunition catalog.

Revolverguy also has a good article on the development of +P .38 ammunition that covers this territory.

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	Winchester .38 Spl Q4030 GW 6-69.jpg (202.8 KB, 49 views)
	Winchester .38 Spl WSPD box 8 oblique.JPG (130.7 KB, 47 views)
	Winchester catalog Ammunition 1972 p14.jpg (74.8 KB, 61 views)

Very good post! Confusing times in the early 1970s. Still a bunch of .38 Special labeled as "High Velocity", "High Speed", other marketing terms. No one had any idea what "+P" might mean, or should mean. Jacketed bullets for revolvers were rare enough, and hollow-point ammunition was just starting to find a market niche (and concurrent outrage and condemnation in press and media articles). The folks at SuperVel had a lock on the market for years, super-lightweight hollow-points at extreme velocities.

Interesting times.

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Life of the party until 8:00PM

When I went on in 1982 my duty weapon was a 4” 64-3 and our duty load was the 158 +p SWCHP. I don’t recall for sure, but I do think the issued ammunition was both Winchester and Remington.
Still have several boxes in the stockpile and would not hesitate to carry it today.

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Stay Safe...
jd SWCA #3276

Yes, during the 80's. Then my agency switched to +P+ which was very hard on my M-60. I never shot anybody with either load.

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6/23/2022

It was my duty back-up and off-duty carry round in an M49 for over 20 years. Still is when I choose to carry the M49 (which isn't often now). It was called the FBI load, but I never worried about why it was named that. I just bought some at Midway last year.

I still carry the FBI load occasionally when I'm not carrying a high cap bottom feeder of some sort. It's one of my favorite tractor/zero turn loads around the farm. When I'm on the road I'm usually carrying a high cap nine with a 10 mm backup nearby...and maybe J frame bug with the FBI loads.

My choice as a duty load as a cop during the 1970s and 1980s. Still have a couple boxes of Federal .38 Special 158LSWC-HP in my stash. I'll still choose that over all the new-and-improved super-duper advertising hype. Proven record for performance.

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Life of the party until 8:00PM

At the time, (1980's-90's) I'd say the old FBI load was about the most reliable round available for SD. I still have at least 6 -8 boxes of them. I suppose if the shot placement is good, they will still get the job done.

Now days there are better loads such as the Buffalo Bore version of the same load but much hotter. It will do 1,025 fps out of a 2" Chief's Spl and over 1,100 fps from a 3" bbl. I have personally chronographed this load many times and so I know this for a fact, not just by reading an article. The Speer +P GDHP at 135 grains is also a proven load with less velocity (about 860 from a 2" bbl.) and ft. lbs. of energy of course, but has less of the felt recoil.

While the Remington +P 158 grain SWCHP has less velocity and energy than the two loads mentioned above, it also has way less recoil, will allow for quicker follow up shots and as long as shot placement is good, like I said above, it will get the job done. Don't expect much expansion out of a 2" bbl. though.

This was our duty ammo when I was forced into a confrontation in the early ‘80s in the lobby of a local motel. One round put the suspect down and out of the fight.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

It's my favorite load for .38 Special, still have 1K round case tucked away in one of the safes.

Attached Images

Federal 38 Special 38G Ammunition.jpg (58.6 KB, 579 views)

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Life Member GOA and NRA

I actually have a few boxes of the so called Treasury load from the early 1980’s. Noted is the disclaimer printed on the boxes and the two different head stamps on the cartridges. The Secret Service agent on the box carried this round in his duty revolver at the time.

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	11534C26-77CA-40BD-8813-1CE024DAB171.jpg (124.5 KB, 81 views)
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	33B0462A-48F5-4782-B548-10CB154EFE15.jpg (72.6 KB, 81 views)

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Stay Safe...
jd SWCA #3276

I got both loads long before ammo turned to gold. I bought 4-5 boxes of the Federal premium 50 rd. 158 +P Nyclad blue bullet loads. As I recall they are not bad to shoot in a K frame. Or outrageous in a steel J frame. I also got a box of Win 110 +P+ cheap too. I fired 5 of those out of a K frame snub outdoors and never again! 45 left and maybe not as bad from a 4 or 6 inch barrel? BTW the price tag on the 50 rd Nyclads was 13$. What is that now, 3 or 4 times?

Back after the pandemic had started for a while and immediately after Floyd dying but before things went nuts I saw where I could pick up the Federal version you show and still relatively cheap. I just mentioned to The Boss here that it may be a smart move to get a case of 1,000 and her reply was go ahead and get two cases of 1,000 count. That is when you know you are with the right gal.

Between .38 Special and .357 Magnum revolvers both we have more firearms that shoot the .38 Special than any other single caliber/dual caliber so a good decision.

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KM
S&WCA 3110 S&WHF 625

My agency (Cal DOC) used this load until they went over to .40 Cal recently. Fired a bunch of it over the years. Perfectly reasonable antipersonnel round. There are better loads now, but it is still perfectly reasonable, especially out of a 4" or longer barrel.

I bought this box (probably from Wal-mart) back in the mid 90's to use in my 2 1/2" Model 19. Probably wasn't the best choice for that length barrel, but you don't know what you don't know.

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Watch & Pray

I carry it in my 2” J frame. It penetrates and expands just fine in the milk jug test…… if I run into a bad guy made of plastic and water I’m good to go.

8 remember shooting a LOT of the 158gr in my dad's model 66 4 inch back in the day... impressive load.. wish I had a case in my pile...

BTW as much as I have not been a fan of Remington ammo for a long time, their 158 grain +P SWCHP "FBI Load" was the best between Remington, Winchester and Federal. I believe it is mostly because the lead in the Remington was the softest and gave the best chance of expansion.

It was a good load. Different time for sure.

I still use it in medium steel frame .38s. Great load, shoots to POA in fixed sight guns, good energy and expands in barrel >2".

As has been noted, back in the day.... it was a popular police duty load for .38 Special revolvers, or for agencies that used .357 Magnums but required it be loaded with .38 Special. Rarely do you hear a bad word about the load, given the vagaries surrounding "stopping power' in the actual event.

That was the FBI duty load adopted somtime in the late 70s or early 80s. When I started in 1986, we were issued either Winchester or Federal 158 grain SWCHP +P. This was prior to organized terminal ballistic gelatin testing by the FBI. Subjectively I thought the Federal load recoiled less, but the Winchester was more accurate.

Once got ballistic testing got underway in earnest after the 1986 Miami shooting, it was found that the Federal load was not only rather inaccurate, but had the least expansion and terminal effect. The Winchester load was better, at 50-75 fps higher velocity, and the Remington version gave the best performance. Based on contracts and availability, all three brands were used.

Expansion in a 1.9" J frame barrel was non-existent with the Federal load, small with the Winchester, and moderate with the Remington. All three were hard kickers in a J frame, even steel frame. Moving up to a K-frame 3'' and especially 4" barrel helped matters considerably. I generally loaded the Winchester, until the Remington became available.

In my own later-day testing, the Remington load gets about 860 fps in my 2" Model 10, and about 930 fps in my 4" HB current production. Other guns shoot the same load somewhat slower, a not un-typical result with revolvers. It penetrates 13.-14.5" of clear ballistic gel, and expands to .600". Groups with these guns run under 4" @ 25 yards. What's not to like?

I also load my own version, using the excellent Rimrock Bullets 160 grain SWCHP gascheck. Member ArchangelCD - sadly recently departed - convinced to try HS-6 for this loading, and it is a humdinger! Gives great accuracy and velocity. However, current loading data for this propellant is beyond lame, and actually gives poor results. Using older data +P and a magnum primer, that load does 1060 fps out of the 4" gun and 995 fps out of the 2", both with excellent accuracy out to 50 yards. This load penetrates 14-16" and expands to .630". Suits me just fine.

The FBI later moved to a Federal .38 Special +P+ 147 grain JHP-HS load, but by that time the writing was on the wall for the revolver, and 9mm pistols were already being authorized and issued.

How many grains of HS-6 were listed as being used in the older data +P?

Had 9 friends who got into 10 shootings with .38 Specials. Some shot people some the bullets ran into "things" like mailboxes, windshield glass, doors, before reaching the intended target.

7 for sure used the FBI load, one the 127 Federal Nyclad and one I'm not sure.

8 of the 9 changed guns and calibers.

One Sergent who shot a guy with a Model 15 and the FBI load couldn't have been more pleased. The rest less so.

The new loads from Buffalo Bore, Underwood and Lost River aren't really .38 Special +P but duplicate the original 1930s .38-44 loads. Pressure runs 28k psi. They are the only .38 Special loads I would stake my life on...

Bob

Interesting points. After a shooting lot of cops changed guns. I know at least two who upgraded to the Colt Python. Of course a few quit the job because they did not want to be in a second shooting.

We had a few who was contend with the Model 15 and 158 LRN.

These were my issue/carry loads in the Model 10 days. Still use them in +P snubbies...

My father loved 38 special + p ammo. He worked the freeways in the city of Los Angeles in the 1960s with a first gen 6 inch colt python. Later he carried a 4 inch Smith and Wesson 38 special when he made Sargent and a Watch commander. I have a few of his duty weapons and LAPD range officers worked on them so you you could not cock the revolver back where it was supposed to hold. He also has a two inch colt detective special that won’t cock back.

Welcome! LAPD altered their service revolvers to be double action only (DAO) beginning sometime in the 1970s. There are a few officers from that era that can provide more details of the "denutting" process of the time.

I am familiar with the place and time that your father worked. All that brown haze back when CA was a free state...fond memories.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

I remember standing on the hill, where the base firing range was located, overlooking the AFB and watching the brown L.A. smog roll in daily about noon time as the B-52s & fuel laden KC-135s roared down the two mile runway, belching tons of their own black smoke into the sky, as they clawed to get airborne with the snow covered mountain peaks in the background.

Yes, fond memories.

.

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Waiting for the break of day

Back in the 70's the old officers said it never lacked in power and hit like a 45acp. Still use it in my snubby's today,they hit point of aim.

Since this is the S&W forum I thought this photo would be appropriate. I have no idea what years I was issued this stuff. Didn't use it because I carried a 357. i did use it in later years in my 442 and remember that it was not very pleasant to shoot.

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DSC00304.JPG (154.2 KB, 83 views)

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Ken

When I started on the job in ‘97 my Model 19 and 36 were loaded with Federal “FBI load” .38 Special, later switching to the Remington version. I shot several thousand rounds of it without complaint, and fortunately never had to shoot anyone with it. We switched to the 135gr +P GDHP about 15 years ago because I could no longer get the FBI load from our approved vendors anymore. At this point I’m the only revolver left in the unit, so my .38 ammo comes from the vendor with the best price on .45 and 9mm.

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Wheel guns are real guns.

My department gave me a small quantity of the Remington, Winchester and Federal loads. I got there after they had entirely abandoned the revolver and I don't think anybody else even wanted the .38 Special ammo when they cleaned out all the old stock. According to my notes the Remington and Winchester versions each did 885 FPS over my chrono out of my 4" 627-5. I have no record of velocity of the Federal version. I prefer a hard cast non-hollowpoint bullet in .38 Special and I load those to 950 FPS in the 2" 64.

I’m not former LEO, but I’ve been using the Remington version for years in my 3” and 4” K frames. The batch I’m currently using runs 820 fps from the 3” and 855 fps from the 4”. I just bought another 100 rounds of current production - in 20-round boxes - and will chrono that to see how it runs. If it’s faster I’ll switch to it, if not I have 25 rounds left of the older stuff.

It’s still considered the best load available for fixed-sight service guns since it usually shoots to the sights. Newer ammo with better bullet construction uses lighter bullets which shoot low in most of my guns.

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Regards,

Chuck

Current Hodgdon load data shows 6.6 grains of HS6 as max for +p 158 grain 38 special. Some older manuals had 7.4 grains as max. I’ve loaded 7.4 and get just shy of 1000 fps in a 4” model 15.

As usual work up to that load and use caution.

I’m also a fan of Archangel’s old work. To be clear, the “older” HS-6 data is from the early 2000’s. The “FBI replication” load was listed as 7 grains. Here’s what I’ve gotten with coated SWC’s:

158gr Summit SWC +P
7gr HS-6, 1.46” COAL, CCI SPM

4” 19-3: 935fps
2.5” 66-1: 855fps

As always, be careful.

Speer Number 8 - the Atomic Manual - lists a very healthy charge of HS-6 as max for .38 Special. I tried it with no ill effects, but my standard load is 5% less with excellent results. Speer Number 10 (1979) lists 22,400 CUP as max +P pressure and I stay within that.

I have a recent batch of federal 158 LSWCHP (non +P) that I clocked at 756fps out of a 2 1/4 inch 649. Slower than I was hoping for, but recoil was pleasant.

In addition to the evolution of ammo, a huge factor is the improved understanding of anatomy and physiology. Better selection of the target areas on the human body makes a huge difference.

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NHI, 10-8.

The Remington 158 +P LSWCHP was the load I carried in the 80's until we gained authorization to carry magnum loads. I have some on hand for my 4" model 15.