CCW while dropping off kids @ school

DaveB57 · Sep 11, 2009

Help me through this one...I want to carry legally & I understand the all the no-no's...except the most common application...carrying concealed while droping off /picking up the kids @ school. Idaho statutes state that it is OK while dropping or picking up BUT when I ask a friendly deputy sheriff, she states "ZERO TOLERANCE, no guns on school property" even when we were discussing having the permit. THIS BLOWS ME AWAY, so I send a friendly e-mail to the local sheriff's office for clarification (they give out the Idaho Permits) & they don't respond to my e-mail...

Today I get a letter from the Prosecuting Attorney's Office saying that my question was forwarded to them...& goes on to say that they can't give LEGAL ADVICE to the public, & encourages me to seek the advice of private council regarding Idaho State law...In addition, I may want to consult the Federal Gun Free School Zone Act to see if this federal legislation preempts Idaho Code...

Oh my god, am I the only one that would carry (& have school kids)...(NOT). Are the gun laws that screwed up that I can't get a simple straight answer?

Why would some Anti-Constitutional federal act trump the state law, anyway? Who wishes to OPINE?

Lightfoot4 · Sep 11, 2009

Good luck. In North Carolina, it's no guns on school property, no exceptions. Really irks me because i often take my kids to school on my way out, which means I have to leave my firearm at home.

photoman · Sep 11, 2009

The federal gun free school zone wording says that if you have a license to carry, you are exempt from prosecution in the state where you legally reside...or something to that effect. Local and state laws...eh...who knows? It's different everywhere you go.

Look it up for yourself as I am not a lawyer, I don't play one on TV and I don't give legal advice on the internet.

ChadW · Sep 12, 2009

Are you planning on doing something that will cause a LEO to come over to your car and ask you if you're carrying? Probably not. If you're dropping off the kids.. you're in your car in the parking lot. Just carry it and don't make a big deal about it if you really want to. I wouldn't go into the school though.

If I were to be briefly passing onto school property, it's unlikely I'd stop off at home first to store my gun.

bmx · Sep 12, 2009

DaveB57 said:
Help me through this one...I want to carry legally & I understand the all the no-no's...except the most common application...carrying concealed while droping off /picking up the kids @ school. Idaho statutes state that it is OK while dropping or picking up BUT when I ask a friendly deputy sheriff, she states "ZERO TOLERANCE, no guns on school property" even when we were discussing having the permit. THIS BLOWS ME AWAY, so I send a friendly e-mail to the local sheriff's office for clarification (they give out the Idaho Permits) & they don't respond to my e-mail...

Today I get a letter from the Prosecuting Attorney's Office saying that my question was forwarded to them...& goes on to say that they can't give LEGAL ADVICE to the public, & encourages me to seek the advice of private council regarding Idaho State law...In addition, I may want to consult the Federal Gun Free School Zone Act to see if this federal legislation preempts Idaho Code...

Oh my god, am I the only one that would carry (& have school kids)...(NOT). Are the gun laws that screwed up that I can't get a simple straight answer?

Why would some Anti-Constitutional federal act trump the state law, anyway? Who wishes to OPINE?

Contact the state Attorney General's office or the Attorney General himself and ask the question. This office is the people's representive pertaining to law and the clarification or official interpretation of laws & statutes.

It doesn't help the OP but in Oklahoma a person can CCW while droping off or picking up students, but cannot leave a firearm in a parked vehicle on school (grade, high school or private) property if the vehicle is left unattended, and you cannot CCW into a school.

Bailey Boat · Sep 12, 2009

"Are the gun laws that screwed up that I can't get a simple straight answer?"

Yep.... Plus, that way the laws can change and be applied in any manner, at anytime THEY so choose..... "If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with bulls**t"..... Sad but true....

snakeman32 · Sep 12, 2009

Like bmx said, contact your state attorney generals office. They should answer any and all of your questions regarding interpretation of the CCW laws. In Kansas you can CCW in your vehicle on school property. If you have to go into the school you can leave your weapon in the vehicle as long as it is not in plain sight. If I have to go to the school to pick up nieces or nephews I just keep my gun in the console untill I am off of school property.

snakeman

photoman · Sep 12, 2009

bmx said:
Contact the state Attorney General's office or the Attorney General himself and ask the question. This office is the people's representive pertaining to law and the clarification or official interpretation of laws & statutes.

That doesn't work in Texas. The AG will only respond to "official" requests for clarification on legal issues.

snakeman32 · Sep 12, 2009

The only other thing I can think of besides seeking legal advice from a lawyer is to maybe contact DPS and see what they say about it.

snakeman

photoman · Sep 12, 2009

You might want to look around on the internet for a state specific conceal carry forum. In Texas, we have an excellent CHL forum. Throwing all caution about legal advice from the internet aside, it is a great place to find information regarding local and state conceal carry laws.

OKFC05 · Sep 12, 2009

bmx said:
Contact the state Attorney General's office or the Attorney General himself and ask the question. This office is the people's representive pertaining to law and the clarification or official interpretation of laws & statutes.

It doesn't help the OP but in Oklahoma a person can CCW while droping off or picking up students, but cannot leave a firearm in a parked vehicle on school (grade, high school or private) property if the vehicle is left unattended, and you cannot CCW into a school.

Sorry, Drew Edmondson (OK AG) does not give official opinions to private individuals, only state agencies. The AGs in most states have a similar policy, so I'm not surprised at the Idaho AG's answer.

Fortunately, the OK statute is plainly and clearly written.

My personal opinion is tht the Idaho statute is also fairly clear, but IANAL.

coach22 · Sep 12, 2009

You have a permit. You are "dropping off and picking up." You are in your car. There would be no probable cause to search you. If some lunatic tried to harm any of the children and you had the ability to protect or save any of them from harm, you would be a hero in the eyes of anyone in our country. I am not a lawyer, I am a father.

TheKySharpshooter · Sep 16, 2009

coach22 said:
You have a permit. You are "dropping off and picking up." You are in your car. There would be no probable cause to search you. If some lunatic tried to harm any of the children and you had the ability to protect or save any of them from harm, you would be a hero in the eyes of anyone in our country. I am not a lawyer, I am a father.

Very well put.

It's really funny that before all the major school shootings started about 11 or 12 years ago, most of us students would have shotguns or rifles in our trucks at school, most of the time in a gun rack in the rear window. I always had my 870 in my Bronco in the rear seat, and one time when I was in 7th grade I had gotten up early and did some shooting with my .22. I left the rifle at home but forgot to take the handful of ammo out of my pocket because I was kind of cutting it close on time. At school I reached into my pocket and accidentally pulled out a couple of rounds that dropped onto the floor in front of my teacher. She just laughed and asked if I'd got anything. How things change so quickly. The same thing now would probably get you expelled and the police called.

Hoplophile · Sep 16, 2009

You're legal. Period. Relevant section of 18-3302D quoted below.

<http://www.legislature.idaho.gov/idstat/Title18/T18CH33SECT18-3302D.htm>

Exceptions:
(d) Any adult over eighteen (18) years of age and not enrolled in a public or private elementary or secondary school who has lawful possession of a firearm or other deadly or dangerous weapon, secured and locked in his vehicle in an unobtrusive, nonthreatening manner;
(e) A person who lawfully possesses a firearm or other deadly or dangerous weapon in a private vehicle while delivering minor children, students or school employees to and from school or a school activity;

cshoff · Sep 17, 2009

DaveB57 said:
Help me through this one...I want to carry legally & I understand the all the no-no's...except the most common application...carrying concealed while droping off /picking up the kids @ school. Idaho statutes state that it is OK while dropping or picking up BUT when I ask a friendly deputy sheriff, she states "ZERO TOLERANCE, no guns on school property" even when we were discussing having the permit. THIS BLOWS ME AWAY, so I send a friendly e-mail to the local sheriff's office for clarification (they give out the Idaho Permits) & they don't respond to my e-mail...

Today I get a letter from the Prosecuting Attorney's Office saying that my question was forwarded to them...& goes on to say that they can't give LEGAL ADVICE to the public, & encourages me to seek the advice of private council regarding Idaho State law...In addition, I may want to consult the Federal Gun Free School Zone Act to see if this federal legislation preempts Idaho Code...

Oh my god, am I the only one that would carry (& have school kids)...(NOT). Are the gun laws that screwed up that I can't get a simple straight answer?

Why would some Anti-Constitutional federal act trump the state law, anyway? Who wishes to OPINE?

You are definitely going to have to look into your state laws that regulate CCW. As far as the federal law is concerned, here is the Federal Gun Free Schools Act:

SEC. 4141. GUN-FREE REQUIREMENTS.

(a) SHORT TITLE- This subpart may be cited as the Gun-Free Schools Act'.
(b) REQUIREMENTS-
(1) IN GENERAL- Each State receiving Federal funds under any title of this Act shall have in effect a State law requiring local educational agencies to expel from school for a period of not less than 1 year a student who is determined to have brought a firearm to a school, or to have possessed a firearm at a school, under the jurisdiction of local educational agencies in that State, except that such State law shall allow the chief administering officer of a local educational agency to modify such expulsion requirement for a student on a case-by-case basis if such modification is in writing.
(2) CONSTRUCTION- Nothing in this subpart shall be construed to prevent a State from allowing a local educational agency that has expelled a student from such a student's regular school setting from providing educational services to such student in an alternative setting.
(3) DEFINITION- For the purpose of this section, the term firearm' has the same meaning given such term in section 921(a) of title 18, United States Code.
(c) SPECIAL RULE- The provisions of this section shall be construed in a manner consistent with the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act.
(d) REPORT TO STATE- Each local educational agency requesting assistance from the State educational agency that is to be provided from funds made available to the State under any title of this Act shall provide to the State, in the application requesting such assistance —
(1) an assurance that such local educational agency is in compliance with the State law required by subsection (b); and
(2) a description of the circumstances surrounding any expulsions imposed under the State law required by subsection (b), including —
(A) the name of the school concerned;
(B) the number of students expelled from such school; and
(C) the type of firearms concerned.
(e) REPORTING- Each State shall report the information described in subsection (d) to the Secretary on an annual basis.
(f) DEFINITION- For the purpose of subsection (d), the term school' means any setting that is under the control and supervision of the local educational agency for the purpose of student activities approved and authorized by the local educational agency.
(g) EXCEPTION- Nothing in this section shall apply to a firearm that is lawfully stored inside a locked vehicle on school property, or if it is for activities approved and authorized by the local educational agency and the local educational agency adopts appropriate safeguards to ensure student safety.

Now, since that probably didn't tell you what you wanted to know, you might find these Federal Statutes more relevant. I took the liberty to bold and underline the portion you may find especially useful:

USC § 921. Definitions
(25) The term “school zone” means—
(A) in, or on the grounds of, a public, parochial or private school; or
(B) within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a public, parochial or private school.
(26) The term “school” means a school which provides elementary or secondary education, as determined under State law.

USC § 922. Unlawful acts (q) (2)
(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
(iii) that is—
(I) not loaded; and
(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;
(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;
(v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual;
(vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or
(vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school authorities.

Double-O-Dave · Sep 18, 2009

Dave,

Have you spoken with some of your local CHL instructors for their opinions? While they may or may not be lawyers, they should have some experience in this area. In the great state of Texas, it was made very clear in our training class that as long as you did not enter the school BUILDING, you were okay. They emphasized that as long as you were within the law, even covered areas, such as car ports or bus porches. were not considered part of the school building. I have always been very careful to follow the law, and on more than one occasion, I've had to go back to my car to discretely remove my pistols and lock them in my car, and then enter the school building to conduct my business. I seriously doubt that anyone knew I was carrying, but the law is the law, and I do not want to lose my CHL privileges.

Best of luck,

Dave

38-44HD45 · Sep 18, 2009

Double-O-Dave said:
Dave,

Have you spoken with some of your local CHL instructors for their opinions? While they may or may not be lawyers, they should have some experience in this area. In the great state of Texas, it was made very clear in our training class that as long as you did not enter the school BUILDING, you were okay. They emphasized that as long as you were within the law, even covered areas, such as car ports or bus porches. were not considered part of the school building. I have always been very careful to follow the law, and on more than one occasion, I've had to go back to my car to discretely remove my pistols and lock them in my car, and then enter the school building to conduct my business. I seriously doubt that anyone knew I was carrying, but the law is the law, and I do not want to lose my CHL privileges.

Best of luck,

Dave

Dave is correct. The Texas statute clearly states that "premises" means buildings and portions of buildings, not parking lots, parking garages, sidewalks, etc. Read your state's statute, and if it still is not clear to you, ask a private attorney, not a DA. DAs, in my experience, don't know much about CHL law, anyway, even if they could give you advice. And LEOs, with a few notable exceptions, know even less, so your sheriff's advice is not surprising.

I'm a CHL Instructor in TX, and a lawyer, but keep in mind, I'm not giving legal advice here, just commentary, worth every penny you're paying for it.

As for the federal Gun Free School Zones Act, since you have a CHL, you are exempt, by the express language of the statute. At a firearms law seminar where I spoke a couple of years ago in Dallas, an ATF attorney attending the seminar confirmed that even ATF knows that, so I'd not waste much time with that piece of legislative wizardry.

BrianE · Sep 18, 2009

I never carry on school grounds when I pick up. Even when LEOs come to pick up their kids, they are not carrying (leave duty belts in vehicle), so that tells me I shouldnt be either.

J274895 · Sep 18, 2009

OK, guys can we please put this debate and supposition to rest? It took me all of about 15 seconds to do a Google search for "Idaho Gun Laws". I immediately hit upon the State of Idaho statutes governing the exact question at hand.

Idaho Statutes

The statute is only slightly vague, but I interpret it this way:

If you are over the age of 18, and you can lawfully posess a firearm in the State of Idaho, then you are perfectly legal in possessing a firearm while dropping off your kids at school as long as you remain inside your car. I furthermore interpret the law to mean that once you step OUT of your car with the firearm still in your possession, you are then in violation of the law.

This isn't rocket science guys. Just took a little research.

Kollin · Sep 18, 2009

This will of course vary from state to state. Like the above post, check your local laws. Here in OR you are legit with a permit.

CCW while dropping off kids @ school

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