Crimson Trace on S&W642 +1

[Mphstiger1981]

I bought a set of Crimson Trace grips this week for my 642 after toying with the idea for a few weeks. Several posts on here prompted me to make the plunge.

As the 642 is the pistol I carry more than my others, I really like to shoot it at the range, and I have become relatively accurate with it at close distances but as the distance grows, the front sight becomes harder and harder for my 53 yr old eyes to see with the gray on gray of the 642. I tried painting the front sight with different colors but none of them really "popped" for me to be able to pick it up against the black background of the target.

Today I took the 642 with the CT grips installed to the range to zero them in. I used 7 yards as my distance. It took about 30 minutes for me to get the results I wanted, but once I got it zeroed in, it was amazing. Place the red dot in the x ring, smooth trigger squeeze, bang, and watch the center of the target slowly disappear. I was putting rounds on top of each other shooting with both hands unsupported at 7 yards. The best part was not worrying about finding the front sight. Instead, it was present the pistol to low ready, extend to the target and place the red dot on the target.


For me, I think the CT lasergrips give me a great advantage with the 642. I highly recommend them for anyone like me who has trouble seeing the front sight against the black target especially at the range in low light.

[gunner]

I have them on my 642. Love'em

[StatesRightist]

They are great, just remember to turn them off and shoot w/o them some. You can't see the dot in bright sunlight and batteries do die. Just an FYI.
I use them and like them as well.

[rpbcab]

I have them on my Kimber Ultra Covert II and I really like them. I have an SP 101 and a S&W model 60 and I am considering putting one on the Ruger, still considering the possibility....

[papajohn428]

My 642 came with CT grips on it..........I almost passed up the package deal but decided to give it a try, to see if they could live up to the hype.

They're staying!

[kraigwy]

I have one on my carry 642 and I wouldn't get rid of it for nothing.

To me, the best advantage of the 642 is in dry firing. Like others I have difficulty with the iron sights unless I concentrate and really pay attention.

When my shooting starts going south, I unload the revolver and dry fire a while using the CT sights. It really helps my iron sight shooting.

Now here is something few people practice or train with. When I was in LE I did a lot of building searches. I used a machanic's inspection mirror to check around corners or other spots when I didn't want to poke my head in to see what's there.

So I figured why not, I poke the CT equiped 642 around the barricade, then use the inspection mirror to observe the red dot on the target with out being exposed.

Try it, its fun, you'd be supprised how good you can get.

[hawgleg]

I absolultely recommend the laser for a small pocket carry gun. My 638 wears them and I feel very confident with them. Not a range gun.

[Lee in Quartzsite]

I have had them on my 642 for almost 6 years now, bought them factory installed from S&W. I remove them every time I clean the gun and I have never had to re-zero them since the day I zeroed them the first time. I can take the head off a rattlesnake at 20 feet.

A tip for shooting at distances over 20 feet in bright sun. Get some automotive reflective tape and cut into small squares or circles and place them on your target. The laser with light the tape up and make the dot quite visible.

[DAdams]

Plus 3. I have them on my 642 and 340 (405), and my Kahr
PM9.

[PatAz]

Love them on my 642.

[Hill_Country]

The CT's really make shooters out of J frames (at least better <G>).

FWIW, I don't know how long the batteries last as I've never had to replace a set. The ones on my 638 have been there at least 3 years (and been played with a bunch) and I can't tell they are any dimmer than when new. CT says they dim very slowly as the batteries die. CT will send a set set every year for free so replace the batteries regularly if one is concerned about them going dead.

Also, in bright sunlight at longer ranges the laser dot is a little more difficult to acquire, but still visible. The iron sights, even if a bit fuzzy, will get you close enough to find the dot.

[Lee in Quartzsite]

Originally Posted by Hill_Country

The ones on my 638 have been there at least 3 years (and been played with a bunch) and I can't tell they are any dimmer than when new.

I change mine when I change my smoke detector batteries, which is the time change from Standard time to Daylight time. The cost of the CR 2032 batteries is insignificant when it comes to personal safety. I think 3 years is stretching it a bit, especially if you do a lot of dry firing or use it to drive the cat nuts.

[ogilvyspecial]

Originally Posted by Lee in Quartzsite

I change mine when I change my smoke detector batteries, which is the time change from Standard time to Daylight time. The cost of the CR 2032 batteries is insignificant when it comes to personal safety. I think 3 years is stretching it a bit, especially if you do a lot of dry firing or use it to drive the cat nuts.

We have 9 CT Grips so what batt's were changed out when might be a little confusing to keep track of so I just replace all batteries at the beginning of every year and call it good, irregardless of how much they had been used.

[Hill_Country]

Originally Posted by Lee in Quartzsite

I think 3 years is stretching it a bit, especially if you do a lot of dry firing or use it to drive the cat nuts.

Probably is, but I'm interested in seeing how long they can reasonably go. I occasionally match it against one with a fresh battery so I can detect any dimming. I'll probably change it in a couple of years weather it needs it or not. <G>

I think the battery going dead or can't see it in bright daylight thing is much over-hyped either by competitors or people who've never used one. I've never heard from anyone who has actually had a problem.

[photoman]

I had the 305's for a while. Biggest problem I had was loss of zero. You can't remove the grips without having to re-zero the laser.

[681ismyfavorite]

my wife loves her CT grips on her model 60. my 642s were too light for her to shoot well....

[Lee in Quartzsite]

Originally Posted by Photoman44

I had the 305's for a while. Biggest problem I had was loss of zero. You can't remove the grips without having to re-zero the laser.

Any one else have a similar problem?? I have the 305's on my 642 and have never once had to re-zero them since new. I remove them every time I clean the gun and once reinstalled POA=POI. I have had the same experience with my M&P 9mm. Could be an issue with the grips...have you contacted CT?

[ogilvyspecial]

Originally Posted by Hill_Country

I think the battery going dead or can't see it in bright daylight thing is much over-hyped either by competitors or people who've never used one. I've never heard from anyone who has actually had a problem.

This probably doesn't rate as a problem but I know it sure ticked me off when it happened.

I had a problem Raccoon that I had been dealing with multiple times a night for over a week and when I finally had it dead to rights (out in the open) that was the time the batteries on my Streamlight TLR2s went dim on me.

It was one of those real dark nights and when I lit it up there wasn't much lit going on. I quickly reached down and flipped my green lens filter off trying to get more light, which helps me dial in the laser, but by the time that happened it was too late. Even with the lens cap off it still wouldn't have been enough.

That was only a 'Coon so it really wasn't a problem per se, but after all the time I had invested in getting that opportunity it sure made me mad and at the same time drove home the fact that things can happen at the most inopportune times. One of the things that really got me was that I had been out there using the TLR2s a few hours before and it was functioning just fine, so when it went, it went fast.

This was the 2nd time I had batteries go dim on me when I needed them. The first was a flashlight when I was right in the middle of chasing a skunk around the outside of our house trying to get a shot with a clear background.

When my wife heard what happened, both times, she took a whole different approach.
She got a good laugh out of it.

Edited to add: When considering the longevity of any battery, in any device, to get good results you would need to know/note when the batteries were manufactured as well as their shelf life. If the batteries were just manufactured then they, in theory, should perform better than batteries that have already used up half, or more, of their shelf life. I think that the Maxell CR2032's have a shelf life of something like 5 years, but don't hold me to that.

[ogilvyspecial]

Originally Posted by Lee in Quartzsite

Any one else have a similar problem?? I have the 305's on my 642 and have never once had to re-zero them since new. I remove them every time I clean the gun and once reinstalled POA=POI. I have had the same experience with my M&P 9mm. Could be an issue with the grips...have you contacted CT?

More often than not I have to dial ours back in after removing them for cleaning, usually just a little. We have 9 CT Grips and it's the same with all of them.

Since I know how well my sights are aligned on the guns the CT Grips are on I simply point the gun across the room and, while keeping the gun pointed straight at the wall, not angled any. I line up the laser using the sights as my guide. This wall is about 25' away so I'm good with that since it applies to our self defense needs.

When I have to dial in the laser on my shotgun I take it outside and use a tree that's about 20 yards away for my aiming point, which is the distance that I take most of my shots with that gun.

One thing I have seen once in awhile when dialing in the CT Grips on our handguns is that after you get them dialed in, then check them later they can be off a little. I found that after making any adjustments, if I take the handle of a small screwdriver and gently tap the laser housing it will free the laser if, for some reason, it was stuck a little and didn't fully take the adjustment I had made.

I think I learned to do this through Crimson Trace, either in their forums, web-site or owners manual.

[Hill_Country]

Originally Posted by ogilvyspecial

When my wife heard what happened, both times, she took a whole different approach.
She got a good laugh out of it.

Our wives may be sisters. <G> In fact, I think the same critters may have paid us a visit. We had a few similar nighttime fire drills that convinced me of the necessity of lasers.

For some dumb reason my wife thinks a great white hunter should wear more than boxers.

[Hill_Country]

Originally Posted by ogilvyspecial

More often than not I have to dial ours back in after removing them for cleaning, usually just a little. We have 9 CT Grips and it's the same with all of them.

Since I know how well my sights are aligned on the guns the CT Grips are on I simply point the gun across the room and, while keeping the gun pointed straight at the wall, not angled any. I line up the laser using the sights as my guide. This wall is about 25' away so I'm good with that since it applies to our self defense needs.

When I have to dial in the laser on my shotgun I take it outside and use a tree that's about 20 yards away for my aiming point, which is the distance that I take most of my shots with that gun.

One thing I have seen once in awhile when dialing in the CT Grips on our handguns is that after you get them dialed in, then check them later they can be off a little. I found that after making any adjustments, if I take the handle of a small screwdriver and gently tap the laser housing it will free the laser if, for some reason, it was stuck a little and didn't fully take the adjustment I had made.

I think I learned to do this through Crimson Trace, either in their forums, web-site or owners manual.

FWIW, I modify the CT LG359 lasergrips (59xx model) to fit other 3d Gen Smiths, so I handle and install quite a number of these grips. My experience has been that sometimes they don't move (within the grip) when adjusted, but once adjusted they stay in the same position relative to the iron sights. In the course of doing a mod I may check the laser several dozen times. If it changes position relative to the iron sights I know I've done something wrong. New, just out of the box they are all adjusted the same.

Some models may be a little different, but the LG359's have three points of contact with the rear of the frame. As long as those three points are correct (and they will only go one way) the laser is always adjusted properly.

I also have a CT on my J frame, and it has been a while since I've removed/installed it, but I suspect it has a similar design which doesn't allow much (any) movement.

What models are you having difficulty retaining their zero? Is it possible that the laser's position hasn't fully "relaxed" until the grip is removed. Is there any slack where the retention screw is installed?

[ogilvyspecial]

The models that I've had to rezero after removal & reinstallation are.

LG-303 (Ruger SP-101)

LG-325 (Charter Arms) which uses a larger allen adj. wrench

LG-305 (S&W J Frame)

LG-405 & 405 P20 (S&W J Frame)

LG-306 (S&W K/L Rd Butt)

LG-307 (S&W K/L Sq Butt)

I always figured (guessed) that the reason I had to rezero, more often than not, was the variation in the torque used when putting the grips back on. Sometimes I may tighten the grips just a little more, or less, than I had the time before. Please note that I said I have to rezero, more often than not, not every time. Sometimes I put them back on, look down the sights and all is as it was before.

I've been using CT Grips for over for 3 years now and my experience has been the same since the beginning & on every model mentioned above, that's why an allen adj. wrench is kept in the lid of my gun cleaning tool box.

Having a pistol range in the backyard means we get to shoot whenever the mood strikes so I've had CT Grips on & off our guns literally dozens of times. On some days alone we might have 5 or 6 guns out there with CT Grips on them and they always get removed for cleaning purposes. Because of this I know that all of our grips behave pretty much the same so it's not just one or two odd balls in the mix. Also, since I always, as a matter of course, gently tap on the laser housing after each adj. that it shouldn't be getting out of zero due to the vibration created when shooting the guns. During range sessions they stay zeroed in nicely.

You know, I always thought when I read someone had taken their guns out and zeroed in the CT Grips that they must not remove their grips when cleaning the gun. Thinking, what good would it do to zero them in, take them off and more than likely have them be out of adjustment, even if just a little bit.

Another thing that confused me is that they needed to shoot the guns to zero them in at all, I'm talking self defense distances here. If you know your iron sights POA (Point Of Aim) / POI (Point Of Impact) relationship at those distances and for the ammo you're using you just use the iron sights as your guide. I can see where new users would have to establish this relationship up front, so maybe that's what they were doing.

One thing I would recommend to those who are new to laser sights, and that is, after you get them zeroed in for the distance you want, shoot the gun from distances closer & further away from the target than your zero distance to get a feel for how distance effects the laser dot's zero on the target. At normal self defense ranges the variation will be minimal, but when using the laser on my shotgun at, let's say 35 yd's, as opposed to the 20 yd's I zero it in at, the difference is quite pronounced.

One other thing I would like to mention and all of you "innie" belly button people will know where I'm coming from. If using a laser sight in a concealed carry role check your laser sight's aperture opening once in awhile, I do so on a regular basis, because lint has a tendency to get in there on occasion, just like it does in a belly button. How much, if any, lint gets in there all depends on your holster's design & how well it keeps things covered up.

[Hill_Country]

That's really odd, I've never heard of that problem. CT says that their grips are zeroed at 50 ft from the factory and all of the LG359's that I get are all in about the same position relative to the iron sights when I get them new.

The exception to that was my first CT, an LG405 that I put on a new 638. The factory sights are so far off on that gun that I often couldn't find the POI. I had carried a M36 for 30 years so I knew it wasn't all me so I installed the laser as a way of getting adjustable sights. That gun is stainless so I don't remove the grips as often as a blued gun, but I think I will take a look inside them just to see how they are aligned inside.

When I started installing CT's on 3d Gen autos it took me a while to figure out that it was easier to adjust the CT to match the iron sights IF the iron sights had already been sighted in. duh

Must be a reason your CT grips don't re-install in the same position, but I can't imagine what it is. Your idea about torque on the screw may be a good place to start. One thing that I do is change the slotted grip screws used on the LG359's to a socket head as they are a lower profile and don't get buggered up. A poor boy way to torque them consistently is to use a 1/4 inch bit in my fingers rather than an ell shaped allen wrench or a bit holder.

[everReady Rob]

Originally Posted by Mphstiger1981

I tried painting the front sight with different colors but none of them really "popped" for me to be able to pick it up against the black background of the target . . . For me, I think the CT lasergrips give me a great advantage with the 642. I highly recommend them for anyone like me who has trouble seeing the front sight against the black target especially at the range in low light.

I could have written your post, went through the same procedure as you and have had the same results.

Don't you just love that 642 w/CTs.

[Mphstiger1981]

Not sure about anyone else, but I was trying to align my red dot with the point of aim at 7 yards. The question then came to my mind, how does this alignment impact the relationship of the dot and the iron sights at other distances? Oddly enough, I soon found my answer while reading some posts about the CT on another gun forum. Fortunately, someone was kind enough to post this link for a ProArms Podcast from Mas Ayoob and some other folks well acquainted with the CT lasers. In this discussion they talk about how to adjust the laser so that it is parallel to the bore, and not adjust it for certain distances. Anyone interested might want to fast forward to around the 49 minute mark of the conversation. I personally found it to be very helpful.
018 Crimson Trace Laser Grips and Laser Sights Review « The ProArms Podcast

[ogilvyspecial]

Originally Posted by Mphstiger1981

Not sure about anyone else, but I was trying to align my red dot with the point of aim at 7 yards. The question then came to my mind, how does this alignment impact the relationship of the dot and the iron sights at other distances? Oddly enough, I soon found my answer while reading some posts about the CT on another gun forum. Fortunately, someone was kind enough to post this link for a ProArms Podcast from Mas Ayoob and some other folks well acquainted with the CT lasers. In this discussion they talk about how to adjust the laser so that it is parallel to the bore, and not adjust it for certain distances. Anyone interested might want to fast forward to around the 49 minute mark of the conversation. I personally found it to be very helpful.
018 Crimson Trace Laser Grips and Laser Sights Review « The ProArms Podcast

I highly recommend anyone with a laser sight to follow the link M so kindly provided and ff to the 49 min mark as he suggested.

I tried to describe this in my previous post and ended up confusing myself to the point that I deleted most of what I had written on that aspect and just touched on checking the differences when it came to distances. I figured that if someone at least did that they would see for themselves what the pros in the podcast so easily described.

The reason I mentioned the differences between the lasers on my handguns and the one on my shotgun is because the type on my shotgun is mounted directly in line with the barrel and basically right under the front sight bead, as opposed to being on the side & down on my CT Grips.

Thanks M!

[Hill_Country]

Originally Posted by ogilvyspecial

The models that I've had to rezero after removal & reinstallation are.

You've got me baffled. I don't doubt what you say - I just can't understand how it happens. I pulled the LG405's off my 638 last night and they seem to "latch" in to position even more firmly than the LG359's I work with. On reinstallation they appeared to be in the same relative position as before they were removed.

FWIW, I noticed that one of the two grip screws was missing so I called CT customer service. Asked for my zip code and immediately found me in their database so I didn't have to rattle off the details. It was obviously my fault that I lost the screw, but there was no charge for the screw or shipping. It is a pleasure to deal with a company like that.

I like the idea of adjusting the laser parallel to the bore rather than trying to intersect it at some arbitrary range. That's so obvious that I can't believe someone hasn't suggested it before. Thanks for pointing it out.

John

[ogilvyspecial]

I don't know what to say John, other than to reiterate that sometimes I put them back on & all is well.

Just to clarify one point, I always put the sames grips back on the same gun so that's not a factor and if
I do have to rezero them, it's more along the lines of tweaking so we're not talking about major adjustments.

[photoman]

Eventually, I'll buy some LG-105's and give those a try. I like the magna size and the hard plastic might give more reliable results.

[AdamSean]

Mine came with the gun. I love the ability to see what I may be shooting at in low light. The frame sights are just too hard to see at night.