Warning Shots

[Kanewpadle]

We've discussed them here a time or two.

Some see the need for them. Others don't

I'm one that doesn't care for them much.

But, I considered it today.

Across the street from where I work is a run down piece of property occupied by..... Let's just say "undesirables".

The have a dog. A medium sized dog.

He likes to try and bite people as they walk by on the side walk. He is not leashed and is quite aggressive.

We've been watching him for about a month now. Lunging and trying to bite. This afternoon he went after a young mother. She was pushing a stroller with another child in the other hand. The dog attacked nipping at the mother and youngster. The mother had nothing to fight back with as she tried to protect her children.

I ran out to help. But it was rush hour and trying to cross this four lane street is dangerous. So I stood there yelling at the dog. He never heard me.

So I considered a warning shot straight up in the air to scare him. I quickly thought otherwise because it probably wouldn't have done much good.

After what seemed like several minutes I was able to cross two lanes and wait in the center turn lane. The mother saw me and begged for help. I walked out into traffic with my arms up forcing them to stop.

I crossed the two remaining lanes and ran up behind the dog at which point he turned towards me. I yelled and waived my arms and kicked at him. Then I picked up a tree branch and swung it at him. He quickly ran away.

I really wanted to shoot him. But them again I didn't.

The mother hugged me and thanked me then went on her way.

As I was waiting for traffic to slow so I could cross the cops showed up. We talked and they went to look for the dog. They could not find him and I'm sure the low life owner was hiding the dog.

But that's ok. I called animal control and they will take care of the matter. Which what I should have done weeks ago.

[Protected One]

What do you think animal control will do?

[lethe]

Firing a round into the air most likely would have gotten you into trouble.

[Kanewpadle]

Originally Posted by Protected One

What do you think animal control will do?

The cops said it is important to document a trend. If the dog isn't caught eventually, the city can bring charges against the owner.

[Black_Sheep]

Discharging a firearm in the situation you described would most likely get you in trouble with the law.

(b) Willfully discharges any firearm, air gun, or other weapon, or throws any deadly missile in a public place, or in any place where any person might be endangered thereby. A public place shall not include any location at which firearms are authorized to be lawfully discharged; or

RCW 9.41.230: Aiming or discharging firearms, dangerous weapons.

[murphydog]

It sounds as though you had the noblest of intentions, but the only reason to shoot would have been to stop an actual attack already in progress by firing directly at the dog. Short of this, you would have been in more trouble than the dog owner.

[Kanewpadle]

Originally Posted by Black_Sheep

Discharging a firearm in the situation you described would most likely get you in trouble with the law.




RCW 9.41.230: Aiming or discharging firearms, dangerous weapons.

Appreciate the help. But you're telling me something I already know. And for the record, I would gladly risk getting into trouble to help someone from getting hurt.

Would I take a bullet? Only for family. But a dog is different.

[John R]

Good on ya for saving the day, and good on ya for not taking the chance of fireing your gun for no reason.

[Kanewpadle]

Originally Posted by John R

Good on ya for saving the day, and good on ya for not taking the chance of fireing your gun for no reason.

Thank you sir.

As I stated, I considered it. I knew the potential risk. The event happened very quickly. So I had to think quickly.

But you know that feeling don't you?

[gdnagle]

Originally Posted by Kanewpadle

The cops said it is important to document a trend. If the dog isn't caught eventually, the city can bring charges against the owner.

Around here animal control is a separate unit then law enforcement. This is who I would have called as It seems you live in a large city.

Originally Posted by Kanewpadle

So I considered a warning shot straight up in the air to scare him. I quickly thought otherwise because it probably wouldn't have done much good.

Remember what goes up must come down. Imagine what would happen to you if fate was against you and the projectile hit someone and killed or crippled someone. You would be paying for the rest of your life because of a dog that the animal control people should have taken of. Call them and report the dog and log all your calls and the people you talked to, then if you have to shoot the dog it may help you with your court case. Maybe some bear guard might be a better way to go in a city situation. With the traffic noise you say I doubt the sound of a gun shot would deter the dog as it is probably use to loud noises. Of course you could walk up and down that side of the street and when the dog comes after you, you could deal with it in a safe manor which ever you see fit, it would be nice to have your fellow workers videoing what is happening. Good luck and be safe.

[goinfshn]

Firing across a very busy highway is not only illegal, it is very dangerous. I would think that if you had even pulled your weapon, in WV that is brandishing. Discharging a firearm in city limits is also a violation. You definitely did the right thing and I commend you for it.
Gary

[Kanewpadle]

Originally Posted by gdnagle

Around here animal control is a separate unit then law enforcement. This is who I would have called as It seems you live in a large city.



Remember what goes up must come down. Imagine what would happen to you if fate was against you and the projectile hit someone and killed or crippled someone. You would be paying for the rest of your life because of a dog that the animal control people should have taken of. Call them and report the dog and log all your calls and the people you talked to, then if you have to shoot the dog it may help you with your court case. Maybe some bear guard might be a better way to go in a city situation. With the traffic noise you say I doubt the sound of a gun shot would deter the dog as it is probably use to loud noises. Of course you could walk up and down that side of the street and when the dog comes after you, you could deal with it in a safe manor which ever you see fit, it would be nice to have your fellow workers videoing what is happening. Good luck and be safe.

There will always be a lot of "maybe's" and "what if's" when dealing with a situation such as this.

And simple physics says that a bullet will not come back to earth anywhere near the velocity that it left the barrel.

But I understand your point.

Listen folks, I don't need an education here so save it. The reason I posted this is to show that it's not always easy to come to the aid of someone that needs help. I should have entitled the post a little different.

[ken158]

If you want to make a point with the dog owner and are not afraid of retribution, then go to the magistrate and make the complint yourself - have this lady come to court as a witness and see how this plays out. If your local code - laws are strong, I would expect a conviction. No guns necessary and brandishing or firing a warning shot would have likely gotten you arrested.

[breakerofwind]

Originally Posted by gdnagle

Around here animal control is a separate unit then law enforcement. This is who I would have called as It seems you live in a large city.



Remember what goes up must come down. Imagine what would happen to you if fate was against you and the projectile hit someone and killed or crippled someone. You would be paying for the rest of your life because of a dog that the animal control people should have taken of. Call them and report the dog and log all your calls and the people you talked to, then if you have to shoot the dog it may help you with your court case. Maybe some bear guard might be a better way to go in a city situation. With the traffic noise you say I doubt the sound of a gun shot would deter the dog as it is probably use to loud noises. Of course you could walk up and down that side of the street and when the dog comes after you, you could deal with it in a safe manor which ever you see fit, it would be nice to have your fellow workers videoing what is happening. Good luck and be safe.

Good advice. What goes up, must come down.

Sadly, a young girl was killed by a stray bullet in the state of Maryland. She stepped outside her house during the New Year's celebrations while some irresponsible gun owners in the next block were shooting into the air in jubilation. The bullet entered the top of her head and she collapsed on the porch. At first her parents thought she fainted from excitement but when they couldn't revive her they got her to the hospital. Even the doctor was puzzled by her condition until he felt the hole in the top of her head. She died there.

As individual gun owners we must all remember that we alone are responsible for wherever that bullet we shoot goes.

[Muss Muggins]

Originally Posted by Kanewpadle

And simple physics says that a bullet will not come back to earth anywhere near the velocity that it left the barrel.

Listen folks, I don't need an education here so save it.

I was going to stay silent on this until you got all uppity. I think maybe you do need an education. Every year, on New Year's Day, there will be at least one news story in this country about an innocent bystander killed by a bullet falling to earth from a New Year's Eve reveler. Simple physics says the lead round will fall to earth at 32 feet per second squared. Do a little more simple physics, and a basic internet search, and you will find that firing a round straight up in an urban area occasionally has consequences. If you are willing to accept the risks, so be it. In my humble opinion, it is very dangerous.

[CoMF]

I can sort of empathize. Our neighbor's g/f's dog (Shar Pei) charged clear across our property at my wife, stepson, and me while we were walking along the road. The thought of firing a warning shot had occured to me, but like you, I reasoned it'd have done more harm than good. Shooting the dog crossed my mind also, but that would've been a mess. Besides, it wasn't the dog's fault that her owner is an idiot.

So I ended up positioning myself in front of them in a defensive posture with my walking stick; I've been around dogs long enough to know not to show fear in situations like that. Dog ultimately stopped charging and didn't attack, but growled and gave me a mean look before running back to the aforementioned idiot owner. No worries, though, because I reported her (again) to the State Game Commission's Dog Warden for her inability to keep her dog on a leash. She ended up getting a court date and having to pay a fine, which was fine by me.

[CO_Kid]

Originally Posted by Kanewpadle

Appreciate the help. But you're telling me something I already know. And for the record, I would gladly risk getting into trouble to help someone from getting hurt.

Would I take a bullet? Only for family. But a dog is different.

I never advocate warning shots.

Two possible unintended consequences of that. 1- your round could have come down and killed someone. It happens.
2- you say you're willing to risk it. Washington is kinda liberal if you haven't noticed. I don't know WA laws, but it's possible that by being convicted of a gun crime, you become inelligible to possess firearms any more.

It's much easier to justify to a judge and jury why you INTENTIONALLY shot an aggressive dog versus trying to explain why you accidently shot and killed someone when your round came down into their head.

[Martya]

You do need a pattern established. I think sending a video to a local TV station and having them air it - "...nuisance dog..." "...neighborhood in fear..." "...Animal Control has been called several times..." etc., would get some fast attention from the LE / AC folks. Some of those TV news stations love that amateur video stuff. And it is quieter.

Good on you for helping out.

[Protected One]

Originally Posted by Martya

You do need a pattern established. I think sending a video to a local TV station and having them air it - "...nuisance dog..." "...neighborhood in fear..." "...Animal Control has been called several times..." etc., would get some fast attention from the LE / AC folks. Some of those TV news stations love that amateur video stuff. And it is quieter.

...and if that didn't work (at least in my old neighborhood) the owner would find the dog lying dead - shot by someone who just "happened" to be out walking with a silenced .22 on them.

[soccerguy83]

I also concur on bad move to think about shooting in the air, a 7 year old boy was killed here last New Years by celebratory gun fire.

Police seek person who fired shot that killed boy - Richmond Times-Dispatch: Ongoing-coverage

[eyegots2no]

I really hate to say this but----


Your whole (I know you are a good guy) approach, desire to help, being a good neighbor, chivalry, etc etc.----could

GET YOU LOCKED UP.

What if you ended up dealing with the dog owner----and then he accused you of assaulting him, or, lies and says you pointed a gun at him?

This could cost you thousands to deal with ---and you could lose your ability to have a chl or even own a gun---not being able to get a job.

Believe me---it happens.

[JohnSW]

In Minnesota, felonies include:

"(2) intentionally discharges a firearm under circumstances that endanger the safety of another; or

(3) recklessly discharges a firearm within a municipality."

[Rpg]

OP: you made very good decisions.

Good judgment is essential if you carry a firearm.

[CH4]

As others have mentioned, warning shots are not just a bad idea, they're illegal in most, if not all jurisdictions. In California it's considered a negligent discharge of a firearm (246.3 PC) and it's a felony.

As discussed in other threads, there is only one reason to pull your smoke wagon and that's to stop the immediate threat of death and or great bodily injury; however, missing your target doesn't count as a warning shot.

[Cal44]

Originally Posted by CoMF

I can sort of empathize. Our neighbor's g/f's dog (Shar Pei) charged clear across our property at my wife, stepson, and me while we were walking along the road.

My sister-in-law and her husband have owned several Shar Pei dogs.

When I first met her, she had a female Shar Pei, like most Shar Peis, which was very aggressive.

The dog never bit anyone, but would act threatening and bark her head off at anyone including me.

Then, that dog died and the replaced her with a male Shar Pei.

And what does this have to do with warning shots? Nothing.

That one was friendly, and always came to me, probably because he first met me when he was a pup.

When he grew up, he became a major coward.

I would take him on walks on a leash. Whenever we would meet anyone on the sidewalk the dog would go behind me and hide.

I would tell people that this was a Chinese fighting dog.

[Springfeildkid585]

Originally Posted by Kanewpadle

We've discussed them here a time or two.

Some see the need for them. Others don't

I'm one that doesn't care for them much.

But, I considered it today.

Across the street from where I work is a run down piece of property occupied by..... Let's just say "undesirables".

The have a dog. A medium sized dog.

He likes to try and bite people as they walk by on the side walk. He is not leashed and is quite aggressive.

We've been watching him for about a month now. Lunging and trying to bite. This afternoon he went after a young mother. She was pushing a stroller with another child in the other hand. The dog attacked nipping at the mother and youngster. The mother had nothing to fight back with as she tried to protect her children.

I ran out to help. But it was rush hour and trying to cross this four lane street is dangerous. So I stood there yelling at the dog. He never heard me.

So I considered a warning shot straight up in the air to scare him. I quickly thought otherwise because it probably wouldn't have done much good.

After what seemed like several minutes I was able to cross two lanes and wait in the center turn lane. The mother saw me and begged for help. I walked out into traffic with my arms up forcing them to stop.

I crossed the two remaining lanes and ran up behind the dog at which point he turned towards me. I yelled and waived my arms and kicked at him. Then I picked up a tree branch and swung it at him. He quickly ran away.

I really wanted to shoot him. But them again I didn't.

The mother hugged me and thanked me then went on her way.

As I was waiting for traffic to slow so I could cross the cops showed up. We talked and they went to look for the dog. They could not find him and I'm sure the low life owner was hiding the dog.

But that's ok. I called animal control and they will take care of the matter. Which what I should have done weeks ago.

Never fire up! What goes up, must come down. Put one in the dirt if you feel the need, but one in the sky with anything but scatter shot is reckless discharge. Remember, we're the good guys, and we have to account for every bullet.

[BE Mike]

First off, good job on helping the lady and children in distress. I think that a warning shot in this situation wouldn't have been the best course and that's why you didn't take it. Generally, I'm not in favor of warning shots, but in rare instances they may prevent escalation or when it is unclear who is the initiator of the wrongdoing. It could help the shooter of the warning shot to take charge of the situation and not have to resort to deadly force. I think if necessary, a warning shot should be made into a backstop of some kind and not into the air. I'd like to reiterate that in general, warning shots should not be fired; only under very rare and specific situations.

[CoMF]

Cal44,

I had a one-in-a-million chi that didn't turn into a miniature Cujo and wouldn't display aggression when you did things like pull food away from him. I think socializing him as a pup and the fact his parents weren't inbred (I got him from a reputable breeder) certainly helped.

I'm really glad I didn't shoot that Shar Pei. I would've felt terrible, and I've found that showing aggressive dogs you're not afraid of them deters all but the most determined and violent ones.

[federali]

If need be, fire a warning shot to scare off wild game where it is otherwise legal to discharge firearms. In more urban settings, warning shots should be avoided. The courts have considerable difficulty with any attempts to use deadly force in a non-deadly manner.

I think warning shots serve no purpose and in a popular 5-shot, J frame, there goes 20% of your firepower.

[ironhead7544]

You are handicapped. You go out your front door. You see your teenager taking a beat down from a mob. You yell but no effect. You cant run down there and even if you did you could not help due to your condition. You draw your legal pistol and fire one round into your lawn. The mob runs off. Your kid is saved.

How many years should you get in prison for firing that shot?


You can walk, but not to good. You have to use a cane due to injuries from Viet Nam. You walk out of WalMart after dark. The parking lot is well lit. You get charged by a mob, they are yelling and screaming. One is behind you and he hits you so hard you see stars and cant breathe. When the mob is in hand reach of you, you manage to draw your legal .45 auto. They scatter. You wonder what would have happened if they had not stopped. You wonder what would have happened if you did not have your 45. You wonder what would have happened if you had to shoot one of them. They would have run off, leaving you with a wounded or dead unarmed (possibly) "victim". You thought of firing a warning shot in the air but are glad you were not forced to. You call the police right away and report the incident.

[Florida J Frame]

Warning shots are always a BAD idea. You either need to stop an action NOW or you don't.

[old bear]

The only warning shot I have ever fired or will ever fire was a near miss!!!

[Rastoff]

I'm glad this turned out as it did and no one was hurt. Further, I'm glad you were willing to help. Far too many are not.

The "warning" shot would not have helped. The dog is used to a busy street and wouldn't be phased by a shot from 70' away.

Now, once you crossed the street and this happened:

Originally Posted by Kanewpadle

I crossed the two remaining lanes and ran up behind the dog at which point he turned towards me.

I think you should have at the very least had your gun out if not shot the dog. The situation could have gotten ugly really quickly. You knew it was aggressive, it was already lunging at others and now it's coming toward you. Shoot the dog.

I know many have a soft spot for dogs, I do too. However, I have a softer spot for little kids and their mothers. I don't think I would have taken a chance with this one. Of course I wasn't there so, this is only anecdotal.

[JohnSW]

Originally Posted by CoMF

I've found that showing aggressive dogs you're not afraid of them deters all but the most determined and violent ones.

My local German Shepherd was doing his routine "I'm on duty" barking, and he threw in a warning grown at me. I gave him a stern "No Growl!", and shook my finger at him. He stopped barking at me, and looked at me like "gosh, sorry".

[CoMF]

Originally Posted by JohnSW

My local German Shepherd was doing his routine "I'm on duty" barking, and he threw in a warning grown at me. I gave him a stern "No Growl!", and shook my finger at him. He stopped barking at me, and looked at me like "gosh, sorry".

Sounds about right. I imagine the poor guy must've had the saddest look on his face.

The FIL has a GS mix who likes to beg around the dinner table at Thanksgiving. I gave him a stern "NO! Go lay down!" and he sulked away into the living room, but not before turning around and giving me this heart-wrenching "Why you gotta be so mean to me?!" gaze.

[one eye joe]

KANEWPADDLE, YA DONE GOOD ! ! ! IT'S NEVER A GOOD IDEA TO FIRE A WARNING SHOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. IF YOU NEED TO PULL A GUN, IT SHOULD BE A MATTER OF LIFE OR DEATH. IF YOU DO KILL A HUMAN OR AN ANIMAL, IT MUST BE JUSTIFIABLE. I WOULD CALL THE COPS, EVERY TIME YOU SEE THIS DOG UNLEASHED, AND KEEP A LOG---DATE, TIME, OFFICER THAT YOU SPOKE TO. THE SQUEAKY WHEEL GETS THE OIL…………...

[KJS]

Originally Posted by lethe

Firing a round into the air most likely would have gotten you into trouble.

My thoughts exactly. The bullet will land somewhere, endangering safety. Either you need to fire your gun in self-defense or you don't need to fire your gun at all. Warning shots will only get you in legal trouble.

[CO_Kid]

Originally Posted by soccerguy83

I also concur on bad move to think about shooting in the air, a 7 year old boy was killed here last New Years by celebratory gun fire.

Police seek person who fired shot that killed boy - Richmond Times-Dispatch: Ongoing-coverage

I have watched those same fireworks from that same place. I also worked the extra duty police patrols there a couple years on July 4th.

When I was growing up in Erie, PA, a girl was shot and suffered permanent brain damage at the city's New Years Eve party from a round coming down into her head.

[JJEH]

Obviously the lady was in real trouble. You try to help and non of the motorists felt like slowing down to let you cross the street, since they didn't wanted to stop and help.

Anyways, firing a shot in the air doesn't do anything good. Will only get you into trouble.

A warning shot is basically an attempt to start a negotiation. During that attempt many things can go wrong. So, unless you are living way out in the country, I wouldn't fire a warning shot.

Regarding dog defense, all you want is the throat. BTDT. Think like an animal

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Aside from the inherert risks of firing a gun into the air, standing along side a multi-lane busy highway firing a gun is a good way to startle or panic a driver, cause an accident or get yourself run over. And there may be another good guy with a gun that only sees what he believes to be a crazy man firing a gun on the side of the highway, and does not see the lady/dog problem on the other side of the highway.

Knowing when to leave a gun holstered is every bit as important as knowing when to use it. Lots of things to consider in very brief moments.

Sounds like the situation was handled quite well.

[BE Mike]

One thing I've learned over the years regarding hard and fast rules, is that there aren't any.

[ironhead7544]

I am considering carrying one of those little blank guns as a BUG. The two situations in my previous post were real.

You might also consider carrying the Glasers or other frangable bullets. I know someone who fired a 380 Glaser 3 inches from a safe. The bullet split up and he wasnt hurt. These are also very light and lose their velocity fast.

[ironhead7544]

Originally Posted by BE Mike

One thing I've learned over the years regarding hard and fast rules, is that there aren't any.

+1 on that. When you have a split second to make up your mind, there are a lot of Monday morning quarterbacks out there willing to judge you.

[Kanewpadle]

I sincerely appreciate all the POSITIVE comments. I posted this as an example of the thought process that goes through one's mind when such a situation arises.

Armchair quarter backing aside, each situation will be different. Think clearly if you can.

[Club Gun Fan]

I don't know you, but it seems like no matter how much advise you get, you will do what you want. Go ahead fire you handgun, shotgun or bow and arrow at that dog. How far away were you? 100 feet? You do that where I live, your going to jail. The law is cut and dry. The only people here that can legally fire at an animal are uniforms, period. When you saw what was happening why didn't you dial 911. Didn't you say it was several minutes before you could cross the street. There may have been a Black & White around the corner. I can imagine the mayhem you would have caused firing a gun across four lanes of what sounds like very heavy traffic. Can you say multiple lawsuits here? Although your intentions seem admirable, they were wrong. You weren't in danger, the mother and baby were. I have faced lawyers in the past, most of them are really good at their work. I think a lawyer would have a field day with you on the stand. Maybe you should leave your six shooter at home.

[David R]

The fellow that taught me to shoot a hand gun suggested a warning shot to the forehead.

I suggest a meatball with sleeping pills dropped within his reach. Nobody knows.

Around here we call it SSS. Shoot shovel and shut up. I have a neighbor dog that is truly nasty. I have been dealing with it for a while. I have even spoken to the owner and showed her my pepper spray for Her Dog.

The meatball thing has been on my mind for a while. I could leave it in MY yard because she lets it out and he leaves a calling card.

I ride a bicycle or go for a walk every day. Right now I can't go left from my house because that dog. Its a problem.

David

[rwsmith]

It's good to discuss when to NOT use a gun.

The OP was on the edge but ready if the dog pressed his attack but ended up not having to use his so he gets the "Discretion Award".

They have some rules here about dog bites, some get a second chance, but if a dog bites a person he's got three feet in the grave.

[Club Gun Fan]

Originally Posted by David R

The fellow that taught me to shoot a hand gun suggested a warning shot to the forehead.

I suggest a meatball with sleeping pills dropped within his reach. Nobody knows.

Around here we call it SSS. Shoot shovel and shut up. I have a neighbor dog that is truly nasty. I have been dealing with it for a while. I have even spoken to the owner and showed her my pepper spray for Her Dog.

The meatball thing has been on my mind for a while. I could leave it in MY yard because she lets it out and he leaves a calling card.

I ride a bicycle or go for a walk every day. Right now I can't go left from my house because that dog. Its a problem.

David

David
Another "Act first, think later." Can you say Civil Suit? You have posted your intentions here which are public records. Depending on which state you live in and you go to a jury trial, pray you don't have animal lovers on the jury.

[BE Mike]

I hope that this isn't too far off topic, but we had a problem dog in our neighborhood. It attacked some folks who were walking their dogs and others who were passing by. This was not on private property. The owner wasn't cooperative with neighbors or animal control. The matter went to county court and the dog was not only banned from the neighborhood, but the county. Animal control said that if there was any other problem with the dog, it would be put down. They also said that incidents with problem animals should be documented. This whole process took a few months, but the problem was eventually solved.

[user151]

Originally Posted by Club Gun Fan

..... You do that where I live, your going to jail. The law is cut and dry. The only people here that can legally fire at an animal are uniforms, period. .......

You are wrong about Massachusetts law, you can kill a dog that is attacking you or another person - see MGL chapter 140 section 156 ...
https://malegislature.gov/Laws/Gener...140/Section156