UPDATED***Over Reacted last Night, Probably Over Thinking It Today.

sunnyd said:
Unless you are wearing a badge, retreat when possible.
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the way I read it ... this is what he did.
we might be in some shades of gray in the accepted norms where the drawn arm is concerned.
Under the circumstances stated, I don't feel the act was unreasonable ... risky perhaps, but not unreasonable.

Smoke ... you say that you didn't see the action directly, but only heard it ... right?
you had an estimate of location and no way of determining updated location of the person firing, nor intent.
You had no idea what you found yourself in, which you understand. What your overlooking is another set of unknowns on the way out during your retreat.
Passing though such dark territory is not a bad reason to have some steel in hand.
 
vito said:
And getting a gun drawn from an IWB holster, in the middle of the winter when wearing a heavy overcoat, is not the easiest task.
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To be perfectly honest I don't remember drawing.

I actually wear an OWB holster but believe it or not that gun was in my hand quick over coat and all.
 
"Probably over thinking it..."

I think that even very experienced LEOs, soldiers or others who are placed into stressfull situations regularly and more frequently than typical citizens still get faced with "I should have done XYZ". It's never fair to beat yourself up for doing something that you later think you could have done better. It IS fair to evaluate in detail and use that as a learning tool.

Take the "Heard a gunshot" thing for example. People call 911 all the time and describe how they heard gunshots, even describe the caliber and style of gun they heard. "I'm ex military and it sound like a large caliber handgun" or "I heard several 9mm rounds...sounded like a Glock" etc.

Maybe it's worthwhile and educational to actually familiarize ourselves with what all that stuff sounds like. Take a friend/shooter and several styles of guns of different calibers, and a few styles of firecrackers, out into the desert (assuming you have such an open space luxury). Have your friend go 25 yards or 50 yards or 100 yards in SOME direction (but don't tell you) while you're looking the other way. Have him fire one of the guns or light off one of the firecrackers (stay safe, of course). I'd bet that only a lucky guess would allow you (me, anyone) to actually get it right and say "That one was the .40cal, 25 yards, from THAT direction".

Place a bunch of concrete, automobiles, trees, ambient noise into the picture as in a typical urban or domestic scenario and it probably gets even harder to discern which is which. Plus, when we hear a gunshot while we're walking the dog, we're not expecting it like we are if we were doing the experiment above.

#1 good move I see described in the original post -

"taking time to look at the building address..."

NOTHING makes you feel worse than being at the end of a chase or retreat and then calling in and not being able to say where you're at. What I do when taking a recreational bike ride, horse ride, or just driving to the grocery store, is give a play by play to myself, as if I was telling my dispatcher about my pursuit - "Northbound Central from Washington" "Westbound 5600 block of East Pershing Ave" etc. Then if something horrible happens, or if I simply need to call the auto club, I know where I'm at. In shopping malls or apartment buildings, you can do the same thing. "West stairs building D" or "South entrance near JC Penny" or "East parking lot area W-3, two rows south of the McDonalds".

But don't ever beat yourself up. Leave that to the bad guys. Use every experience as a learning tool, not a "reinforcement that you didn't remember something you should have done".


Sgt Lumpy
 
SgtLumpy said:
#1 good move I see described in the original post -

"taking time to look at the building address..."
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Security guard training/ experience. First thing I note on any car is the plate number because even if I get the description horribly wrong (and it’s happened) if that plate number is right you have the car.

I make a point of noting building addresses too.

First thing I told the dispatcher.

My name is Smoke.

My Phone Number is

I am at 3790 Sandtrap drive at the intersection of First and Sandtrap.

I just heard shots, they sounded like they came from Second and Sandtrap.
 
I think this has been an educational thread.

One thing I've learned over the years is not to count on the 911 operator to know standard directions. Once I called in an accident on a freeway. I told the operator the accident was on the South-bound side of the feeeway about 1/2 south of exit X. She responded with, "Ok, which side of the road is the accident on? How far is the closest exit?" So, I told her again figuring she wanted confirmation. She then got frustrated and almost yelled at me, "What side of the road are they on?" The only reason I didn't hang up was beacuse I wanted to be sure the ambulance got there as quickly as possible.

Another time I called in something and they hung up on me. I called back and they actually appologized.
 
I dont blame you for pulling your gun. As far as your "training kicking in" in an ideal world youd have hit the deck or found cover but when many soldiers get into their first firefight it takes a second to realize whats happening and react.

As far as telling 911 what you were wearing...that i wouldnt have done.

Glad you made it out safely. Dont beat yourself up but good you are thinking about it.
 
checkmyswag said:
As far as telling 911 what you were wearing...that i wouldnt have done. .
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this is actually a good thing to do most of the time.
That description assists greatly in sorting out the white hats from the back hats when Law enforcement rolls up to see everyone runnin' around with a fistful of pistol.
the description may or may not make it to the responding officers, however if it does, it gives them one less person to shoot at when everyone looks like a legitimate target
 
Rastoff said:
One thing I've learned over the years is not to count on the 911 operator to know standard directions. Once I called in an accident on a freeway. I told the operator the accident was on the South-bound side of the feeeway about 1/2 south of exit X. She responded with, "Ok, which side of the road is the accident on? How far is the closest exit?" So, I told her again figuring she wanted confirmation. She then got frustrated and almost yelled at me, "What side of the road are they on?" The only reason I didn't hang up was beacuse I wanted to be sure the ambulance got there as quickly as possible.
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*
I think she wanted to know if it was the left or right side of the roadway, which does matter sometimes in terms of how the emergency vehicles approach the scene.
 
Thread Drift...

Too much information for dispatchers -

I hear our local PD dispatchers saying "There are no weapons in the house" when they give out a call. That absolutely ticks me off to no end. If that was the SOP in my department I would fight to get it changed. If that was what some individual dispatcher chose to communicate I would have words with them.

1) There's always a weapon in the house

2) Just because some caller says "there's no weapons in the house" doesn't mean there's no weapons in the house.

Last thing I want my front line cops to assume is "It's safe because the dispatcher told me there are no weapons".

So perhaps related to this thread, when the dispatcher asks "Do you see any weapons?" or similar, the response I give is "There could be" or "I'm not sure" or similar.


Sgt Lumpy
 
Doug M. said:
*
I think she wanted to know if it was the left or right side of the roadway, which does matter sometimes in terms of how the emergency vehicles approach the scene.
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I don't think that was the issue in my case. She was having trouble processing directions like South and West. If I had said right instead of south bound we might have got somewhere quicker. The problem is right is relative and West is absolute. So, in trying to be precise I only made things worse. The directions I gave should not confuse a 911 operator.

When talking to them, never speculate. Just say what you know. Saying, "I didn't see a gun", doesn't mean there isn't one.
 
checkmyswag said:
As far as your "training kicking in" in an ideal world youd have hit the deck or found cover
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I'm actually surprised I didn't. the last time something like this happened (At work one night close to the .50 range Ft. Carson, I walked out the door to get in the "patrol vehicle" just as someone opened up a .50 on the range) that's exactly what I did. I've also been known to hit the ground in Chuck-e- Cheese when a balloon pops. I'd even go so far as to call it a good thing because it means I'm not as tightly wound as I used to be.

checkmyswag said:
As far as telling 911 what you were wearing...that i wouldnt have done.
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As pointed out by Venom I want the responding cops to know exactly what I look like when they roll up on to what looks to me like a perfect ambush site in the dark expecting to find a bad guy with a gun. Which means they very likely will have their weapons drawn.

If at all possible I want them to know that the fat old guy wearing tan pants and a blue ski jacket with the dog is the guy that called the cops in the first place.
 
Smoke said:
I was out walking my dog last night. I was actually cleaning up after her when I heard what I am absolutely convinced was a gun shot from the parking lot at the end of the building, maybe 75 feet away. I actually remember thinking “Oh **** my wife is going to hear that and think it’s me.”



I’m not sure how to explain it but there was a second where I just kept cleaning up the dog mess before reality set in.



First thing I did was drop the poop bag (believe it or not my mind actually processed the decision to do so) and start moving out of the light and toward the building and away from the sound of the shot.



As I got to the side of building I heard two more shots in rapid succession. At that point I drew my gun and started scanning for threats.



I don’t know if my training kicked in or my mind was just working overtime but I remember actually reminding myself that I had no idea what was going on and that whatever it was I wasn’t getting involved unless someone pointed a gun at me. Then it occurred to me that the last thing I wanted was for someone to look out their window after hearing the shots and see me sitting there with a gun, so I put the gun in my pocket (which was a mistake if only because I could have lost it in the dark if it fell out of my pocket I should have put it back in the holster or kept it in my hand.)



Now I’m thinking the smartest thing for me to do is get the Hell out of Dodge, so I start backing down the building to the other end. As I came around the corner I ducked into the stairwell of the building and I remember taking time to look at the building address because I knew I was going to call the police as soon as I was under cover.



So I got into the building, dialed 911 and waited while the phone rang and rang and rang and rang and rang. The fact that it took so long for anyone to pick up had me a little freaked out and I was pretty shrill when I finally got someone on the phone but I gave her my location, the nearest cross street and told her what I had heard. I aslo told her where I thought the shots came from in relation to the known location (intersection)



She told me the police were on the way and to stay where I was. I told her that I thought the shots came from the building I was in and had no intention of staying there. I then told her exactly what I was wearing (making no mention of the fact that I was armed) in case the cops showed while I was getting back to my apartment and left the building.



On my way back to my building I could see where I thought the shots came from and I called 911 back told them who I was and that it didn’t appear that there was anyone where I thought I heard the shots from and that no more shots had been fired. They actually seemed upset at me for calling with the update.



And that’s the last I heard I don’t even know if the police ever showed up.



So, I think I over reacted by drawing my firearm and I think I panicked a little on the phone.



What do you guys think I did wrong?
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I think what you did was reasonable and motivated by your desire to be a good citizen. By the way, Happy New Year to you, sir.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Responses to this situation will vary depending on circumstances. For 35 years my response would have been to call 911, ID myself, and walk toward the sounds. Now, being retired and a senior citizen, I would have done a 180 and walked the other way. And you don't have to move towards trouble, if it's nearby it can find you. There will be plenty of others who will call 911 and the idea of becoming involved in a bad situation, with no authority, does not appeal to me. And consider this. At times dispatchers are overwhelmed with calls. If I called them at a time they were dealing with numerous other calls, giving them details about me, I'm not sure that information would be accurately be relayed to the responding officers. I'd hate to have my description mixed up with a suspect. In any of these situations we need to ask ourselves why are we getting involved.
 
venomballistics said:
this is actually a good thing to do most of the time.
That description assists greatly in sorting out the white hats from the back hats when Law enforcement rolls up to see everyone runnin' around with a fistful of pistol.
the description may or may not make it to the responding officers, however if it does, it gives them one less person to shoot at when everyone looks like a legitimate target
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Go ahead and give a description if you want. Might fit the shooter or there might be someone on the phone w 911 seeing YOU with a dark object (phone) in your hand calling 911 and reporting YOU as the shooter. Friend was doing a ride along with a cop the other day and there was a report of a guy with a rifle...they roll up on him, cop sees black object and draws on him. Wasnt a gun.

Way too many variables and while a crime is in progress or just happened, police work is chaos and not CSI.

Id make it very apparent i wasnt a threat to the police if they rolled up on the scene in other ways.
 
Last edited:
Chaos is right.last year,less than a mile from here,two depts responded to a shots fired call.A Leo from one dept didn't respond fast enough to a challenge from a Leo from the second dept.He was killed...
 
I'm surprised at all the people suggesting to not give a description of yourself. How is that a bad thing? I mean, sure, it might not get relayed to the cop on the scene, but if it does, it can only help you.
 
Rastoff said:
I'm surprised at all the people suggesting to not give a description of yourself. How is that a bad thing? I mean, sure, it might not get relayed to the cop on the scene, but if it does, it can only help you.
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And if it gets relayed incorrectly? Youve played the game telephone im sure.

Some of you all trust and trust in cops too much.
 
checkmyswag said:
And if it gets relayed incorrectly?
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So what? If you don't tell them at all, everyone is a bad guy when they arrive. At least by telling them you have a chance that they'll know who the good guy is when they get there.

I'll bet you don't sign the back of your credit cards either.
 
Rastoff said:
I'm surprised at all the people suggesting to not give a description of yourself...
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I am as well.

But of course, down at the cop shop, we have a computerized description and photos, and real-time black helicopter, satellite and traffic cam views of everyone, linked to their cellphone numbers. When you call, we can tell if you've shaved that day, what your Visa card balance is, and if you still owe on that old college tuition loan from 35 years ago.


Sgt Lumpy
 
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