Ok....so I bought a few boxes of Winchester 9mm NATO(Q4318).
Nowhere, and I do mean nowhere does it say +P. However, I am being told that it actually exceeds +P+!! What gives?

By the way, when I fired it, I was surprised at what little recoil it had. I swear my Model 10 using 38+p has more recoil than the NATO 9mm.

I think someone gave you bad information. I have 3 boxes of the Q4318 but have not chronoed any of it yet. But I have tested the Winchester 9mm NATO RA9124N, and it averaged only 1133fps. Nothing special there. For comparison, Speer GD 124gr standard pressure JHP were 1119. There have been other threads on this subject, most recently on the Sig forum I believe, and everybody who tried the Winchester NATO was underwhelmed with it, IIRC.

Thanks...I just don't want to tear up my pistol with this ammo.

Like I said before, it was surprising what little recoil and noise this ammo had.

Some years ago while working as an armorer for a government agency who used 9mm, the question arose of how much +P+ commercial loads were beating the guns. It was pointed out to me 9mm NATO surplus ball we were using for practice was rated at +P+. I queried the commercial manufacturer and was told by one of the reps via e-mail that indeed NATO 9mm 124 grain FMJ pressures were the same as what SAAMI called +P+.

As relates to the velocity dicussion, I do not believe it is the velocity as much as it might be the bearing surfaces of the projectile bringing the cartridge into the +P+ range of pressures. NATO 9mm is expected to work in handguns and submachine guns which could have an impact on projectile design for consistent feeding in open and closed bolt SMGs and powder selection for shooting in longer than handgun barrels.

Now I have to ask a stupid question...I fired about 50 rounds of this stuff through my Kel Tec P11...do you think I have harmed/worn out the pistol?

Not a stupid question. I used to have a P11 and I doubt if it was bothered a bit. Did you notice primers flattened or the empty cases ejected violently and thrown further than usual?
I don't recall what the owner's manual for the P11 says about NATO 9mm if it says anything at all. You could call and ask them if they have an issue with it. At least you know it will function with military spec ammunition which is one of the advantages of having a pistol in 9mm which is a varied source of fodder if times get tough.

You didn't hurt your gun, this stuff is really not that hot. The back of the box says these rounds are loaded "10% higher than industry standard pressure for 9mm."

Thanks for the replies Pedersoli and Stiab!!

The way this guy was talking at a gun shop, he made it sound like I was going to blow the P11 to bits...

Appreciate the feedback.

It's not a P-11, but when I tried .380+P in my P3AT it was way too much for the gun. I'd go slow and watch that takedown pin until you're 100% confident that all is well. My takedown pin popped halfway out after less than one magazine. I'm sure glad I didn't pull the trigger again. Obviously the P-11 is a different animal so YMMV.

Back in the '80s a range I used to frequent got in what they said was NATO 9mm from Canada. Everyone
that fired it said it was hot and really slammed back the slides of their various pistols.

So maybe there's NATO and then there's NATO, with the older stuff being hotter.

I remember reading that the British Special Air Service when it was using Hi-Powers put a limit
the number of rounds (more than 1,000 I think) on them before checking them for cracks, excessive wear which was common.

For what it's worth, when Illinois was using Smith autos, it contracted with Winchester for +P+ 9mm
and reports were that the stuff was one-shot stoppers. Anyway I think the state had to sign
a waiver with Winchester to not hold them responsible for the higher pressures the +P+ worked at.

The 9mm evaluation the Air Force conducted in the mid 1970s used Canadian FMJ cartridges for the test. The Canadian ammunition arrived in plain brown square boxes of 64 each. For those of you who know about the first generation sub machine guns or machine pistols, the British sten gun used a 32 round magazine. So the stuff we shot was essentially SMG ammunition.

A wee bit off topic here, but suffice to say there have been some spicy 9mm loads produced. Anyone remember Arcane, the solid copper truncated cone 9mm out of France in the 1980s? That stuff was working at proof load pressures.

Cartridges of the World, No. 8 (1997) notes:

Caliber 9mm, NATO Ball, M882
Weapon: Pistol, M9 or M11
124 gr. copper alloy bullet
1,251 fps, +- 25 fps, at 16 meters
27,000 psi, maximum average pressure

The SAAMI industry maximum pressure is 35,000 psi.

I don't know if the M882 ammo above is the same as your Q4318 ammo. Guess you'd have to search the internet for a definitive answer.
I offer the above as a yardstick for measurement.

This topic keeps coming back. "NATO spec" is offically STANAG. The pistol ammunition specification is quite lengthy and gives a miniumum bullet weight and energy requirement and pressure limitations. As a result, there's a wide variety of ammunition that could be "NATO spec".

I can't recall the moniker of the European standardization, but they don't measure pressure the same way SAAMI does. SAAMI measures chamber pressure, roughly at the case midpoint. The other folks measure pressure at the case mouth. Their established pressure limits are higher than ours, but we're talking apples/oranges.

BTW, we may say: "Maximum pressure". The actual specification is something on the order of Maximum Average Pressure, which is quite different.

Many moons ago, I went through quite a bit of South African subgun ball. Blazer was loaded hotter by subjective feel.

As far as hot-loaded European 9mm NATO ammunition, the only one I can recall offhand is the surplus British L7 9mm stuff made by Hirtenberger of Austria. That was specifically loaded for reliable cold weather operation in HK MP5 submachine guns, and was discovered to be excessive pressure for 9mm pistols. The British Army surplused it out and it ended up on American gunshow tables in the 1990s. American Rifileman had some warning about it's use and identification.

I am a little confused here. It is my understanding that one of the issues regarding any +P+ rated ammo is that there are no published SAAMI standards for +P+ ratings. SAAMI recognizes +P but not +P+ so anything marked with that latter notation really is non specific as to pressures since there are no standards to adhere to.

So in answer to the common question "Is +P+ ammo safe to use in my ****** pistol?" is that there is no answer because there is no standard.

Visit SAAMI and try to find anything on +P+. It's not there. Those who assert that it is are promulgating another urban legend...a potentially dangerous urban legend.

I apologize that I am a little off the topic of NATO ammo but this +P+ stuff can be misleading and I wanted to say so.

By the way, I have fired some Winchester NATO (with the warning on the box that pressures are higher than standard) in My CZ-75. It was a little snappier than my usual fodder but not earth shaking. I have not tried it in my M&P and I don't really plan to. I don't expect to explode in my hand but I think that a polymer framed pistol will probalby not last as long as my all steel CZ-75, but all guns age and wear with each shot and they wear more rapidly with higher pressure ammo. I can't see what I get in exchange for the more rapid wear.

Place your shots correctly with a good standard pressure defensive ammo and you won't be disappointed.

__________________
Andy

What gives is that you are being told nonsense.
+P+ means the ammunition is higher pressure than SAAMI standards; there is no standard for +P+.

So "exceeds +P+" is a totally meaningless statement, like saying "higher than up?"

__________________
Science plus Art

I have some older Win nato 124 gr ammo that is pretty warm. Head
stamp WCC 89, box marked Q4224. My records show it averaged 1226
fps in my Browning HP and 1218 in my Glock 19. The M9 slide cracking
issue led to complaints from Beretta about the high pressures of early
M882 ammo. One source I have says that early specs called for a
velocity of 1300 fps in a 5" barrel at 42,000 psi max chamber pressure.

OK, I've been bored tonight.

First, my earlier comment upon CIP/NATO measuring pressures at the case mouth was in error. Both US & european standards measure at the case midpoint, there are still some differences in the details of the measuring methods. All pressures cited here will be measured by piezo electric devices (older standards used copper crushers and conversion tables and were sometimes noted as CUP or copper units of pressure. There is no direct relationship between CUP and PSI as measured by piezo electric devices.). However, the SAAMI pressure maximums are "average maximum pressures" and the CIP/STANAG (NATO) are "mean maximum pressures". These aren't the same thing at all. I'm not citing pressure units at all, since the piezo devices have to be calibrated. I'm taking the listed pressure conversions from KBAR to more familiar levels on faith.

SAAMI: 35,001 for standard; 38,500 for +P. Average Maximum Pressure.

STANAG: 36550 CIP: 34,100. Mean Maximum Pressure.

Please note that actual production ammunition pressures may be lower so long as the ammunition meets whatever performance standard may be in place.

You're fairly safe in saying that SAAMI/US +P is about the same as NATO/STANAG.

There is a 9mm NATO standard and it is a mean pressure of 2050 kg/cm squared according to Janes Small Arms. This converts to 29,158 PSI (rounded up). Maximum SAAMI standard pressure is 35,000 PSI so if the ammunition meets NATO specification then it is probably not +P. This pressure rating may however be a CIP European measuring standard that is measured differently than SAAMI does so the SAAMI pressure could be higher than the quoted NATO pressure.

The pressures that the various NATO countries load their military ammunition to varies.

The terms "mean pressure" and "mean maximum pressure" are not the same. "Mean pressure" is probably that of the production run ammo that meets the bullet weight/energy specs.

The pressures that the various NATO countries load their military ammunition to varies.
I have to agree with this statement from Steve C above. I have some
124 gr ball ammo from Portugal with the nato cross on the box and on
the case. Headstamp is FNM 84-7. Clocked at 1141 in the same Brn. HP
that gives 1226 with the WCC 89 ammo. Hard to believe they are
loaded to the same pressure.

I have several boxes of Greek 124gr 9mm that has the circled 'x'. while a bit more robust than winny wb it's not by any measure 'heavy recoil'.
I hesitate to add this but I load 124gr Rem GS slugs over Power Pistol to published data for +P, for my own and 3 nephews 9mm, 2 S&W a Kahr and a CZ. while noticeable it's not 'substantail recoil'. quite a flash though.
however from Carbines (a Marlin Camp, HiPoint and KelTec) the slug comes out of there w/a crack and I'm inclined to say if any more 'power' is needed then get a .357 lever and full-house loads or a 10mm (unsure if Carbine is available?) or maybe the M1 carbine (unsure about that 1).
quite an impact on filled with water milk jugs at 100'.

Not too sure about the other nations, but the Canadian 9mm, while warm isn't what I would consider really hot. We are and have been sending thousands and thousands of rounds down range each year in BHP's that have been in service since 1944-45, year in, year out getting fired. If the rounds were that hot, I doubt they would have lasted this long, with no replacement date in sight!

It's no secret that "9mm NATO" loads vary from country to country. Some use a 115gr. bullet and some run the 124/125 slug. Thing is there are some wicked loads out there, like the CAVIM from Venuzalia and the 2Z or "2Zed" as our British friends call it from England, which did crack slides on both Browning Hi-Powers and Walther P-38s!
Also there is a parts kit issued to "operators"(I hate that term!) who run the M9 due to the worry of excess wear from M882.
Thing is all of the pistols made had to survive proof testing in order to get out the door! My own advice is if said load gives you the heebie jeebies sell it off or destroy it. But I seriouly doubt if one box of the stuff will leave your pistol a rattling hulk.
Plus a 124gr. slug at 1,251 is akin to the Speer Gold Dot 124+P load. And there are gobs of standard pressure 9mm ball out there to practice with, unless your wanting to duplicate the recoil of your carry load. Dale

__________________
"Long live the S&W 3rd. Gen.!"

Here's a link to TM 43-0001-27, ARMY AMMUNITION DATA SHEETS SMALL CALIBER AMMUNITION, Apr 1994. 9mm chapter is Chapter 12.

Lists three 9mm loads (submachine gun at 38,500 psi; M882 for the M9 at 31,175 psi and a proof load at 50,000 psi )