Maybe, just maybe this will put a stop to the caliber debate.

This the best explanation ever.
Stopping Power - YouTube

Great post!!

Sounds good to me.

True, but there comes a point where you've got to admit that caliber does indeed matter.

Notice how .22LR, .25auto, .32auto, .380acp, etc. didn't exactly make his charts as prime examples?

Only service calibers matter. IMO, those you mention don't.

The video demonstrates that caliber is a very small part of the equation. So small that it's not worth arguing about.

It is a very informative post. I've seen others like it, this one is better. But putting the caliber argument to bed? Wishful thinking Kane.

There will never be an end to the caliber wars. It's just like asking car guys which is better, asking beer guys if it tastes great or it's less filling, etc. Personally I have been saying what this guy has said for years, and I have done research granted nothing to his scale but I remember the old saying, a hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .44. I think as long as gun magazines advertise and have some writers that seem to "prefer" one caliber over the other, then you will have some that take their lead and go with it. Elmer Keith like the .44 Magnum, Skeeter preferred the .357, Jeff Cooper had his .45 ACP and they all have their own loyal followers. Today its the same. I know some who own .45's and to them that's it and that's all. I know some who really like the .40 and others who like the 9mm. To me, I carry what I can shoot the best. I have had them all, and I shoot the .357 Magnum the best so that's what I carry the most often. If I shot the .45 the best I would carry that, but I don't so I carry the .357. My wife prefers the .38 Special and she has shot the big bores, and doesn't like them. I don't tell her the .38 is underpowered, I let her shoot what she shoots the best.

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Vaya con Dios

Dude! What does this OLD fossil-guy know! Anyone would know that a 10mm Glock (with a PUNISHER sticker on the butt) is the MOST awsomest.
We now return to reality.......................
Thanks for posting that, it's going on my permanent list of youtube reference.

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Halfway and one more step

Any caliber that is carried, even a 22, 25, or a 32 would be WAY AHEAD of any caliber firearm that YOU LEFT AT HOME.

The deal gets even better if you can shoot it VERY WELL AND ACCURATELY.

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NRA Pistol/Rifle Inst. RSO

My son (11) asked if his M&P15-22 would be a suitable defense weapon for him.

I told him it definitely would! And I went on to explain that he is comfortable with it, he is deadly accurate, it holds 25 rounds of 22LR, and no bad guy is going to stand and take the barrage of bullets coming from that thing.

My daughter (15) was scared by herself a few nights ago and grabbed my 4513 to keep by her side until I came home. Even though we have done some training work, she was unable to tell which third gen was the one she was used to, and she did not have the weapon loaded although the mag was full.

We immediately went through a learning session of loading and clearing the weapon, safety checks and handling. She found she could not easily operate the slide on the .45. She will stick with the M&P9 and for a back-up weapon I have a M&P22 available in the house. I also won't keep the third gens together as they look alike to the novice.

I think it is important to use a gun you are comfortable with no matter what the caliber. I have seen my kids squint and even look away when firing a larger hand gun, and I'd rather have them keep their eyes focused and aiming with a smaller gun.

In other news water was found to be wet.

Emory

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Georgia On My Mind

From Modern Defensive Training Systems, LLC
Wound Ballistics 101
http://www.mdtstraining.com/Wound_Ballistics_101.pdf
Looks to be same info but in wrighting. And I agree with David LaPell no matter what calibre if you are not good with it or don't carry it does no good.

is not that great to begin with. Survival from a handgun shot depends on many things, mind set, individuals training, and where you are shot.

In general about 80% seem to survive a gunshot wound from a handgun. Rifle lower, and shotgun considerably lower.

A good friend and retired Detroit cop, says that a 12ga DB loaded with slugs always exited the vehicle with him.

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the world is round everywhere

Rather then arguing about which caliber is best, I'm more interested in finding out which grain weight, load and manufacturer is optimal for my chosen gun and caliber, the snub nose revolver chambered for .38spl+p. It's sometimes difficult to get good info when I post without the "caliber wars" starting.

That’s because it’s a 38 Special.

Which means as much as you want a magic bullet, there isn’t one. Waddcutters to +P 158 Grn lead hollow points don’t REALLY make that much difference. That was kind of the point of the video.

But for what it’s worth, Buffalo Bore’s +P Lead 158 Grn Hollow Point is not a bad choice.
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...t_detail&p=108

Emory
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Honest Men Fear Neither The Light Nor The Dark

I don't want a magic bullet (when did I say that?), I just want one I can control. 158gr+p semi wadcutters may be fine in a larger, steel frame revolver, but everything I tried in my lightweight 642 and LCR over 130gr has been disagreeable to say the least.

Like I said, it's hard to get any kind of useful info on the subject. Most just want to recommend the biggest and the baddest, irrespective of the needs of the shooter.

Most things in life involve compromise. If you carry a lightweight gun, and don't want to shoot "disagreeable" ammo, then you are limited, especially in ft. lbs. of energy. Just pick out a non-+p 110-125 grain loading that isn't disagreeable and go with that.

I keep the aforementioned BB158 grain hollow point +p in my steel frame j-frames. I keep 125 grain Golden Sabers in my alloy frame j-frames.

I really don't see how the video settles anything, by the way. We all know that bullet placement is the most important factor. Bullet shape, weight, caliber, performance in tissue, and ft. lbs. of energy expended in the target are also factors. There is still plenty of room for argument concerning all the factors except bullet placement.

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Georgia On My Mind

One of my two Glock 26's, "Scarface", sat in a property/evidence room in Florida for nearly six years. Well worth the $257.00 I gave for it.

Let me put it in plain terms. THE .38 SPECIAL IS AN ENEMIC ROUND!
It doesn’t matter what you load it with! Is that clear?

You chose a J-Frame .38. Not me. Live with it.
And YOU asked for a specific “Self Defense Load” for it.
That’s not asking for a magic bullet?
I already told you Wad Cutters were a good choice too. (that's a low recoil target round)

Emory
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Honest Men Fear Neither The Light Nor The Dark

Great points, but then again, Elmer Kieth,Bill Jordan, and Skeeter Shelton, (the last two LEO's who had been there,done that, in the line of duty) where very instrumental in getting S&W and Remington to develope the .41 magnum, as a bridge beetween the .357 and .44 magnum.

I didn't ask for your personal feelings on the J-Frame or how "enemic" (anemic) the .38spl is. If you don't like them, don't use them, and don't carry them, then please don't give me any "advice" on them.

And I certainly don't care for being spoken to like a child by some guy with a chip on his shoulder about J-Frames and .38spls.

Well... it seems YOU regret my choice far more then I do, and I'm willing to put forth the effort and make the best of it. And I don't have to "live with it" if it doesn't work out. What kind of advice is that?

No... it isn't.

Thanks, but no thanks.

Emory
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Honest Men Fear Neither The Light Nor The Dark[/QUOTE]

Absolutely. Unless your live in a rural area, are LEO or a testosterone filled sado-masochist, I believe most people want to CC a lightweight gun.

I'm finding out on my own that 110-130gr is the limit for me in a alloy frame snubbie. I tried some Hornady CD 110gr+P's once that didn't seem any heavier then the WWB 125-130gr target ammo I was shooting. I have some Corbon 125gr+P's now, but didn't try them yet.

Shot placement is King.

Penetration is Queen.

All else is dancing on the he head of a pin.

Ken

Never fails! Some people just have to argue about caliber.

Go somewhere else and argue!

And those of you advocating shot placement, OF COURSE!!

He made that point or weren't you paying attention!!

Chris642: In my 638 I carry the Speer 'short barrel" Gold Dot. It's a 135 gr bullet I think, but both bullet and powder are specifically engineerd for maximum effectiveness in snubbies. I've only fired a few rounds; the recoil isn't too bad, and in combat with adrenalin dripping from the end of my nose, I don't think I'd notice it. I practice with a 150 gr cast bullet and 3.2 grs of W 231.

And my point was that, yes!, he made that point!

My other point was that I didn't see a thing in the video (even though I thought it was well made and the info was well presented) that "just maybe . . . . . will put a stop to the caliber debate"

I still adhere to John Linebaugh's "bigger hammer" theory, whether the target is game or human.

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Georgia On My Mind

What makes you think I don't carry .38 J-frames?
I do. But I know their limits. Unlike you who IS asking for advice.

Your questions clearly indicate your asking for guidance from more experienced people on this Forum. I seem to fill that bill. You don't like my delivery of the facts?

When I was a Deputy Sheriff in Jackson County we frequently changed carry loads. Sometimes based on a "better" load, and sometimes based on supply and cost. I learned a long time ago within certain specs there was no one best load. It seems you'd like to think there is?

Emory

Emory

[/QUOTE]

I've heard about this round and seen it on Youtube. It seems quite impressive. I would like to try it but it looks like I will have to order online.

Yes, glad you got it.

His point is that with PROPER shot placement, caliber just doesn't matter.

And he also brought up a point which is seldom discussed in caliber wars. And that is the ability to hit effectively with follow up shots with your chosen caliber.

I believe there is a "best" .38spl SD load for an alloy snubbie as far as recoil and control go, as I found out through personal experience. I'm looking for the best compromise, and I'm narrowing my selections down to four. You say they are all "anemic" and it doesn't matter which load I use. These sound like comments from someone who doesn't use, or doesn't care about the .38spl, and are not very helpful to me.

For example, I've found the recoil on the Hornady 158gr standard pressure I tried was noticeably harsh compared to the 110gr from the same manufacturer, even their 110gr+P's were easier to handle. So it does indeed matter. Maybe not so much in the days of the old FBI load and full steel frame revolvers, but these light alloy/polymer guns are a different beast.

If your talking about which .38spl load has the best stopping power, that has little consequence for me if I can't shoot it well.

I listened again. Actually, for the third time.

I never heard him say that caliber "just doesn't matter," even with proper shot placement.

I don't think he even implied that. He said, in effect, if you can't control a .45, if all you can hit with a .45 is the wall, then you might well be better served with a 9mm. I agree with that.

I also heard him say, several times, "a bigger bullet is a better bullet."

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Georgia On My Mind

Yes but he showed the area of the body that we need to hit to get EFFECTIVE hits. He also compared the diameter of a few rounds. To me, he was talking about proper placement even though he didn't say it.

Yes, bigger is better. But only if you hit were your supposed to and only if you can control the firearm.

What he was trying to say is that the caliber argument isn't as important as shot placement.

Chris642,
I also carry the 135gr. +P Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel ammo in my 442. I don't think its all that bad as far as recoil and as Cyrano has already stated its made for the snubs. I like it because it hits targets at about the same place as my 158 gr. lead SWCHP practice loads.
Len

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Endeavor to persevere

Caliber bickering aside, I think his final comment was most important ... practice. In all actuality, how many handgun owners/carriers devote enough time to practice? Forum members excluded because we are in the minority. Without significant practice time to become competent with a chosen handgun, ballistics mean nothing.

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I'm with the banned ...

All this pointing makes me feel like I'm at a gunshow.

My take on it is this:

Sure placement matters, but I also want my bad shots to inflict damage. So while a .22 to the head is good, a .22 to the thigh may not be. A .45 to the head is good, and a .45 to the thigh might be very good too!

I figure 9mm is the least powerful round I want to use for self defense. Typically I believe in having 300ft/lbs or more of energy. However, some .38+P rounds can reach well past 300ft/lbs, so to say the .38 is a poor choice would not hold true for me. FOR ME, that is.

I carry what I like. I have a .380 in my truck (I think it is underpowered) and anything from a 9mm to a .45 on my hip. As long as I can hit what I want and it has enough power to damage, I'm happy.

Buffalo Bore's "+P" loads are pretty stout, especially from a small gun, and they do kick. I currently have their "standard pressure" 158 grain SWCHP loads in my Chief's Special. They're still pretty strong, compared to normal, modern .38 loadings (but apparantly about equal to the power level of standard ammo from 60+ years ago). They also make a "standard pressure" 150 grain hard cast wadcutter load at a respectable 850+fps (from a 2" revolver), which I have recently become intrigued with, but have yet to try. I believe it would be an excellent choice. Only way to find out if it is controllable for you is to buy some and give it a shot.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...t_detail&p=111

Getting something sufficiently fast/powerful/heavy to give proper penetration is just naturally going to cause higher recoil.

I think standard, "mid range" wadcutters are just too slow to sufficiently penetrate reliably, BUT, if all you can control are mid range wadcutters, they would be way better than misses with a .44 (or even hits with a .32!)

I watched the vid several times....

Caught a few tidbits of outhouse wisdom in there........

Confidence in your chosen caliber, along with the ability to deliver strike(s)
in the most advantageous region of the target area (i.e. center mass).

Sufficient velocity to obtain desired depth of penetration of
said round to deliver a degree of terminal ballistics to/on target area is a consideration.



On the other hand,
As some of old dogs, that have first hand experience with our favorite or less than favorite projectile launching platform.

Have developed strong opinions of what we feel works in most cases or will meet our own minimum requirements to do so.

Through decades of trial and errors, I have come the the end of the caliber debate for
my own personal choices of rounds and handguns to carry for same.


Years ago, after having success in saving my own hide...I thought the light weight hollow point Super Vel loading in 38 Special
as well as the .357 Magnum were the bee's knees.

After more first hand knowledge of how the fast hollow point
bullets worked and or more importantly, did not expand as advertized....
I dallied with the sharp shouldered SWCs in both solid and HP forms.

So after an almost half century of kicking all this around and around, what I have found...........Was this;


Shot placement is a great crutch to lean on and really looks good on the static firing range on the B-27 targets....
Not so pretty in real live after action reports.

Sometimes that perfect center mass opportunity never presents itself, the antagonist(s) is on the move...your moving, duckin', dodgin', etc...



**
I only tell this because it's what happens in the real world, (and the shooter wasn't injured all that bad).

Myself and two other officers were engaged by a single shooter...Our BG shoots several round at your's truly...
I take exception to that....jest about every time now'n days.

I return fire, hit BG in right forearm causing him to throw his gun down and give up the fight.


The point is...It's just hard to predict what will happen,
one or another will take a hell of a lot of stopping, others are just about ready to quit before it begins.


I have cartridge(s) and firearm(s) that I have personal or proven confidence in and carry 'em religiously,

I'm purty much fixed.


Su Amigo,
Dave

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

What mi amigo, Dave, said. End of discussion as far as I'm concerned.

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I'm with the banned ...

"That's All Folks"

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the world is round everywhere

keith44spl, I thought I was the only person who remembered SuperVel ammo!! I loved the .38 Super ammo.

I agree that shot placement is a huge factor, but I still like something with a little punch to it.
If you hit a man in the danglies with a bean flip he's going down, but it's much more interesting when a 45 ACP takes his danglies out through his backside.

[QUOTE My son (11) asked if his M&P15-22 would be a suitable defense weapon for him.

I told him it definitely would! And I went on to explain that he is comfortable with it, he is deadly accurate, it holds 25 rounds of 22LR, and no bad guy is going to stand and take the barrage of bullets coming from that thing.

My daughter (15) was scared by herself a few nights ago and grabbed my 4513 to keep by her side until I came home. Even though we have done some training work, she was unable to tell which third gen was the one she was used to, and she did not have the weapon loaded although the mag was full.

We immediately went through a learning session of loading and clearing the weapon, safety checks and handling. She found she could not easily operate the slide on the .45. She will stick with the M&P9 and for a back-up weapon I have a M&P22 available in the house. I also won't keep the third gens together as they look alike to the novice.

I think it is important to use a gun you are comfortable with no matter what the caliber. I have seen my kids squint and even look away when firing a larger hand gun, and I'd rather have them keep their eyes focused and aiming with a smaller gun. QUOTE]

Dern right!

Some of the best advice I've received on ammo is try several different brands and loads and see what shoots best through your gun. It might get a little expensive, but that's really about the only way you'll find out what works best for you.

Excellent presentation Kanewpaddle!
Thank you,

Beemerrider in Oregon

There are some kernels of wisdom in the video. Well, I like to shoot and go to the range 1 or 2 times per week. In particular I like to shoot the metal silhouettes of animals. When I take my 1911 45 ACP shooting 230 grain bullets the heavy targets go down quickly and with authority. No messing around. When I take a 38 spl the big heavy ones may or may not go down. But my 1911 weighs almost 3 lbs loaded my 637-2 is may be 17 oz loaded. Guess which one I carry? It's a compromise. Incidentally the 1911 has less recoil than the 637-2. Tell you what... that 1911 has some serious stopping power but it's too heavy and I do shoot the 637 well. When I carry the J frame goes with me. It is my personal choice. My remarks are not intended to influence anyone's choice. Yiogo

38 Special is not "enemic" (and quit YELLING!). The muzzle energy falls because of the short barrel used in snub J-frames. Longer barreled 38 Specials (4"-6") let the 38 Special develop the same 400+ lbs-ft of muzzle energy the other service rounds do.


Wadcutters suck as a defensive round, as has been shown by so many manufacturers so many times for so many years now. (Guys asks for a "magic bullet" as you put it, and you advise wadcutters???) WCs lack muzzle energy ("low recoil target round", as you put it)-that 148 gr wadcutter you recommend at 600 fps out of a snub offers 118 ft-lbs of ME. Hardcast won't expand, and soft lead WCs lead up the barrel fast.

To the OP: HPs were adopted to avoid overpenetration, use a modern HP to assure adequate penetration out of your 642. Do not use a "low recoil target round" for self defense in a J-frame. Such "advice" ignores 40 years and millions of dollars of research and development in bullet design. Speer's excellent Gold Dot Short Barrel load develops a reliable 860 fps out of a snub barrel for 222 ft-lbs of ME, and uses powders specifically for short barreled guns.

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Taste the wares, Email.

Ayoob has written that among standard pressure 38 Special rounds the Federal Nyclads stand out. He said that when police officers used them in their j-frames they were satisfied with the results on the street. They are not to be found on the internet right now but Federal says they will be making another run of them in Feb. I use them in my Ti j-frame.

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I like Ike.

Bottom line: Pick the largest round you can shoot well. Bigger is better, but not at the expense of reasonable accuracy/shooting speed. To borrow from an old competition saying, You can't miss fast enough to win.

Also keep in mind that you can train to become proficient with larger defensive rounds. Really, rounds like the 40 S&W and 45 ACP are pussycats.