On YouTube... Seems like the guy has no bias. I'm going to try this myself and see how the 9, 40 and 45 compare on my range!


YouTube - Penetration Test & Cronograph 9mm, 40s&w, 45acp

I'm sure he had fun, but absolutely useless. Nobody in their right mind loads FMJ's for defense, and nobody uses books in place of body armor....so there is no usefull real world info to be gleaned here!

Terrible experimental design, and what did he expect, shooting a shotgun except to destroy his chronograph. I hope this guy isn't an aircraft mechanic!

Sir, if you throw out the shotgun (which the guy appears to have added just for fun), the experiment's design actually was quite good. Notice that he used the same ammo type for each gun, similar guns as far as possible, and the same test medium for all. That is, he reduced the variables as far as possible so that the only thing being tested was the cartridges themselves.

Not bad design at all, and the results have comparative value among the rounds tested--the .45 penetrated X far, the 9mm Y far, and the .40 Z far. The same design could easily be applied to different ammo types or penetration media.

The test would have more value and statistical validity if he'd fired more rounds of each cartridge, but hey, it's just a 5-minute YouTube video, not a months-long deal in Martin Fackler's lab.

Oh, and BTW, some people do still carry FMJ for self-defense. Some states (notably New Jersey) ban most types of modern defense loads, and other folks need more penetration than a hollowpoint typically provides.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.

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Wishin' don't make it so.

For fun, there's nothing wrong with his test. Otherwise it means nothing.

Why does anyone need more penetration with FMJ? The debate between FMJ and hollow points has been argued at length. But it is my opinion that FMJ for self defense is grossly irresponsible.

No legal or logical reason to use FMJ when products like Corbon Powrball and Federal EFMJ exist.

So with bullets of the same basic design, the bullet with the highest sectional density penetrated the most?
Well, DUH!

It says nothing about the calibers per se, just about the choice of sectional densities (weight per unit frontal area).

You can get the same relative results using 3 different bullet weights in the same caliber. That's why the OHP chose 180gr in their .40 S&W: more penetration than the lighter bullets, like 135 and 155.

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Science plus Art

Well, not unless you're aiming to do self-defense against 2- and 4-legged things with the same gun at the same time.

Everyone has an opinion. Occasionally we will notice an opinion that is actually supported by empirical fact and/or real-world experience.

I must admit to being "grossly irresponsible", based upon your stated opinion. I have used quite a bit of FMJ ammunition for self defense, in both military combat and law enforcement work. By "used" I don't just mean going to the range and popping a few caps; I mean "used" as in the actual application of lethal force against armed and hostile human targets.

My gross irresponsibility seems to push me toward combinations of weapons and ammunition that I know will be absolutely reliable, every time, without question. Clearing huts and tunnels in Vietnam I found that this combination was provided by the US M1911A-1 pistol loaded with 230-grain FMJ ammunition. A modest enhancement was provided by using tracer-ball ammo for low-light close combat situations. I never had a single "customer" complain about my "grossly irresponsible" selections.

Over the following 40 years I tried many other ammunition types, from the original SuperVel's, to the various lightweight hollowpoints at higher velocities, to the Winchester Black Talons (remember the news reports on those?), and a variety of handloads. Some have been good, others have not. None of them has provided the level of absolute reliability in loading, feeding, firing, extracting, ejecting, and accuracy in every one of my pistols (but I only have 28 of the 1911-type, ranging from pre-WW1 to 1990's vintage, so I can't say for sure that every single pistol will perform the same way, at least not quite yet).

My primary defensive pistol is always a 1911-type, and I am absolutely confident with FC-Match 230-grain ball ammunition. Tracers are a bit difficult to come by these days, but my night sights help to make up the difference.

Your comments clearly indicate that your mind is made up, and your opinions will not change. I don't expect you to agree with me. But when you throw around terms like "grossly irresponsible" there should be a smile on your face, maybe a fresh round of frosty long-necks ready.

Well said Mr. GunLeather.

I did not post this to incite a caliber war, nor a jacket argument. I think the video is rather well done, and the viewer can take what he wants from it. Personally I am going to do something similar with several different calibers and bullet types just for my own knowledge... Just to see what happens.

Funny story, the first day out with my .357 (my Lord, it must have been 25 years ago...) I was shootin' and acting all cowboy like, when I happened across a chain, a swing set chain actually, on our farm. Now Dad had built the swing set and the chain was rather stout, but I had seen how gunslingers in the movies can blast chains and steel bars, padlocks and all sorts of things, so I was fully prepared to blast this chain to smithereens and make repairs afterwards.

I was quite dismayed to see the chain absorb blast after blast from my powerful .357 without seeming to have any effect at all on its integrity. I had been duped by sensationalism and it was a lesson I will not forget.

So when I see tests like these, done by an average Joe, with common articles, I enjoy them for their wholesomeness. I also learn from them. Let's not argue about what is shown, but add input that helps promote understanding.

Does anyone know why the 9mm and .40 broke up in the book while the .45 stayed mostly intact?

And why does the book seem to move more from the .45 round when it really penetrated the least?

Thank you for any input, I'm just learning here!!!

If you Google Sir Issac Newton, he will be able to provide you an answer to both questions.

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MotorCityGun

In my 625-8 revolvers,I use the 200-230 grain semi wadcutter for defense and the put a nice bigger hole but not as big as my S&W .500 EBG gun.

i'm with you lobo...i have run plenty of fmj in applications just such as yours...that and on combat courses as well

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SWCA#2208
KK4EMO

Yes, there is not a mystery here.
Go back and read my first post on similar bullets penetrating in proportion to their sectional densities (weight per unit frontal area). It is a well-known ballistic phenomenon. No matter what the tester thought he was doing, he was merely demonstrating sectional density, not calibers.

The three bullets were the same construction, but the faster moving 9mm and .40 produced more material stress on the bullets on impact (specific impulse) and the bullets came apart. The slower moving .45 did not stress the bullet material as much when it impacted, and the bullet stayed together. Very much as expected. It is even more evident in rifle bullets, where lightly constructed varmit bullets can fly apart on a blade of grass they hit at 4000 fps.

What made the book move is momentum which is equal to mass times speed. You hear a lot about bullet energy, but it is momentum that transfers on impact. USPSA shooters know this and prefer heavier bulets to knock down the steel poppers.

If you want to learn more about projectiles, take a basic physics course.
Then you will really learn how it works. That's all physics is: learning how the universe works.

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Science plus Art

Mr Ray, I stand by what I said whole heartedly. I won't budge an inch. But, I will throw in a smiley just for you.

If this guy had some good solid scientific training on how to set up an expiriment this whole thing would've looked quite different, or perhaps he'd've seen the utter futility of it and just abandoned the whole project early on.

I think I have to throw out all my pistol preferences and knowledge and develop a concealed carry slug gun with a 27" bbl and an IWB holster to fit it.

Then I can dig out those dangerous old college text books...


As a one-to-one demonstration it was fine. Shows what everyone would have answered if I asked the question "Which of these bullets would penetrate furthest into this text book?" Or "Which of these bullets would hit the text book harder?" But not much more information comes from this.

You could answer the question "Which of these weapons would give you a headache when I hit you with them, a pencil or a baseball bat?" without me actually hitting you.

If you wanted to answer the question "What is the optimum bullet design (size, shape, weight, speed) that would have the optimum penetration into [insert some media]?" It would take a lot more effort, a lot more testing. That would be a scientific experiment. Different back stops of media, different distances, different bullet types, different bbl lengths, different powder loads, and so on. I used to do this sort of thing for a living in manufacturing settings - not bullet designs but process and product improvements.

But since we already have human preferences and tendencies of multiple brands of multiple calibers of multiple designs with multiple uses, all of which give varied results depending upon their uses, the whole discussion is moot, as far as I am concerned. But opinions vary widely so there will always be someone trying to prove something.

I might as well make a video of me throwing bullets at pigs; the results would be just as important to me as which bullet kills a text book best.

Oh, sorry this is long, not too busy today.

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Marty 4513TSW 13-1 642 60-10

Well I'll admit I'm a stoopid man. Please explain the difference between momentum and energy, because I always thought momentum is a vectored value of energy and in this situation would be the same.

And please explain the difference between a 100 grain bullet hitting a steel target at 1400 fps and a 200 grain bullet hitting at 700 fps so I can understand why heavier bullets knock down targets better than light bullets. I would think the momentum of the two projectiles is the same and the resulting force imposed on a steel target would be the same.

I do understand how a book will receive a larger impulse being hit by a larger diameter bullet versus a small diameter bullet even if the momentum values are equal, as the resulting force on the book is spread over a longer period of time by a lesser diameter bullet.

Learn something here every day....

Thanks for posting. I enjoyed the video. Just ignore the resident elbows, they apparently have no idea how they come across!

That's an awfully bold statement. Would you care to expound on it a bit?

Well - I carry a Kimber Utra Carry II in 45acp with Corbon 185 Grain DPX +P Hollow Points. I read an FBI Blog recently about the 2006 Pennsylvania shooting involving a BG and three LEOs. The officers were using Glock 22s w/ .40 Speer 180 Grain Gold Dot Hollow Points. The BG was wearing a down jacket and took one round in the left arm, one in the throat, and five in the chest and abdomen. According to the ME, none of the rounds penetrated over 1" and none caused incapacitation. Makes me wonder some times about my ammo choice and about alternating some FMJs in the clip. It is a great read and has some very detailed (Warning: and graphic) photos of the BG. If anyone would like it, send me your email address and i'll send it to you in PDF. I did enjoy the youtube video and always learn from the folks on this forum. - jerry

How in the world did a .40 to the neck and abdomen, well anywhere actually, only penetrate an inch? We've seen HP .40's go through 5" and more of solid wood, gelatin, water jugs, you name it...

I'm not doubting you, but it sure makes you wonder if you should carry FMJ's.... Even in a .40 or .45.

Not my investigation or medical examiner report and I was no there. Here's a quote from the report. PM me your email address if you'd like to read the entire document. I can only assume that what the BG was wearing also impacted the round to the throat. My wife carries a Glock 27 and it seems potent.

"Officers fired on the subject and hit him in the left arm, completely shattering the bone. He was
also hit five times in the chest and abdomen. All rounds penetrated less than 1". All of the rounds
expanded fully but did not cause incapacitation due to the lack of penetration. According to the
Medical Examiner, none of the rounds caused any life threatening injuries. The subject also
received one round into the front of his throat, it penetrated less than 1" as well. The Medical
Examiner stated that the recovered rounds were in pristine condition (still had rifling marks on
them).
• The subject was wearing a down jacket at the time of the incident. He was finally taken down after
receiving rounds from an M-4 .223, with Hornady Tap 55 gr ballistic tip rounds and Hornady Tap 72
gr. Hollow Points."

But the report says he was shot with .40 cal rounds?

I have no dog in this fight, but I would venture to say that using hollowpoints might be considered safer (more responsible?) in an urban environment from a richochet/exit standpoint...and it also seems that Ray did just fine getting back here with nothing but fmjs...and we're thankful for that.

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Thirty characters. Exactly...

Okay, I read the report, but it clearly states that 'This is what information is being reported on websites' and the report was to clear the issue up. From the report:

Stemmed from apparently inaccurate initial
information from Coroner and/or Medical
Examiner.
• Resulted in a belief by Police officials that
.40 S&W ammunition failed and .223 ammunition
“saved the day”.
• “Snowball” effect resulted in numerous phone
calls/emails to DSU and BRF which questioned
the performance of FBI .40 S&W service
ammunition.

• Six .40 S&W rounds, five which expanded, were
recovered on autopsy.
• It is impossible for .40 S&W 180 gr. JHP
ammunition to expand with only 1 in. or less
penetration in a human body.

There is plenty of inaccurate information
regarding ballistics/terminal performance
disseminated on web forums, even those which are
dedicated as LE only.
• The .40 S&W ammunition did not fail in this
incident.
• The performance of the .223 TAP ammunition,
although consistent with manufacturer’s claims,
did not perform terminally as this Police
Department expected.

Lessons Learned
• Determined individuals can sustain many
gunshot wounds in areas that produce great
pain and continue to fight a long time, even
without the aid of drugs or alcohol.
• Shot placement is everything in a gunfight
and always the key to stopping a threat
effectively.

The summary:
Results of Speer 180 gr. Gold Dot satisfy
FBI standards for terminal performance.
• Results of Hornady 55gr. and 75 gr. TAP
do not satisfy FBI standards for terminal
performance.

1. Momentum is mass times speed.
2. Kinetic energy of a projectile is 1/2 mass times speed squared. They are not the same. Most laymen have trouble dealing intuitively with non-linear (squared) functions.

3. In a collision, momentum is transfered and conserved, energy is not. Ever see the desk toy with the five steel balls hanginging from a frame? Pull back one ball , turn it loose and one ball flies out from the opposite end. Pull back two balls and turn them loose, and two balls fly out from the opposite end. Conservation of momentum.

4. Theoretically in your example they would be equal, but in a practical firearm of the type used in USPSA, a 200 gr bullet at 700 fps is easy to achieve, while it is difficult to get a 100 gr bullet going 1400 fps in a legal USPSA pistol. By the way, major power factor is 165000, so that 200gr bullet would need to be traveling 825 fps, and a 100gr bullet would need 1650fps to make major: 1650 is not achieveable in a typical USPSA handgun.
Major power in 9mm is prohibited for safety reasons in every division except Open, and they don't use 100gr bullets even in Open. Minor power of 125000 is normal for 9mm.

So while armchair theorizing may sound reasonable, in practical firearms a heavy bullet at moderate speeds is preferred in a USPSA handgun and a light bullet going uber supersonic is impractical.
Besides, the high energy of that 1650fps bullet would start blowing holes in my steel plates at pistol ranges. That's why we don't let AR shooters use the pistol plate range. Remember, energy is proportional to speed squared!

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Science plus Art

Newton's second law (Fnet = m • a) stated that the acceleration of an object is directly proportional to the net force acting upon the object and inversely proportional to the mass of the object. When combined with the definition of acceleration (a = change in velocity / time), the following equalities result.

F=m*a=m*Δv/t

Or F=m*Δv/t

If both sides of the above equation are multiplied by the quantity t, a new equation results.

F*t = m*Δv

This equation represents one of two primary principles to be used in the analysis of collisions. To truly understand the equation, it is important to understand its meaning in words.
It could be said that the force times the time equals the mass times the change in velocity. In physics, the quantity Force • time is known as impulse. And since the quantity m•v is the momentum, the quantity m•Δv must be the change in momentum. The equation really says that the

Impulse = Change in momentum

The physics of collisions are governed by the laws of momentum. The equation above is known as the impulse-momentum change equation. The law can be expressed this way:

In a collision, an object experiences a force for a specific amount of time that results in a change in momentum. The result of the force acting for the given amount of time is that the object's mass either speeds up or slows down (or changes direction). The impulse experienced by the object equals the change in momentum of the object. In equation form, F • t = m • Δ v.


In a collision, objects experience an impulse; the impulse causes and is equal to the change in momentum.


The momentum change = mass*velocity change.

If we accept this as true, then halving the mass and doubling the velocity results in the same momentum and by default, impulse.

Sir Issac (Newton), is that you? You're bringing back (vague) memories of my college physics course.

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MotorCityGun