'Now it's my turn': Greenbrae man, 90, testifies about shootout with suspect - Marin Independent Journal

If a person does not fall once shot three times, it means he was not impressed with the caliber used.

The story makes my blood boil. It shows how low some defense attorneys can go. The perp's attorney wants charges dismissed on someone that is obviously guilty. By putting up enough smoke screens, there is a change the attorney will be successful.

None of the Judges I know would have needed time to decide if there was enough evidence to set a trial.

I would like to applaude the home owner for doing what he did it is just to darn bad that he was unable to kill the burglar then there would have been no need for a trial.

thats why I never advise anyone to carry anything less than the biggest caliber they can handle.

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it just needs more voltage

My hat is off to Mr. Leone (the victim) - that man is harder than Chinese algebra!

Regards,

Dave

Which is why I have a 12GA for the house. If he takes 3 rounds of buckshot center mass and keeps coming I'll hand him the gun and pull the trigger myself, he's a better man than I am.

If he takes 3 rounds of 12 GA buckshot center mass and keeps coming then all the zombie preppers aren't crazy after all.

But I agree with you about using a shotgun for home defense. Always use the BFG you can.

What did the perp get shot with?

3 rounds of .38 in the gut

Or perhaps it was shot placement?

Back in the 90's I worked with a guy who I became pretty good friends with. Eventually he changed dept & shift so we didn't hang out after work like we used to.

After a few years I heard some people talking at work saying "Reggie" had been shot, three times with a .45

I wore a radio at the time and was called away while they were talking so I never heard exactly what happened.

A couple of years later I was sitting in a chair at work when somebody came up behind me, grabbed me around the neck and said, "don't move." I knew immediately that it was Reggie.

I turned and said, I heard you got killed? He said they tried, but failed in spite of their best efforts. While telling me what went down he pulled up his shirt and showed me where he had been hit 3 times in the chest with .45 acp rounds.

He was hit all 3 times in the upper torso with 2 rounds hitting on either side of his heart area and the other just slightly below.

Reggie was as lucky at gettin' shot as he was when we used to play pool at his house after work.

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Ogy

Shots to the abdomen with any caliber are not always effective.

Odds are the old timer had his .38 loaded with LRN 158's.

I see that quite a bit with folks who load up a weapon and it has sat for many years without being used.

Kudos to him for continuing the fight and not giving up.

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Take your time..quickly.

Lobogunleather had a great post about things like this quite some time ago. A lot of us thought it should have been a sticky. It's a must read so a search for it is worth the time.

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Why duck?? It's a 9mm!

Gut shots don't often do too much slowing down.... ask any hunter.

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- The Federalist #46 -

The old man had a plan and modified it as things played out. Pretty sharp for 90 and living in the SanFran area. Joe

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Wisdom chases me; I'm faster

I have witnessed many people after being shot and quite a few as they were shot. I have seen some strange things happen like someone dying of a non fatal wound and someone living after being hit with a fatal wound.

That said, I have never (in military, LE or civilian life) ever saw someone take three hits anywhere from a .45acp and continue aggression or retreat. Not saying the wounds were fatal but they stopped the person right then.

Now that said, I know of a sheriff that carried a 1911 and was very proficient with it. One night he was chasing an armed robber in an alley. He shot the perp in the leg but the guy kept running. He shot the guy a second time in the leg. The guy kept running. Finally he shot the guy in the gut as the guy spun on him. The man went down. It was later learned the man was wearing an artificial leg that now has two bullet holes in it.

When Reggie (post #12) was telling me about getting shot I asked,
"What did you do when he shot ya?"

Reggie said, "What the heck do you think I did!?!? I fell down!"

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Ogy

Just because a bullet strikes someone (regardless of caliber) doesn't guarantee he's going down. The bullets must hit a vital organ, artery, or nerve to stop that person. A flesh shot might cause a person to bleed to death hours later, but might not put him down as fast as one might like or need to.

Chief38

Things learned from this----"Don't mess with Reggie"...
A few millimeters one way or another is all it takes.
My brother was left a parapalegic when shot in the back once
with a .22 lr
He darn near died on way to the hospital. The medics said they
lost him twice in the ambulance on the way to hospital.
Fate is a fickle mistress.


RIP Donnie love you brother


chuck

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They hold no Quarter

Chief, hate to disagree with you but you are not correct. People will generally go down after being hit once. This does not have to go into a vital area. Hit them twice and they are more prone to fall. Hit them three times and they will fall if you are using the right caliber gun. I have saw many hit in shoulders, arms and such with just one bullet fired by street perps and they fell in virtually the same spot they were hit. Hollywood has done a great job in mind control making us buy certain guns and seeing people continue agression after being hit a dozen times. Like a knee replacement, people do not care to be hit a second time. A large enough caliber and the person is going down, if for no other reason than shock value.

Hunters will call foul on this but people are different from animals. People reason that they have been shot and are likely in bad shape so they fall. Animals have a survial instinct and will often continue to run until they bleed out.

Hitting arteries, organs, spine or such may bring about death or instant paralsys but hitting a person anywhere with a good size caliber and they will fall, if not after the first hit they will after the second and for sure during the third.

A myth that has been circulating for years is that a drugged up perp has unnatural strength and will continue to be an agressor. This is not correct in most instances. Druggies are victims of their own habits. They have weakened internal systems and actually easier to take down unless they are on some of the lesser used drugs that give a short lived boost to their system. I had to sit through four hours of a boring seminar listening to medical experts discuss this.

All I can say is that I hope I'm that awesome when I'm 90.

good thing PCP isnt a mainstream chemical modifier.
In my young and dumb years I saw that poison make a resurgence. saw two different perps flip out on it, maul people, take hideous levels of damage, and keep on truckin.
yeah their overall physical states are compromised from the abuse. Im sure a well placed rock from a sling shot would end their lives ... AFTER they come down

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it just needs more voltage

This right here. But we still have to remember that people are animals and some of them, either b/c they are just really bad people or they are under the influence of drugs, might not drop when shot with anything if it doesn't hit brain or spine. You have to keep shooting until they are not physically able to continue the attack b/c of blood loss or broken bones.

You seem to have a good grasp on this fact. But then you go on about "Hit them three times and they will fall if you are using the right caliber gun". And then "A large enough caliber and the person is going down, if for no other reason than shock value."

That's the truth. In all my LE career I've never run into anyone more dangerous than someone on this drug. I kneeled on one subject (I'm over 200 pounds) and he raised up and bit me twice. He felt no pain whatsoever, had strength that you had to experience to believe, and was literally out of his mind. On the other hand, in over 30 years I'd never been assaulted by anyone simply smoking pot. As the Waco Kid told the sheriff in Blazing Saddles, don't take your gun. If you shoot Mongo you'll just make him mad. I felt that way about the kid on PCP.

more folks should take a crack at building a hot rod. you'd gain some insight into the effects of psychological state.
If ever you've had a wrench slip in cold weather to where your knuckles meet a solid structure the pain involved isnt far off from a swift kick to the wedding vegetables.
Thing is, we get passionate about such things. most other tasks, a fraction of that injury would be cause to warm the bench. Not so on a beloved machine. you wont let it defeat you and you might proclaim something to the effect of "You want my blood you can have it till it burns off your headers when I dump the clutch at 6000!!!!" You then finish the task .. wrap your hand in a shop towel grab a bite to eat and go at it again.
its a conditional attitude like this that determines how much caliber will be necessary.
at the dinner table, a stray 22 will probably send ya off.
Just add a passionate pursuit of an objective and you might be able to eat a mag of 9MM's and pee napalm as you finish your job.
by the way, .. do try to clean the blood off exhaust system components when they become contaminated as such.
The next emotion you'll be charged with will be fear and panic when you smell that funk during the shake down cruise

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it just needs more voltage

I saw it twice ... after that, you might see "shocking graphic" footage of a pride of lions taking down caribou in Africa ... and then see the violence unfolding as order and civility

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it just needs more voltage

venomballistics... I think that "psychological state" is everything to immediate "stopping power" when the brain and spinal cord aren't hit.

Kudos to the scrappy senior! Maybe someone needs to get him some more effective ammo but I'm impressed that he was 3 for 5 with his "heater". Given what I've seen about today's hit/miss ratio, this citizen did pretty well!

PC

I wish the news reporters would get gun use details...such as make, caliber, ammo type, etc. and add them to the story. I'm always curious about what worked or didn't work. All you ever hear is "pistol", "rifle" or "shotgun"...if that.

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Term limits!

They might do so if they knew it. Shootings are time consuming to learn the details. Caliber is often not known for a couple days. Gun types are difficult to determine quickly. Some weapons are never found. Ammo type is seldom learned.

What can you expect from a bunch of idiots who think semi-autos are the same thing as full auto?

Thanks for posting! I just came in off the road and read this.
I'm having a toast to Reggie as I write this. Hope he lives forever!
TACC1

Keep it safe out there guys, and remember that a pistol buys you time to get to the 12 gauge or rifle.

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NRA Pistol/Rifle Inst. RSO

Correct, assuming you are where there is a 12 ga or rifle around.

I wonder if there are any stats on where firearm confrontations take place.

Since so few folks carry compared to the number of households that have guns, I would have to guess that most of the time it is at home. I've never read any statistics on this particular subject that I thought were reliable. Nevertheless, here's a collection of data referred to as a "Fact Sheet" by GOA. 2.5 million SD uses and .5 million away from home. 80/20. The SD uses range from just saying they have a gun, brandishing a gun, firing a warning shot... rarely shooting anyone.

Fact Sheet: Guns Save Lives - Gun Owners Of America

*
Not a vital shot. Potentially lethal, of course, but not nearly rapid enough. This is a left over from the old style targets and reference to imprecise definitions of "center mass".

Google "tactical anatomy" and see what Dr. Williams has to say about target selection. In crude terms, the vital target area is defined by a horizontal line though the nipples on the bottom, a vertical line using the nipples as the bottom outside corner of the box, and roughly clavicle notch as the upper marker for the top horizontal line. A good throat shot has a decent chance of hitting vital blood vessels and the spine, but it is a hard target to reliably hit. Likewise the face (NOT a "headshot" - too much hard skull in the way) - draw a triangle roughly framed by the outside of the eyes and the nasal passages.

This does not take away from the warrior attitude displayed by the old guy - that's tough.

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NHI, 10-8.

Made some great reading and I would say it is pretty close to being accurate.

* 3/5 of felons polled agreed that "a criminal is not going to mess around with a victim he knows is armed with a gun."
And this is why I support open carry. Never known of a criminal yet go up against armed people.

Thing is there's no such thing as a sure thing, especially in a fight. Plan accordingly, get trained, and use a gun/caliber your comfortable with!
And to the 90 year old I say this, Valhalla has a place reserved for you, and HOOYAH! Dale

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"Long live the S&W 3rd. Gen.!"

In regards to the Animals hunted vs. humans taking a bullet.
The difference here is people will "KNOW" when they are shot
and therefore are affected most times by going into some state
of "shock". The animal does'nt go into shock most cases and will
run sometimes until vitals give out or a bleed out occurs. I would never count out a perp on "any kind of controlled substance" until
the coroner was standing on top of him declaring him legally dead.



chuck

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They hold no Quarter

I agree shot placement is a major concern. Any shot not hitting the point of aim is pretty much wasted.

Hitting organs is great also, if one can do it. If it gets to the point of shooting someone, the emotions are way up, the hands shake, pressure is on both physically and emotionally.

Hitting the spine is difficult, especially on a moving target.
Hitting the brain is also hard, as is the lungs, heart or such.

You seldom hear someone give other options, usually non lethal and easier to hit.

Have you ever saw a one legged man walk or run? They cannot do so. Hitting someone in the legs with a proper caliber stops all aggression. Hit someone in the pelvic region stops aggression.

Two legs vs one narrow spine? Take the leg shot since it is a better target.

Pelvic region goes across the entire body. Heart, lungs and other are limited in area. Pelvic regions are easy to hit even by the unpracticed marksman.

I completely agree that the vital targets would be quite difficult to hit especially under stress and with a moving target. If someone was charging me with a baseball bat or a machette I would probably be inclined to go for the legs as it would stop the threat but if someone is pointing a gun at me I personally wouldn't consider a leg shot as an option.

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sticks-n-stones&hollowpoints

Strato, you bring up a good point and I always enjoy your postings.

In this one, we might need to look at it differently. If someone is pointing a gun at you, the fight has already been lost.

Do not draw on one that has a gun pointed at you. If you do, you just forced them to shoot you. While I agree that going for the leg against one pointing a gun at me is not an option but neither is pulling a gun. It becomes time to calmly discuss the issue. I have found that most of the time someone pulls a gun and does not shoot immediately, they are not apt to do so unless provoked into doing so.

Even hitting someone in a vital area will likely mean you are going to get shot. A person can pull a trigger out of instinct, even as they fall.

Something comes to mind after reading this thread. If you are in a situation who really has time to aim?

Anything I've read pretty much say that it will become a point and shoot. As best you can do is just hope to see the front sight.

Things that get overlooked, these situation happen fast, very fast, split second decision and you hope that you act to the situation and not react (training, muscle memory helps here).

Adrenalin dump, clouding thinking, muscle control causing shaking.

The thought that you will be under duress, draw and double tap some evil doer between the eyes seems like a long odds.

Am I wrong in thinking this way?

Thankfully I dont have first hand knowledge and hope never to

Good thought process here. Many,many,times,in fact more often than not the fight is actually a fight before it becomes a gunfight.
Yes,muscle memory and training plays a huge role in your skill under stress.That's why we train.
There are many 21st century trainers out there who want to laugh you off as a fool if you,in any way,advocate any kind of point or sightless shooting. Then,there are others who agree that some point shooting skills are a good thing to have in your bag.My own experiences have taught me that the latter is true.
Not only that,but look at the history of real pistol fights.
It is readily apparent that what Fairburn and Sykes,and Applegate were teaching was successful. Take a look,for example at some of the old legendary gunfighters and their methods. Mr. Bryce would be the best example of this.

I am a firm believer in using sights when it's possible,but the fact is that it is not always possible,and there's not always time. We are currently deludged with more modern weapons and the advocates for some kind of red dot sights on pistols is growing by leaps and bounds.
It's one of those things that might make you go "HMMM?"

I personally do not believe that these have any place on a defensive pistol or revolver. Many say it's the wave of the future because they are fans of some of the better known advocates of these things. I may be old,but I'm not as stupid as I look.
Just as sighted fire training is an urgent need for those who carry a handgun,so are point shooting skills,shooting from retention,and so forth and so on and blah,blah,blah.
Your survival may depend on it,and believe me,once you understand and practice the concepts,it is not that difficult.
I'm all for scopes,RDS's, and many other options on a long gun for battle,but the personal defensive sidearm needs to be simple and fast,and the user needs to be skilled with it in all these areas.Whats old is new again.
If one's interest is in developing gunfighting skills,then they should be interested in becoming a complete gunfighter.

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Blessed be the Lord,my Rock

If my weapon wasn't already in my hand before they took aim on me you're absolutely right. The gunfight is over and after only a few seconds of reasoning if he doesn't show any sign of standing down every word I could think of would be coming out of my mouth while I'm looking for cover to hopefully create a chance to start over. If both guns are drawn any hit along with swift movement would decrease his chances of hitting you and the way I see it the fewer shots he gets off the better your chances of survival. I would much prefer not to have to shoot at anyone, even a scumbag. That's not a memory I would want etched in my brain. I totally agree that even a good hit doesn't guarantee it'll stop the perp from delivering a fatal shot. In my oppinion not dying should be the first thought followed closely be eliminating the threat. I always respect your expertise and experience and usually agree as well as see your point when I don't. The hardest thing to determine in any confrontation is the human factor as we are all unique with our own abilities and limits and that's true for the perps too. Reguardless of someone's demeaner you never know what's going on in his head. Stats are generalized and what works for the masses isn't always the right choice.

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sticks-n-stones&hollowpoints

Strato,I certainly undrstand your thinking on this,however,the bat is a deadly weapon,also.
If an individual is charging you with a bat,your life is certainly in mortal danger and you are completely justified in shooting in defense.
Shooting for the legs(as he is running toward you) is a much more difficult target than center mass. If you miss, those missed shots will not disuade him in the least if he is already angry enough to charge you in the first place.
If you are justified in shooting,you are justified in killing.

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Blessed be the Lord,my Rock

There's always the "draw against the drop" performed with movement.But... that's a topic for another thread.

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Blessed be the Lord,my Rock

Yeah I failed to mention distance. If he's coming at me with a bat from accross the parking lot I'm confident I can stop him without killing. If he's within 30 feet I'm going for center mass. If he's standing over me with a raised bat and I have my weapon out or can get it out fast enough he'll get 2 or 3 in the face. Ultimately I never want to kill anyone but will do whatever it takes to survive.

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sticks-n-stones&hollowpoints

Yes sir,distance does certainly make the difference in the actions taken as well as the outcome.

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Blessed be the Lord,my Rock

This type of scenario is I have practiced point shooting consistently so that I can shoot a 4 inch sized group out to 10 yds shooting from the holster fast and in multiples. Double tap center torso, 1 in the head.

Shooting 1 every 4-5 seconds and painting a pretty picture on paper all the time is a waste of practice time in my opinion. There are guys who are bullseye/comp shooters who regularly out shoot me on paper. However, I'm not there stroke my ego, I'm there to practice things that apply to the street. Don't get me wrong, I have no issue with bullseye shooting, but people do real world drills too. JMO.