Last night I had my first traffic stop/encounter with a LEO since getting my carry permit. Me, the wife, and my 20 year old daughter had been out furniture shopping. Just about a quarter of a mile from home there is a state highway intersection. As we approached I saw the blues and figured it was someone getting a ticket. We were speculating about what was going on when I realized there were 4 cars and multiple officers at the intersection. As I stopped an officer approached, introduced himself and said they were checking for license, registration, and insurance. I made some wise crack that I wasn’t sure if I had any of those things, pulled out my wallet and went to digging. About that time I realized my daughter, in her attempt to help me, was opening the glove box and was fixing to have a hand full of my truck gun. I quickly & firmly told her to stop moving and finished the sentence to the officer with “I have a carry permit and she is just about to put her hands all over *one* of my guns to get the registration”. He just chuckled and said no problem; you’ve done what you’re supposed to. I told him I was gonna move the pistol to the dash so she could dig for paper work. “No problem” he says. He took a quick look at the requested documents (didn’t even check my CC permit) and wished me a safe journey.

I told my daughter not to be so fast to help me out next time. I was very pleased with the demeanor of the officer and his response to me being armed.

Glad to see the officer handled everything appropriately and responsibly. Good example of how most officers I personally know would behave, though there are a few that are hostile to find that they are in the presence of an armed citizen.

__________________
Just the opinion of a kid

It's a good thing you weren't in downtown Atlanta. The cop would probably have had you and your daughter face down at gun point in the dirt or on concrete while he ran a check on you and your gun permit. I haven't experienced that kind of harassment myself because I avoid that area like the 7 year itch, but quite a few GFL (GA Firearms License) holders allegedly have. Our GFL allows open or concealed carry and any law abiding civilian can legally have a gun anywhere in his/her vehicle without a GFL. However, the Metro Atlanta LE departments and the entire city government is adamantly opposed to any kind of carry whether with or without a GFL. According to what I have read online at Georgia Packing Org by GFL holders who live or work in that metro area, you will be hassled by LE personnel if they see a gun or even suspect that you may be carrying one. OTOH, up here in the north GA mountains where I live the local LE agencies either support civilian carry with a GFL or at least don't oppose it to the extent that they would hassle GFL holders for carrying a gun or just for spite.

Notice: Some of what I wrote in re Atlanta metro area LE is based primarily on hearsay and unverified allegations, not my own personal experience. So take it for what it's worth as such.

I work in a nasty section of town (North St Louis) and there is a heavy police presence all around the area........it's sorely needed. The local cops are VERY happy to have other armed officers working in the area, we've taken down a few of the local miscreants, including some local gangsta's who were involved in a shootout on our worksite last year.

I asked one of them how he felt about Missouri's CCW laws, and he was very supportive of local citizens exercising their right to self-protection. The cops in the bad areas learn pretty quickly how to tell the good folks from the bad folks, and they're happy to know there are armed citizens around.

Conversely, in other, less crime-ridden areas of the St Louis area (including where I used to work), police have far less to do, so they have time to run a lot of traffic enforcement and some of them have apparently been using traffic stops to harass lawful CCW holders. I've heard horror stories from several people about how they were detained after professing to CCW, officers separated them from their weapons and ran the serial numbers thru NCIC to check and see if they were stolen. None were, and the drivers were eventually cut loose, after a 15-30 minute delay. Having worked with many of those same cops, I know that many of them considered civilians to be stupid, untrustworthy, and too incompetent to be trusted with weapons. As a former trainer I saw many of those same cops have ND's in the range, sweep each other (and me) with muzzles a dozen times a day, and accidentally shoot out overhead range lights with shotguns more than once.

While I'm a fan of Law Enforcement, the blatant harassment of CCW holders really bothers me. I've worked for anti-gun administrators before, and the problem isn't just rogue officers abusing their authority, quite often such activity is sanctioned and encouraged by those in power.

I have a large number of relatives in Atlanta and have been stopped twice there. Never had a problem at all. The officers did as they should, were very polite and I deserved the stops. I did not get tickets but warnings.

There are incompetent officers on any large department but they are certainly few in number.

Rule:
Never have your papers where you keep the gun.

AFS

In my wallet stacked in this order. Drivers license, Concealed permit, vehicle registration, & insurance card. Everything in one stack.

__________________
TDR911 Sigma Laser Systems

I am so sick of these threads.

You typically have an OP relating a positive or negative experience involving their CCW and a stop by LE, no problem there, but then people use that as a springboard to jump up and start posting hearsay.

I'm3rd says, "It's a good thing you weren't in downtown Atlanta. The cop would probably have had you and your daughter face down at gun point in the dirt or on concrete while he ran a check on you and your gun permit." A father and his young-adult daughter at GUN POINT in the dirt? I'm thinking wow, what's happened to this guy? Then I'm3rd immediately says, "I haven't experienced that kind of harassment myself. . ." Okay, so why besmirch the reputation of an agency with a sweeping generalization that you haven't ever experienced one time or know about beyond anecdotal hearsay evidence? And then I'm3rd authoritatively write about the the attitudes of elected officials in Atlanta, and what they ostensibly encourage as a matter of police conduct, "the entire city government is adamantly opposed to any kind of carry." Then, and this is the kicker, I'm3rd posts, "Some of what I wrote in re Atlanta metro area LE is based primarily on hearsay and unverified allegations, not my own personal experience." Are you kidding me?

Then PappaJohn428 comes along and says, "I've heard horror stories from several people about how they were detained after professing to CCW, officers separated them from their weapons and ran the serial numbers thru NCIC to check and see if they were stolen." More hearsay posting. Look, I've never ever seen in pappajohn428's words, "blatant harassment" of CCW holders, and I'm not going to besmirch an agency because, "I've heard stories."

Hearsay is bad enough. But when the hearsay is anecdotal, and those anecdotes are used in order to make sweeping judgements and characterizations of a larger body of people or an agency that a handful of stories by themselves could never support, it is unjustifiable because it runs a high if not probable risk of of being fiction. When it's done on a public forum it is reckless.

Three weeks ago or so in a poll of people who'd had problems with the S&W lock, the owner of this site admonished everyone to post actual experiences not what they had heard from someone else. That's pretty good counsel.

Cops are people, too
Some are good, some are bad. I have relatives like that....I just pray if I get stopped it's by someone like the one that spoke with you.

I'm glad you had a reasonable experience. All the cops I've talked to say that as long as you aren't trying anything funny or trying to hide anything, they won't have an issue with you.

__________________
Freedom isn't free.

Dang, who let the drama lama out? Gun guy is always the first to scream freedom of guns, freedom to carry, freedom to do anything with gun whatsoever.
What about freedom to write a dang thread without somebody have to go all 3rd person speculating about what somebody might say.
If somebody wants to write about a traffic stop within the forum guide lines, who is anybody to say he can't or start off a response with "I am so sick of these threads". maybe were all sick of your threads but were not in business of bring people down.

__________________
US Navy 1989-1994 Seabees BU3

Well, as you've been a member here for just over a couple of months, I'd like to welcome you and respectfully let you know that there's this anti-leo low-grade fever on this forum to the point that it is the only profession that under the site's usage rules bans, "General LEO Bashing" (http://smith-wessonforum.com/announc...ing-rules.html). Why would that be necessary?

I may be being over sensitive, but for whatever reason, people love to post in the way I complained about, I believe that was my first complaint, and if you trace threads where LEO's are the topic, they often have to be closed by a Site Administrator. Here's one from just last week: I will never tell another officer I'm carrying again.

Point well taken.

Wow. Good thing I got in before they started THAT ****.

__________________
Get off my lawn.

So let me get this straight.........posting what my friends and coworkers tell me is "just" hearsay, so it should just be ignored? Would it be better if they wrote it down? Maybe had it notarized?

Do you hang around with a bunch of pathological liars? I work with, and deal with people I can trust with my life, but I guess I should ignore anything they tell me, because they're probably lying, is that it? If it didn't happen to me it's apparently all a load of BS.

Never mind. You seem to have missed the point.

I would love to see the dash cam video from the complainers' encounters with police. I am sure they did NOTHING at all to sour the encounter with police...

__________________
Proud anachronism

Your attitude and demeanor have a great deal to do with the tone and outcome of any contact with the police. If I am angry about being stopped, or about something else completely, the officer invariably picks up on it, and the encounter never goes well.

I pretty much stopped getting tickets when I learned to check my attitude and to project an air of affability and calm. I can't say for sure, but I think having a CCW permit may also have helped in my encounters with the police. It comes up when they run my name. I can think of a couple of occasions where I might easily have come away with a big ugly citation, but instead concluded the encounter quickly and with a cordial tone.

I agree!. I've had one ticket since moving to Washington 10 years ago. It was deserved. I have also been stopped and warned. When stopped, I roll down my window and place my hands on the wheel. I inform the officer I have a permit,that I am carrying, and ask how would HE like to handle it. Invariably, I have been asked what I am carrying, where I am carrying it at, and am thanked for telling him. I have never been asked to remove or show the officer my weapon.

I believe that because I have my CC permit and was carrying at the time, I have missed out on 2 citations, that I definately deserved. I treated the officer with respect and it was returned along with a "just slow her down a little and be careful".

My dad was a LEO and I was always taught that you will get back what you give out in those situations. You can still be given a citation, but you can still be given respect if that is what you give the officer. After all, he's not the one that screwed up, I did.

LOL @marshwheeling- "can't say for sure, but I think having a CCW permit may also have helped " Not only helped with my attitude if stopped- made me watch speed limits more closely. and BearBio, I actually practice what I will say, which is virtually identical to your format.

My last traffic stop was for speeding. I did what I was taught in my CCW class; window down, hands at 10&2. Officer asked if I was carrying, I replied yes, and he said it was pretty obvious. He said he didn't need to see my permit or my gun, just drivers license and proof of insurance. He asked what type of gun I was carrying, told me to slow down and to have a nice day.

I'd rather deal with a cop with a bad attitude about non-cops carrying guns than deal with a friendly cop on traffic stop in a state where it's considered to be constitutional to stop and detain people just to check their license, insurance and registration. How the heck is that kosher vis a vis the 4th amendment?

Never leave you papers in your car period. They usually have your address on them and not all criminals are morons. Some of them can figure out how to work a garage door opener and also can infer that if your car is in the parking lot, there's a good chance you're not home. Throw in a gun in the glovebox for good measure and you make it more difficult for anyone who IS home to defend themselves when the burglar comes calling.

Is that even legal?

I reckon, it happens all the time. I've seen it ever since I've been driving. My guess is that it's legal as long as *everyone* is stopped (no profiling). The intersection near my house is a common location. I see them there all the time, but I typically approach from the opposite direction and turn in my drive before I get to them.

This casts a bad light on my deceased BIL, but goes along with the story. My BIL was country in a way most folks can't even fathom. He grew up on the farm and hardly strayed from it (just for beer and Copenhagen). When he was about 25 y/o he was pulled over in the farm's truck by the local state police captain, a man that had known him all his life. When he asked my BIL for his license his reply was I don't have one. Captain Ward sez, you mean you left it home? BIL sez, No, I don't have one, never needed one til now. And that's when the butt chewing started. My sister was a witness to this and would have crawled under the seat if she'd a fit.

Anyway my BIL had been on a beer run a mile or so past my house. When he came back through the road block was set up. Being the quick thinking country boy that he was he pulled right up to the cops and then turned into the rice field right beside them. He made a big show of putting on his hip boots, grabbed his shovel and made a round through the field checking the levees. The field didn't belong to the guy he worked for. When he came back to the truck he told them "Ya'll have a nice day" got in the truck, went back the way he came without a question asked, and went back to the farm by another route.

Ahh the benefits of living the the sticks. If you want in a car, many of them in my part of the world aren't locked. Probably more now since most new ones come with remotes. I don't know where you live, but in my neighborhood this time of year a high percentage of trucks have at least on rifle in them, guns in the back windows of trucks are commonplace, unlocked doors are a regular occurrence, and when I walk through the parking lot at work I could show you 15-20 cars/trucks with the keys in them. Registration in the glove box has never been an issue till the traffic stop the other night. The Ruger in the glove box was just one of the three handguns in the truck at the time. Two never come out and if there weren't three of us in in my x-cab yoda there would have been an AR in the back seat.

So they were doing a "show us your papers" stop? Even though there was no probable cause or reasonable suspicion to believe you had done anything wrong?

Right make, right color, of a car that had been used in a commission of a crime. That's probable cause.

__________________
Freedom isn't free.

I keep my registration and proof of insurance clipped behind the garage door opener on my visor. It is convenient and out of the way. No need to reach across to the glove box or open the center console. My truck gun is usually holstered under my seat where my right hand can easily reach. In my state they know you have a permit as soon as they run you but I would always disclose up front as it's nothing I'm ashamed of. YMMV

The way it was described in the OP led me to believe that this was a check-point where they were doing a "show me your papers" check on every car that came through. That is NOT probable cause.

Oops, I just re-read the OP. You're right, I must be confusing this thread with a different story.

One day I will learn to think before I type.

__________________
Freedom isn't free.

I only read the first page and am so amazed at what I didn't see that I will not waste anymore time on this thread...what I didn't see was that no one sees a problem with road blocks set up to "check your papers"!?!? REALLY???!!!

"check your papers" sheriff is back door of me will have to talk to him. Thay will do safety checks at road blocks once or twice a year memorial day and labor day but not just a check your paper stop.

They do "safety checks" in my neck of the woods, 2 or 3 times a year. You would be amazed at the amount of drunk drivers, drug arrests and fugitives are taken into custody during these checks. Those are the major things being looked for here. A lot of warnings are issued for insurance verification or expired license, so not much hassle there. I feel like if they stay true to that mission, power to 'em. There are a lot of folks taken off of the road that have no business being there and therefore possibly untold numbers of lives saved. I have nothing to hide so why should i be troubled by these making the roads safer? Just my opinion.

First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the Communists and I did not speak out because I was not a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me.

Todays Version:

First they came for the hackers.
But I never did anything illegal with my computer,
so I didn't speak up.

Then they came for the pornographers.
But I thought there was too much smut on the Internet anyway,
so I didn't speak up

Then they came for the anonymous remailers.
But a lot of nasty stuff gets sent from anon.penet.fi,
so I didn't speak up.

Then they came for the encryption users.
But I could never figure out how to work PGP anyway,
so I didn't speak up.

Then they came for me.

And by that time there was no one left to speak up.

Wow......it must be a terrible thing to live in fear all the time.

I can assure you I speak up when they attempt this ploy into disturbing my life.... Arrest me, I'd rather stand up for what I believe than let them get away with it.

Once I was waiting on a MAJOR highway at a traffic jam... I crested a hill and suddenly traffic was stopped and cars were swerving around stopped cars, I had to slow FAST and watch out for the traffic behind me to be sure I wasn't crushed. Semi's were locking up their trailers, and the smell of brakes hung in the air. I thought there must be a heck of a wreck up ahead. I finally made my way to the front and saw traffic cones and traffic being routed into two lanes around a center point. This was a 4 lane highway and it was nearing nightfall. The traffic came to a stop abruptly and there were many near collisions as people realized they had to go from 70mph to a dead stop....

Finally I could see the carnage I knew would be there, only to find a couple of officers 'taking a survey of how citizens use the road' for development purposes.

I was shocked and so mad I couldn't see straight! I said, "You mean to tell me you are stopping traffic on a freeway almost causing accidents and creating a traffic jam for over a mile for a survey? Are you out of your MIND?!?!?!

"Yes sir, please pull into one of the stations up ahead and an officer will take your responses."

I replied, "Your actions will end up killing someone and it amazes me you could be so careless! You can shove your survey up your you know what!" And with that I did the best possible burn-out a mini-van could do and tore off down the road. I was actually hoping one would follow me and stop me because I'd gladly have my day in court.

I came back down that road only a half hour later and the 'survey crew' was gone. Maybe they realized they were going to kill someone. Maybe enough people complained.

I don't know what the answer is, and stopping to check for alcohol is a great idea, but I hope the officers running the show realize stopping traffic on a highway or busy street will cause traffic jams and accidents. They need to make allowances for that.

At the risk of hijacking this thread, the "I have nothing to hide, so why should I care" mentality can create a slippery slope and be taken to scary extremes rather quickly.

I usually drive the speed limit (or a reasonable amount over) but I'm still opposed to enforcement by speeding cameras. I don't beat my wife either, but that doesn't mean I'm OK with the police putting a camera in my living room.

As a gun owner, would you be opposed to providing a DNA sample every time you want to purchase a firearm? You know, just to be sure you haven't raped anyone recently?

You prevent big oversteps by the government by protesting the small ones.

StanNm19,
You should be concerned because it is a clear violation of the 4th Amendment. Just stopping people to check for registrations is an unreasonable search. It is a ploy used by cities to generate revenue. Having the correct paper doesn't make the streets any safer.

Now, had they been looking for a real bad guy, like I incorrectly stated earlier, it would be different.

__________________
Freedom isn't free.

You're right, that was pretty poor planning on a "check point" location. No since in getting people hurt by trying to keep people safe. I still don't know if your act of careless driving was the best way to make your point though. It would have been a shame to injure someone in the process.

I would argue that a public roadway is a little different than my living room.

In my case they didn't search for my documents. They asked to see them. I have given them no reason to search for anything. And if you will go back and re read my posting, I think that I portrayed this particular situation as a situation where they were looking for the "major" infractions. As I stated a lot of warnings were being issued for the less serious stuff.

I am sure that not all of these check points are used the same way as the ones that I have had the opportunity to be witness to. This has just been my experience, and I am not advocating an irresponsible approach to law enforcement at all. I am sure that others have horror stories to tell.

That's pretty much how it goes here. They pick up a lot of n'erdowells and get 'em off the street. Call it a safety check or whatever, lil sis works for the state police, she says they call them saturation's. I live in a wet county that's surrounded by dry counties, so there's lots of potential to get DUI's caught up in their dragnet. It's usually the county sheriffs, state police, and local PD, the arrest/violation stats are posted in the local newspaper the next day or two. Normally the stops are in non congested areas, if traffic gets to backing up they'll wave enough through to prevent any accidents.

The only time I've seen anything close to profiling/questionably illegal stops is when I attended the state MC rally one year. Every MC leaving the rally was stopped, cars were flagged through. Upside of it was, if you were sober enough to stop your bike and pull out your license, you were sent on your way.

As long as the LEO's are professional, I don't get heartburn about it.

Sitz v Michigan was the landmark case that said sobriety checkpoints were legal as long as the stops weren't arbitrary (ie. everyone was stopped, or every third car, etc.) The rationale was not probable cause or reasonable suspicion but rather that the stops were not unreasonable seizures because the right of the motoring public to be free from drunk drivers was more significant than the right of the drivers stopped to be free from the minor and momentary intrusion. I can ALMOST go along with this, but not really......As for roadblocks to check driver license, registration and insurance, I'd say that was unconstitutional if the motorists involved didn't have the opportunity to avoid the the checkpoint or refuse to participate. Incidentally, the US Supreme Court Case notwithstanding, sobriety checkpoints are not considered reasonable seizures in MI.....

I do not have a problem with checkpoints. They sometimes work well and sometimes they are a total waste of manpower.

Our checkpoints around here are advertised beforehand. Some people will avoid the area if they know about it in advance but they are also often the ones that lack current license, insurance or such.

Checkpoints are not meant to be used on an interstate highway due to the danger and high traffic volume.

As to people having to get on their brakes hard for a traffic stop, they are not driving safely. It means they are not paying attention to what is going on in front of them. If one is approaching a hill, they should see people hitting their brakes at the top of the hill and know something is going on. I see people hitting the rear of traffic on interstates simply because they did not see congestion a quarter mile away.

A checkpoint takes a couple minutes of a person's time and is only a minor inconvenience to one with nothing to worry about. That couple of minutes may also serve to take the drunk driver off the road that may be the one that would have hit your family member. It may catch a person with a homicide warrant out on them.

Same for here in Vegas!! The cops think they're the only ones that should own a firearm!!

I don't think anybody LIKES it, the question is what are we gonna DO about it? There are so, so many things the govt. does that are simply unConstitutional, unfair, stoooopid. But before I made a ruckus about stopping cars without cause, I would want the govt to stop borrowing money, stop taking it from us working people and giving it to others...even putting God back into our schools (which even teach socialism.) So no, I don't like being stopped like that but.....Sorry, stepped up on to my soapbox.

Your a good sheeple Stanley.

Just got home and the blue light brigade is set up at the intersection about 3/4 of a mile away on other side of my place tonight. Didn't have to pass through them this week.

I say this with no disrespect in mind, but who in the hell are you to decide what my time is worth?
I drive for a living and "only a few minutes" a few times a day cost me a bunch of money by the end of the year.

On the "it may also list", you COMPLETLY missed that it may also make me late for a delivery, a doctor appointment, picking a child up a school etc. Sorry you FAILED to remember that.

I would like to know how much brainwashing it takes to make a person honestly believe that they can determine what others time is worth?

Fortunatly this doesn't happen much if ever in MI because I would go through the state capital like my *** was on fire to have whoever dreamed up that garbage recalled, fired or whatever needs to happen.

Again I mean no disrespect but your comments really hit a nerve.

Oldman45 didn't make that decision about your time, Sitz v Michigan did.

Peace

As a LEO I've worked a number of sabriety checkpoints. We always utilize at least eight officers and courtesy and professionalism is key. Our goal is to delay a vehicle no more than 30 to 60 seconds unless there is probably cause to detain a vehicle further. Based on the number of drug and DUI arrests I have made which have made the roadways safer for law abiding citizens (i.e., saved lives) I don't apologize for the slight inconveniance it may cause.

__________________
- Change it back -

Agreed!


I'll be quite frank and state that I don't like working checkpoints anymore than some members posting here like going through them. In my experience, they're relatively unproductive for the time and manpower they consume. However, it is my opinion that every drunk we get off the highway is a small victory that might just save the life of an innocent traveler.

I ask this of my fellow citizens; are you too important and busy to donate a few minutes of your time to save a life?

I'm going to climb upon my soapbox and say this while I'm at it. I don't set out to be an inconvenience or to trample peoples' rights when I go to work. Before every shift I say a quick prayer and ask the good Lord to protect me, to guide and direct me. To have me go forth and do his work. My intentions are to make my little corner of America a little better for having been there. So a child can sleep in peace tonight without having to worry about his mother's abusive boyfriend terrorizing them. To keep a drunk behind the wheel from destroying a family. To keep evil at bay for those sleeping peacefully under my watch. It might sound corny and perhaps I'm a fool, but its the truth and there are many more like me. As Toby Keth says, "hate me if you want to, but love me if you can."