DeanD
Member
I have read of reference to a +P .38 Spl 158 gr. LSWCHP loaded with 5.4 grs. of 231 being listed in an old Lyman manual. Generally nowadays the max charge of 231 with this bullet is 5.0, anyone ever use 5.4 grs. of 231?
.38 Spl 158 gr. LSWCHP Max 231 load?
- Thread starter DeanD
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I suspect you are confusing it with .357 Magnum data.
Winchester lists 4.7 grs max in their own .38 +P data for W-231 and a 158 gr LSWC.
Speer #14 also lists 4.7 grs max.
Lyman's 3rd Edition lists 5.0 gr of W-231 as a maximum +P load for their 158 cast #358156 gas check.
I have not seen 5.4 in any .38+P data, but Speer's #14 manual lists 5.4 grs as the max for a 158 LSWC in the .357 Magnum.
Winchester lists a max of 6.7 for a 158 gr LSWC in the .357 Magnum.
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In short, 5.4 grains is a .357 Magnum load. You may see folks occasionally loading it in a .38 Special case to shoot in a .357 Mag revolver, or in some cases in something like a Security SIx, designed for .357 Magnum, but ordered in .38 Special. However, 5.4 grs of W-231 is clearly a .357 Magnum load.
Winchester lists 4.7 grs max in their own .38 +P data for W-231 and a 158 gr LSWC.
Speer #14 also lists 4.7 grs max.
Lyman's 3rd Edition lists 5.0 gr of W-231 as a maximum +P load for their 158 cast #358156 gas check.
I have not seen 5.4 in any .38+P data, but Speer's #14 manual lists 5.4 grs as the max for a 158 LSWC in the .357 Magnum.
Winchester lists a max of 6.7 for a 158 gr LSWC in the .357 Magnum.
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In short, 5.4 grains is a .357 Magnum load. You may see folks occasionally loading it in a .38 Special case to shoot in a .357 Mag revolver, or in some cases in something like a Security SIx, designed for .357 Magnum, but ordered in .38 Special. However, 5.4 grs of W-231 is clearly a .357 Magnum load.
w231 will NOT give you top fps with the heavy 158 lead bullet but............
it will give you high pressures.
It will work for a SD load if that is all you have.
it will give you high pressures.
It will work for a SD load if that is all you have.
rockquarry
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You're right, it won't give top velocities, but it'll do pretty well and usually with better accuracy than powders with burn rates in the same league as HS-6 and Power Pistol.
You never know what a weapon will like powder wise.
I have two 9mm that love light w231 target loads.
One reason I have several powders to play with.
I have two 9mm that love light w231 target loads.
One reason I have several powders to play with.
ArchAngelCD
Moderator, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
I have never used more than a 4.5gr charge of W231 in a .38 Special case with a 158gr LSWC bullet.
I'm also thinking that 5.4gr charge is for a .357 Magnum.
I'm also thinking that 5.4gr charge is for a .357 Magnum.
38SPL HV
Member
My max 38 Spl +P with 231 and 158 gr lswc was 4.7 grs. I prefer Power Pistol in accordance with Speer data for my 38 Spl +P 158 gr lswc loads. Small ESs and SDs...Power Pistol works great in 38 Spl +P (but a bit too slow burning for standard velocity).
I don't know about the loading data, but I do know that those bullets need to be pushed at least 1000 FPS for reliable expansion. While the bullets look great, ballistic testing shows they just don't expand unless pushed pretty hard.
W-231/HP-38 will certainly give you +P pressure and quickly, but not with the velocity expected from a +P load. I suggest a medium burning rate powder for +P in the 38 Special cartridge. Consider Hodgdon HS-6, Accurate Arms #5, or the old faithful, Unique.
Getting a 158 grain swaged (soft) lead hollow point to expand is difficult enough in the 38 Special. A cast lead hollow point is not likely to expand at all in the 38 Special, even at +P velocity.
Getting a 158 grain swaged (soft) lead hollow point to expand is difficult enough in the 38 Special. A cast lead hollow point is not likely to expand at all in the 38 Special, even at +P velocity.
cowboy4evr
Member
For todays " sedate " meek and mild load data , HP38/W231 is fine . To get expansion out of your bullet in a 38 special you need a different powder . Unique would be my suggestion , but not current load data . I have a lyman manual from the late 80's - mid 90's . 5.4grs of Unique is the max for +P . Possibly between 5.0 - 5.4 grs will give you what you are looking for . I hope this helps , Regards, Paul
nbedford
Member
My most accurate loads were with 4.1 grains of W231 and 158 grain SWC's in a 4" Model 67, and averaged out at 788 fps. It is really intended to be used as a mild > moderate load. I agree with some of the others if you want speed, go with Unique loads.
Agreed.
I worked up a load using the Hornady 158 gr LSWCHP with the intent of having something along the lines of the old FBI load.
I needed at least 1100 fps to get reliable expansion and ran into the same issue Federal had with their initial FBI load - leading. I ended up coating them with Liquid Alox in addition to whatever Hornady uses.
The resulting load worked great in my 2 1/2" Model 66, but it keyholes in my 3" 686+ and I suspect the bullets are getting stripped in the rifling in the 3" barrel.
It's a lot easier to just use a good jacketed hollow point.
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boatbum101
Member
For a cast HP bullet you have to match alloy to impact velocity . If you look at Buffalo Bore 38 +P 158 LSWCHPGC that bullet is pure lead with a gascheck & they push it to almost 357 performance . For 45acp I cast a 215gr FBRNHP out of 20 to 1 alloy & @ 900fps it'll turn into a 50 cent piece . 1100 fps with a 158 in 38 special might be possible out a 6" or longer barrel , but with canister grade powders it'll be over +P pressures . Out of my pre model 23 ODM I shoot either the 358156 or the Keith 358429 . I cast them right about 12 BHN unless HP . With 4227 I can get 1150 fps or better , with 2400 I can get an honest 1300fps out a 6 1/2" barrel . Now these are 38/44 level & now days probably 357 level . Only 4 commercial casters I know off offer cast HP's with viable alloys . Bullet has to be a good design , alloy has to be soft enough to expand @ impact velocity , alloy has to be ductile enough to expand & not shatter . You don't want a bunch of antimony or arsenic & just enough tin to fill out the mould . As impact velocity increases the harder your alloy can be to a point & a gascheck or powder coating can really help . Plain base will work but alloy choice is more critical . A good lube like LBT soft blue , White Label etc is also important as is making bullets fit your gun .
cowboy4evr
Member
Very well said " boatbum 101 ' . Regards, Paul
W-231/HP-38 will certainly give you +P pressure and quickly (Quote);
My maximum w231 load out of my M49 snub nose does 816 fps.
Unique will give me 861 fps ..... but is short of a Max loading, to be easier on the weapon and me.
I have reached 948 but, why ??
If one or two at around 850 will not work, you are in deep "Stuff" !!
Give em three more !!
My maximum w231 load out of my M49 snub nose does 816 fps.
Unique will give me 861 fps ..... but is short of a Max loading, to be easier on the weapon and me.
I have reached 948 but, why ??
If one or two at around 850 will not work, you are in deep "Stuff" !!
Give em three more !!
Qc Pistolero
Member
I feel more confortable when going into +P territory when I use slower burning powder.In the case of the .38Spl,not that 21K pressure is high but playing it with a quick burning fuel can increase wear on a good gun thus reducing its useful life.
Saving one or two pennies worth of powder per cylinder is not,in my book a good investment.
There are many slower burning powders that'll give you solid +P performance without the risk of going overboard;in the case of the .38Spl,aim at burning rates around Unique(HS6 ,Universal,Power Pistoland a few others) and you'll be in the ball park.
Have fun!
Saving one or two pennies worth of powder per cylinder is not,in my book a good investment.
There are many slower burning powders that'll give you solid +P performance without the risk of going overboard;in the case of the .38Spl,aim at burning rates around Unique(HS6 ,Universal,Power Pistoland a few others) and you'll be in the ball park.
Have fun!
ArchAngelCD
Moderator, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
One of my favorite .38 Special loads is a 158gr lswc over 4.0gr W231.
