Interesting results from .44 Gold Dot

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Wesprt

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Went out to the range today and shot some 200 grain Speer Gold Dot .44 Short Barrel from my 4'' 29 into water jugs and had something rather unexpected happen. Fellow forum member Vanilla Gorilla tested the same bullet, the same way and with a 4'' barreled 629 several months ago and got near perfect expansion and penetration. (1000 FPS avg IIRC) I tested a few today and the bullets completely fragmented! All that could be found were a multitude of crumb sized bits of jacket and lead core. They were pushing 1050 this time. Has anyone else had problems with these? Has the bullet design changed? That is not acceptable for a defense load to me.
 
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Went out to the range today and shot some 200 grain Speer Gold Dot .44 Short Barrel from my 4'' 29 into water jugs and had something rather unexpected happen. Fellow forum member Vanilla Gorilla tested the same bullet, the same way and with a 4'' barreled 629 several months ago and got near perfect expansion and penetration. (1000 FPS avg IIRC) I tested a few today and the bullets completely fragmented! All that could be found were a multitude of crumb sized bits of jacket and lead core. They were pushing 1050 this time. Has anyone else had problems with these? Has the bullet design changed? That is not acceptable for a defense load to me.
 
That doesn't sound right to me either. I would contact Speer. I'll bet they will want a look at that ammo. If the ammo is defective, please let us on the forum know the lot number.
 
Hard water.



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Beware of water jug testing!

In my informal "Behind the Barn" tests I've found that water most times duplicates absolute maximum expansion. That could explain stripping of the jacket and fragmentation. Should you base your carry load on my opinion? No, like the floppy one said...contact Speer.
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Brassfetcher 44. Special

rd
 
Gold Dots are designed not to shed their core (it's plated on and welded to the bullet's core), or fragment. In fact, they are designed to better withstand the rigors of smashing through auto glass which is harder on bullets than water by far. Something is wrong here. What kind of container was that water in?
 
Are you sure you didn't shoot completely through your test medium and find fragments of "lesser" bullets that you are mistaking for the Gold Dots? I would think that 1050 FPS is not at all strenuous for any 200 gr. Gold Dot. They should be able to hold up to a lot more velocity. I hate to think that the manufacturing process can somehow be cheapened or shortcut to the point that now we have to worry about the quality of the Gold Dot.

Dave Sinko
 
I've water tested lots of Gold Dots and they have NEVER fragmented at any velocity. They may turn inside out, but no breakups. Are you sure you have factory ammo and not some kind of gun show reloads? That bullet performance sounds like some low cost plated hollow points I've heard of.
 
The testing was done with 4 2 liter bottles capped and filled with water. The ammo was factory new bought from Gander Mountain, so no gun show reloads here. I know it's not the most "scientific" method of testing but I've never seen any results from it that were wildy different from gel tests (until now. Most of the time it results in perfectly expanded bullets. One possibility, was it possible .44 special GD's were loaded by accident in .44 mag cases? IIRC the 200 grain special and magnum gold dots were designed to expand at different velocities.

David, all the bottles were new and most of the fragments were found in the second bottle with a few of the larger ones making their way into the 3rd. The 4th was untouched.
 
I could be wrong on this, but I'm thinking the 200 gr. .44 spl. and mag. loads use the same bullet. The .44 mag. is a "managed recoil/medium velocity" type and Speer's website claims it only goes 200 fps. faster than the special.

Of course, you could circumvent the whole issue by using Corbon's .44 magnum 165 grain JHP. That Sierra bullet will give you 1970s 125 gr. .357 style fragmentation with a nice big mushroomed base that will go deep. Corbon lists that load at 1300 fps., but it only got 1250 from my 5" gun. I think my gun is slow, so I think an average 4" gun will probably shoot that fast. At 1250 fps. that Corbon load will yield more muzzle energy than the the Speer load provided the numbers on Speer's website are accurate. I would also trust the Corbon load to have more reliable expansion due to it's higher velocity. However, keep in mind that your rear sight may not go far enough down to zero with 165 gr. bullets! That happened to me, so I had to install a new front sight. Your guess is as good as mine as to which on has milder recoil. Just some food for thought.
 
The reason I ask is that it doesn't seem like a bullet that will expand perfectly at 800 and some odd would be a good choice to push another 200 feet per second in a .44 magnum and expect it to stay together. Hollowpoints are notoriously finicky when it comes to velocity. Too fast and they frag, too slow they become FMJ. I may just stick some UMC or Remmy "Omigods" in there (180 grain SP or JHP). Hell, if someone wants to test some in gel I will send a couple.
 
I have tested Federal 180s in Perma-Gel. The results are posted in this forum. They are not overpenetrators, but have a lot of power..........and recoil. They are not for the meek.

Remington's .357 125 gr. SJHP bullet works well from .38+P/snubby velocities to being launched from a 6" 686 (1600 + fps.). A good modern bullet like that GD will be able to handle a 200 fps. velocity increase. Ask Speer's people if you call them.
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I'm bringing this discussion back to the top, maybe there's some other ideas that haven't been put forth, yet.

I, too, believe the 44 Special and Magnum loads feature the same bullet, and I'm thinking that 1050-1100 is the ragged edge of what they can take (in water, anyways).

Flop-shank, as far as wesprt handling the 180s recoil, well, I'm pretty sure he's already got nerve damage or something, because that boy just ain't right...
 
I have never shot a gold dot 44.
I have shot other gold dots. I know the advertisement, bonded, won't separate, ect.

Uhh. yes they do. Sometimes. want a picture of a few? It doesn't always happen, but sometimes I have em split clean in two.
It's a good bullet, but it's not a super bullet. It will break apart occassionally especially if hitting something hard at fairly high speeds.
 
I too have experienced fragmentation from a Gold Dot in Perma-Gel, but it was a single fragment off of a Buffalo Bore .380 +P. If those Gold Dots are acting like Glasers, something is wrong. A few secondary fragments off the nose can be a very good thing, but there has to be a big piece of bullet base left to go deep. You guys need to compare lot #s and at least one of you needs to call Speer. Something is very wrong here.
Originally posted by Vanilla Gorilla:
I'm bringing this discussion back to the top, maybe there's some other ideas that haven't been put forth, yet.

I, too, believe the 44 Special and Magnum loads feature the same bullet, and I'm thinking that 1050-1100 is the ragged edge of what they can take (in water, anyways).

Flop-shank, as far as wesprt handling the 180s recoil, well, I'm pretty sure he's already got nerve damage or something, because that boy just ain't right...
Click to expand...
I fire 180 gr. Federals in rapid fire strings from my 5" 629-1. they're a handful and yes, they don't exactly tickle by the time you get to the fifth and sixth shot.
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Originally posted by Vanilla Gorilla:

I, too, believe the 44 Special and Magnum loads feature the same bullet, and I'm thinking that 1050-1100 is the ragged edge of what they can take (in water, anyways).
Click to expand...

I e-mailed Speer a while back about their bullets (for handloading), and they replied that the .44spl and .44 mag use different 200 grain bullets, and that they're designed for different velocities. I don't remember any more details or part numbers.
 
My 2007 catalog lists the .44 special bullet as a 200 grain bullet, part #4427, the .44 mag is listed as a 210 grain bullet, part # 4428.
 
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