Gold Dot, Hydra-Shok, HST, legal exposure?

skeeterbait

skeeterbait

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Not wishing to debate the effectiveness of these technologies, they will all stop bad guys. I have noticed the following.

While some Gold Dot packaging says "Personal Protection", others say "The Choice for Law Enforcement"

While some Hydra-Shok packaging says "Personal Defense", others say "Tactical" and "Law Enforcement"

All HST packaging I have seen says "Tactical" and "Law Enforcement"

God forbid that we ever have to use deadly force for self defense, but in the event it ever became necessary, do you see a private citizen ruining their self preservation legal defense through the use of these rounds?

I am considering the likelyhood of a jury that does not know the real purpose of hollow point ammunition and a lawyer telling such a jury that "Mr. X was obviously menacing through his use of ammunition that the manufacturer clearly intended to be used by law enforcement and military personnel."
 
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This is a question about legal experience, possibility and likelihood whose answer probably varies from area to area. I recommend consulting a lawyer in the geographical area you are concerned about, and then considering his advice in light of any other advantages you might see in choosing one ammunition over another.

There are too many non-lawyers on this forum from too many different areas of the country to get anything but a lot of opinions, some correct, some incorrect, about your situation. You will get some food for thought, but you will be no closer to a correct answer to the legal question than you are right now.

You may become convinced that it is a wrong question.

If you really care, see a lawyer.
 
I copy Mas's answer in my classes.

"I just use what the police use" is an acceptable answer, and far less likely to get you into trouble than many others.
 
When I taught at a regional police academy, the answer I used was, "Use what the big guys, i.e., FBI, DHS, NYPD, LAPD, Chicago, your state police/highway patrol, etc., use. These departments have the resources to adequately test and evaluate handgun ammunition. Also, you have to consider price, availablility, and reliability in your handgun. Find the load that meets all of these factors and you should be ready to go.
 
skeeterbait said:
God forbid that we ever have to use deadly force for self defense, but in the event it ever became necessary, do you see a private citizen ruining their self preservation legal defense through the use of these rounds?
Click to expand...

According to Ayoob and others "its the same ammo as used by the police to defend the public and themselves" has always been a good argument against any issue regarding ammunition in a self defense argument. As the police do not or will not admit to using ammunition that's intended to ensure the death of a suspect they may have to shoot that's presumed innocent.
 
Thanks firehouse and others. Great information. Sorry for the redundant question.
 
Steve C said:
According to Ayoob and others "its the same ammo as used by the police to defend the public and themselves" has always been a good argument against any issue regarding ammunition in a self defense argument. As the police do not or will not admit to using ammunition that's intended to ensure the death of a suspect they may have to shoot that's presumed innocent.
Click to expand...


I believe you have to be careful using Ayoob's advice, as good as it is.

In the Harold Fish case in Arizona, a great deal was made of the fact that he used 10mm ammo that was a larger caliber than police standard issue in the area.

If you're going to depend on 'I use what the cops use', to cover your use of hollow points, you may find yourself being tied to the caliber they use as well.


I completely agree this issue can best be answered by a LOCAL lawyer.


For me personally, I use hollow points and, if ever involved in an incident, intend to get a lawyer better than the ones Mr. Fish used.

.
 
Yeah , the term 'hollow point' , along with the nasty names like Black Talon have been villified by the media and will play on the heartstrings of the liberal ignorant wussies in the court of public opinion. Hydra-Shok , Golden Saber , Silvertip (for werewolves and vampires). Some police departments still don't like the term hollow point and that's why Federal came out with the expanding full metal jacket. They don't have that 'dum-dum bullet' stigma to them. Like them 'teflon-tipped hollow-point cop-killer bullets'! BTW , no LEO was ever killed by a KTW! I actually had a cop , during a routine DUI checkpoint , give me noise about the blue nylon coated NyClad rounds I had when I informed him I was legally carrying. He seriously didn't know the diff.

Another reason I use Glaser 'Safety' Slugs.
 
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+1 on shooting what the cops shoot. Ayoob knows his stuff.

Personally, I wouldn't want to explain to a jury why I felt the need to shoot someone with a magnum round.
 
Much depends on where you are. With the current laws in FL no body cares what gun, caliber, bullet, factory or reload, etc. is involved. It's all about was it legal self defense or not. If it was legal it's end of story including civil lawsuits.
 
No. If you shoot somebody it will be a good shoot or not. Type of ammo does not matter. And before someone shouts "Harold Fish", Fish's lawyer was an idiot and his shooting wasn't the most clear cut case of self defense I've ever seen if I remember correctly.

Edit- Also, there isn't a caliber out there that hasn't been used my some police or federal agency somewhere, sometime. Alaska Highway Patrol had .44's, FBI 10mm's, and so on.
 
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LazarusLong said:
No. If you shoot somebody it will be a good shoot or not. Type of ammo does not matter. And before someone shouts "Harold Fish", Fish's lawyer was an idiot and his shooting wasn't the most clear cut case of self defense I've ever seen if I remember correctly.
Click to expand...


Agreed, on all counts. Fish's attorney did not feel the need to refute statements that jurors later claimed had a huge impact on the case.

I'll shoot the dirtbag with an .88 Belchfire SuperMagnum if that's what it takes to make him stop doing what he's doing to harm me.
 
Why should I confine myself to relatively weak ammo designed around the average cop who doesn't give a crap about guns and only shoots when forced to? I shoot every week. My BUG hits as hard as many of their primarys do. I subscribe to the philosophy that you should never go to a gunfight with a handgun if a long gun is available, so it stands to reason that if I can't have a long gun, I want a handgun that acts as much like one as possible. If I'm using the "most powerful weapon that I can shoot well", then I'm using exactly what I was trained to use.
 
Faulkner said:
"Sir, why do you carry a .45?"

"Because they don't make a .46".
Click to expand...

I love that one, it's one of my cowboy/sheriff lines.

"I see you're wearing your pistol tonight, Sheriff. Are you expecting trouble?"

"If I were expecting trouble I would have brought my rifle."
 
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