Mouse Gun for Self Defense

[Bill Lear]

I always invite others to seek out and view these sorts of videos because they show us in just a few frames what a thousand words cannot.
The gun used was a 5-shot .32 caliber revolver, and the defender put all five into the bad guy. Next time somebody tells you what a .32 can't do...believe them, or your own "lying eyes!"

Grandson Fights Grandfather Over Family Dispute - YouTube

On first impact the attacker ceased all further attacking motion - that's the definition of a "one shot stop."
When shot two impact the man's arms were already "defensive" as he began to turn away, and even as the last three hits landed, his body had lost all coordination as he fell.

[Beemerguy53]

In the course of my career, I literally saw more people shot than I can remember. I never saw a rifle or shotgun wound, but I saw handgun wounds with almost every caliber imaginable, in almost every part of the body. There were two indelible lessons I learned:

1. Shot placement is more important than caliber.

2. I don't ever want to be shot with ANYTHING.

[tops]

[QUOTE=Beemerguy53;141670575

1. Shot placement is more important than caliber.

[/QUOTE]

I've never shot a person but from shooting animals I've decided that a brain or spine shot it goes down. A bullet anywhere else and it takes awhile to go down. A .22 in the brain will drop a 1500 lb. cow deader than 4 o'clock. Larry

[chief38]

Any caliber can be deadly! The whole concept of shooting a bad guy is to STOP THEM as fast as possible. Stop them from the attack, not necessarily to kill them. Larger calibers, faster bullets, better expansion all contribute to better and faster stops - it's just a percentages game. YES - shot placement is also key! That doesn't mean someone who was shot in a non vital organ area with a .22 short won't die hours later from bleeding out - but the idea is to stop them asap so they don't continue doing harm!

The video was taken down by YT and so I did not view it. Threads like this do come up from time to time and just because bad guys have died from .22, .25, .32, calibers mouse guns does not mean they are prudent to carry in most situations. Their only great attribute is size and light weight IMHO.

I've witnessed terrible accidents where people have walked away while driving cars with no air bags and no seat belts. I have also witnessed people driving new model cars with air bags, seatbelts and other safety equipment that have not fared so well. I've actually got a friend that went down on a motorcycle years back at about 55 mph. Aside from being a bit scraped up and in shock, he walked away. I also had another friend I used to ride with that went down on a motorcycle exiting a parking lot at only 12-15 mph after being cut off by a truck, slid on the road surface, slammed his head into the curb and died hours later. While he was wearing a helmet, it was not a DOT or SNELL rated one and did nothing to protect him. Had he been wearing the proper helmet he would have ridden his bike home!

So back to ballistics..... I want the highest percentage chance of accomplishing what I need to if that situation ever comes up. In my mind, the larger, more powerful guns and calibers give me a better change (percentage wise) than smaller ones. For those who tout how their shot placements are so good, remember, one can NEVER predict what is going to actually happen, when, where or how. While I am a huge proponent of practice and familiarity, we never know quite what the situation will be and how good shot placement we will be able to achieve at that particular second, if your hands are being attacked, have to shoot through a barrier or wall, etc. We just don't know! Yea, a .25 with you all the time beats the 44 mag you left in your safe, but there is a happy medium! While I am certainly not into carrying an L or N frame 357 Magnum (too powerful for populated areas, too heavy and too bulky for EDC / CCW) and I'm not into mouse guns either. I've settled on a 17.6 ounce Sig P365 (9mm) that rides in my pocket or on my hip daily. Never too big or heavy to have to leave home and powerful enough with enough capacity to get the job done if I ever had too. To me a sensible compromise that I have confidence in. I want to minimize the "luck factor".

[BSA1]

While bullet placement is critical don’t confuse being lethal with stopping power. It will be of small comfort to your family and loved ones if your attacker dies 30 minutes after you do.

[Borderboss]

You hit the bad guy in just the right place in the chest with any caliber and he'll go down. You miss that "right place" by an inch, and that mouse caliber could be pretty useless. I'm not about to dump my 9mm and .45s for a .32.

[sigp220.45]

I had no trouble viewing the video, just had to sign in to Youtube.

Its in Brazil, so maybe folks are limited to small calibers. That first round to the chest definitely turned the tide in Grandpa’s favor.

In my experience anything can work and anything can fail. In this case, that .32 worked very well indeed.

I carry a .32 when the mood hits me. No worries about it at all.

[Beemerguy53]

Originally Posted by BSA1

While bullet placement is critical don’t confuse being lethal with stopping power. It will be of small comfort to your family and loved ones if your attacker dies 30 minutes after you do.

There was a situation exactly like that some years ago in suburban Baltimore. Robber enters gas station with a .357 Magnum revolver...gas station owner draws his .380 pistol and shoots robber...robber then kills gas station owner...robber then dies...

[Marshal tom]

I am not and never have been a proponent of mouse guns. Now a days, there are just too many .380 and above caliber handguns that are very easy to carry and conceal with better sights, more capacity and much easier to shoot accurately, especially at any distance. Ken Hackathorn said that mouse guns are the perfect gun for the person who never plans to use it. Any gun is better than no gun but I often think of missed shots, multiple attackers and the possibility of having to reload in the case of a malfunction. I sometimes carry a 5 shot snubby but more often than not one of my bigger guns with better sights, more capacity etc.

[ralph7]

Originally Posted by Bill Lear

I always invite others to seek out and view these sorts of videos because they show us in just a few frames what a thousand words cannot.
The gun used was a 5-shot .32 caliber revolver, and the defender put all five into the bad guy. Next time somebody tells you what a .32 can't do...believe them, or your own "lying eyes!"

Grandson Fights Grandfather Over Family Dispute - YouTube

On first impact the attacker ceased all further attacking motion - that's the definition of a "one shot stop."
When shot two impact the man's arms were already "defensive" as he began to turn away, and even as the last three hits landed, his body had lost all coordination as he fell.

Are you saying this video proves something?

[chief38]

IMHO, how any particular bullet interacts with a human body depends on a multitude of factors. Caliber, speed, expansion, penetration, what part of the body the bullet hits (vital organ or not) and other items such as what the person is wearing.

While shot placement is very very important, a shot could be placed in the correct vital area and just not penetrate enough to hit that organ. On the other hand, if a bullet just makes a clean hole in flesh, the bad guy could still have the stamina to cause so much more harm! So that is why its important to me to not only have great shot placement (if you can at the time) you need a bullet that can get the job done as well.

[somorris]

I think most folks here prefer a little more punch than possible with a mouse gun, but we need to also remember that not everyone has the financial resources that we may have. Sometimes you have to get by with what you can afford. That looked like it could have been the case for the guy in the video. Besides that, can you even imagine shooting your own grandson? What a tragedy!

[Shrek Of The Arctic]

Seems to me that everything is relevant and has a place.

When I'm out mowing my yard or just doing house chores around my kinda between suburban and rural home, I'm just fine with a NAA .22 in my pocket. It's convenient and certainly adequate for an aggressive dog, rabid fox, etc.

When out around my small town getting groceries in my small town, being just another J frame guy seems pretty adequate.

When I have to go into the big city, I tend to carry a full size weapon concealed. N frame revolver, full size Glock service pistol, etc.

A mouse gun to me is not useless, but it is clearly far from ideal. If I have it on me, I strive to be aware of whether another family member is available to get a long gun from the house, if there is an axe, hammer, pickaroon, etc. nearby.

[10Mad]

I carry a mouse gun because I can carry it all the time. As in all the time, morning till night. I may switch to something else when going out but if I’m awake with pants or shorts on I will have at least my P32 in my pocket. I live in the country with coyotes and crack heads. During the day I wear just shy of a full suit into places that don’t like my kind. I love my wife and I love my daughter so I am obligated to come home. If I talk to 100 people with a ccw, or now being in a CC state I will bet good money less than 10-15% could produce their “suitable for concealed carry” piece on demand. It’s always well it’s in the truck, or my back hurt today, or I was just going to get milk so…..

Like Tuco say, if you’re going to shoot, shoot. Don’t talk.

[VaTom]

Originally Posted by somorris

I think most folks here prefer a little more punch than possible with a mouse gun, but we need to also remember that not everyone has the financial resources that we may have. Sometimes you have to get by with what you can afford. That looked like it could have been the case for the guy in the video. Besides that, can you even imagine shooting your own grandson? What a tragedy!

Recently researched Federal Punch 22lr self defense ammunition. From what I read it has as much or more penetration than .25 or .32 ammo. Nickel coated flat nose 29 grain bullet and over 1,000 fps out of a 2" barrel. Worth looking at. There are excellent and reliable 22lr revolvers and pistols out there. I have a S&W 63 revolver and a Ruger SR22 pistol and would not not hesitate to carry with the Punch ammo if that was the only firearm I owned.

[Duckford]

Originally Posted by VaTom

Recently researched Federal Punch 22lr self defense ammunition. From what I read it has as much or more penetration than .25 or .32 ammo. Nickel coated flat nose 29 grain bullet and over 1,000 fps out of a 2" barrel. Worth looking at. There are excellent and reliable 22lr revolvers and pistols out there. I have a S&W 63 revolver and a Ruger SR22 pistol and would not not hesitate to carry with the Punch ammo if that was the only firearm I owned.

Sounds like a gigantic lie. Weight and sectional density have always been the proven winners in terms of penetration in flesh, meaning that a 40 grain 22 bullet will out penetrate a 29 grain 22 bullet in 22 at the same energy.

In fact, a 29 grain bullet in 22lr, marketed for combat, sounds to be a gigantic gimmick that comes out of some marketing department with people who have no concern with those who might carry it and rely on it. People who think everyone just buys them to plink cans with.

How it could outdo 25 ACP or 32 ACP is questionable to unbelievable. And how cheap is a novelty "22 self defense round" compared to regular ball in a center fire alternative? You are probably better off with a center fire. 22lr's ONLY advantage is price for practice. Otherwise it is always the worse choice.

Stick to e reliable, well known, old fashioned 40 grain round nose that you can buy cheap and prove in your gun. If you want to take the 22lr route. Don't be selling the cow for magic beans.

As for mouse calibers, they can win fights. Just keep in mind that there are many real life situations where a bigger, more destructive bullet that penetrates deeper and more consistently will win a fight where a smaller bullet with less penetration and doing less effective damage will not. Sometimes bullets don't get to the heart of the matter, or fail to bleed something fast enough. Carry your mouse gun with confidence, but don't lie to yourself that"they are all the same".

[biku324]

A 22 rimfire with a 29 grain bullet and standard case is exactly the old 22 long. Not carrying either if there's any more realistic choice (unless I plan to never use the sidearm). The Punch promises 1,070 fps, Winchester long is 770 fps, while the CCI high velocity long is 1,215 fps.

Not a 9mm fan, but for a while in policing and occasionally contracting in places where there were real risks of needing a sidearm under existing ROD (the military has ROE, but their role is different) I've carried 9s and was happy to have one.

[BB57]

Originally Posted by VaTom

Recently researched Federal Punch 22lr self defense ammunition. From what I read it has as much or more penetration than .25 or .32 ammo. Nickel coated flat nose 29 grain bullet and over 1,000 fps out of a 2" barrel. Worth looking at. There are excellent and reliable 22lr revolvers and pistols out there. I have a S&W 63 revolver and a Ruger SR22 pistol and would not not hesitate to carry with the Punch ammo if that was the only firearm I owned.

I have a Bobcat and plan to do some testing with various types of “self defense” .22 LR, but it will be hard pressed to beat its .32 ACP Tomcat sibling. A 75 gr hard cast .32 ACP at 764 fps with 27” penetration in 10% ballistic gel.

There’s no expansion at all, and in fact the bullet looked pristine, except for the rifling marks. But that’s a .312” diameter 27” hole. That’s equivalent to a .22 LR bullet *immediately* expanding to 140% of its starting diameter and then penetrating 27”.


Based on what I seen in other people’s ballistic gel tests, Federal punch .22 LR does a pretty good job penetrating 12-14” in most short barrel handguns. But it doesn’t expand so it’s a 40% smaller hole limited to have the penetration distance. Fen if 12” is enough, it’s a smaller hole and a smaller wound channel.

The thing that can offset that is the higher rate of fire and the potential to create more wound channels in the same amount of time.

[Kanewpadle]

Tried mouse guns. Several as a matter of fact. Don’t like them. Don’t trust them. These days a small revolver can do it better than any mouse gun.

Just my opinion.

[LCC]

Bit of a digression but relevent to impact. Don, a sportsfishing captain at the federal port I patrolled during the early 70's, was known as a highly decorated Korean War Marine wounded badly at the Chosin Reservoir Battle.
One afternoon, ran into Don at the local pub, and after a couple of drinks asked him about Korea.
Don said his squad were pinned down and getting torn up by a machine gun nest, so he belly crawled as close as he could, then stood up and charged the nest wth a grenade, flipping it into the nest before hits took him down. Woke up in Japan a month later with ribs and guts missing, a Silver Star presentation while in bed, and two years of recuperation ahead. Surgeons told him he was a miracle survivor.
Then Don he lifted his shirt and turned before slippig it back down.
Ragged holes in his chest and stomach the size of quarters, exit caves on his back the size of lemons. Some years later a Sheriff friend who covered shooting investigations told me he'd seen men killed by .22's, and men who survived multiple rounds of large caliber, and he attributed it to the varying degrees that some folks can handle shock, or not. Probably as good a reason as any.

[chief38]

IMHO a .380 would be the bare minimum for EDC. I do consider the .380 to be a "mouse gun" and somewhat effective with a lucky shot or multiple hits. The main attraction is the small size, light weight and high capacity of something like a Ruger LCP Max (10+1) which I think is one of the better .380 pistols. Don't think I could ever bring myself to carry anything less.

Anything less than .380 is gambling, just my opinion.

[URIT]

My neighbor, who works at the local range, confidently carries a NAA .22 magnum in his back pocket. His thinking is if the threat is within bad breath distance then a shot to the snotlocker will take care of the problem.

I bought a Colt Junior .25ACP "Mighty Mouse" for a backup gun. I sold it within a month. I could never get a good combat grip on the pistol.

I replaced it with a Colt DS and carried it in a Roy Baker pancake holster for more than 3 decades. I could get a solid combat grip on that gun, which gave me confidence that I could work the gun while fighting for my life.

[Pointblank2U]

Maybe I Was Wrong About Pocket Pistols - YouTube

[BB57]

Originally Posted by chief38

IMHO a .380 would be the bare minimum for EDC. I do consider the .380 to be a "mouse gun" and somewhat effective with a lucky shot or multiple hits. The main attraction is the small size, light weight and high capacity of something like a Ruger LCP Max (10+1) which I think is one of the better .380 pistols. Don't think I could ever bring myself to carry anything less.

Anything less than .380 is gambling, just my opinion.

Not all .380 ACP or .32 ACP handguns are equal. .380 ACP takes a much bigger hit in a shorter barrel than 9mm, and that’s even more the case with .32 ACP. In

The same goes for hollow point bullets. In both cases a hollow point has a fairly narrow velocity envelope where it will expand and still give decent penetration.

Here is a Walther PP with its 3.9” barrel and chambered in .32 ACP.



This are a pair of Hornady 60 gr XTP hollow points fired at right around 1000 fps. Penetration is about 11 1/2 to 11 5/8”, with the bullet getting pulled back a bit from maximum penetration.





Bullet expansion isn’t spectacular but it’s consistent and more importantly not so excessive that it significantly under penetrates.

The 90 gr XTP in .380 ACP doesn’t perform that much differently, with penetration in the 12-13” range and comparable expansion, but will do it in the slightly shorter 3.4” barrel of the PPK or PPK/S.

——

Now folks might choose to make a huge deal of the above .32 ACP bullets coming up 1/2” short of the FBI minimum standard. But that’s a bit of a red herring. Armed citizens are not shooting at fleeing felons, shooting through barriers, or shooting at other than face to face aspect angles as all of those things most often either start to diminish or entirely remove the presence of an imminent threat.

Folks might also indicate the larger .380 diameter and the comparably larger expanded diameter compared to .32 ACP makes a difference. Well…maybe. You also have to consider that the .32 ACP has much less recoil and in comparable pistols can be fired much faster with greater accuracy, and in comparable pistols the .32 ACP offers an extra round.

In other words, are two .380 ACP bullets more effective than three .32 ACP bullets fired in the same limited time frame? It’s 50% more wound tracks and 50% more chance of getting a cardio pulmonary or CNS hit.

[OLDSTER]

My EDC. .32acp. I feel well protected.

[brucev]

Live in a small city. Deal with lots of folks on the street. Often they come to the church because they need help... food, clothes, etc. Seldom is a problem. Over the last two years, have had three people who got angry, belligerent when for whatever reason we could not meet their needs. My volunteers are all senior citizens, certainly not in any condition to defend themselves or protect anyone else from an assault. I routinely handle these situations. All interviews take place outside the building. I almost always have a little PPK/S in my pocket. I've shot it enough DA/SA to know that I can hit effectively even without a good grip, etc. Will retire the end of Sept. That little PPK/S will continue to go in my pocket when I'm out and about for the same reason it is in my pocket as I prepare to leave and head out for the office. It was with me yesterday while dealing with a family situation, later when at a lunch meeting and then last night at a committee meeting. Very much doubt anyone had any inkling that I was armed. I figure that is what CC is all about ... don't attract attention by odd dress, accidentally printing, etc. Have near at hand ready to go if need be. Sincerely. bruce.

[SJshooter]

I don't see the need to carry a smaller caliber - we are in the age of micro compact 9mm guns like the P365. When you can have 10+1 of 9mm in a package that small, you really have to wonder why you would carry a mouse gun.

The video showed an effective surprise use of a lower caliber against an apparently unarmed individual. However, had the assailant had his own gun drawn (think of a robbery situation), then I don't think we would call this "stopping power", as the bad guy would be not only inclined, but likely able, to return fire. I don't consider it stopping power if they guy has the ability to return fire. I'd rather he drop like a stone on the first shot.

[biku324]

The only human beings I've seen 'drop like a stone' to small arms were head shots by M4s.

[USMCshooter]

I live in FL, and sometimes dressing around a belt carried gun is miserable (HOT). And having to dress up/down as I go about my days is no fun either. For this reason, I always carry an LCP Max in my front pocket. I still often carry a Shield+ IWB or OWB, but not overly concerned when I choose not to.

[Duckford]

Originally Posted by BB57

Not all .380 ACP or .32 ACP handguns are equal. .380 ACP takes a much bigger hit in a shorter barrel than 9mm, and that’s even more the case with .32 ACP. In

The same goes for hollow point bullets. In both cases a hollow point has a fairly narrow velocity envelope where it will expand and still give decent penetration.

Here is a Walther PP with its 3.9” barrel and chambered in .32 ACP.



This are a pair of Hornady 60 gr XTP hollow points fired at right around 1000 fps. Penetration is about 11 1/2 to 11 5/8”, with the bullet getting pulled back a bit from maximum penetration.





Bullet expansion isn’t spectacular but it’s consistent and more importantly not so excessive that it significantly under penetrates.

The 90 gr XTP in .380 ACP doesn’t perform that much differently, with penetration in the 12-13” range and comparable expansion, but will do it in the slightly shorter 3.4” barrel of the PPK or PPK/S.

——

Now folks might choose to make a huge deal of the above .32 ACP bullets coming up 1/2” short of the FBI minimum standard. But that’s a bit of a red herring. Armed citizens are not shooting at fleeing felons, shooting through barriers, or shooting at other than face to face aspect angles as all of those things most often either start to diminish or entirely remove the presence of an imminent threat.

Folks might also indicate the larger .380 diameter and the comparably larger expanded diameter compared to .32 ACP makes a difference. Well…maybe. You also have to consider that the .32 ACP has much less recoil and in comparable pistols can be fired much faster with greater accuracy, and in comparable pistols the .32 ACP offers an extra round.

In other words, are two .380 ACP bullets more effective than three .32 ACP bullets fired in the same limited time frame? It’s 50% more wound tracks and 50% more chance of getting a cardio pulmonary or CNS hit.

The only responsible and real choice in 380 on down is ball.

[sigp220.45]

Originally Posted by Pointblank2U

Maybe I Was Wrong About Pocket Pistols - YouTube

Good video. Thanks.

.32 calibers always seem to punch above their weight.



I don’t know why and I don’t care. If I was still likely to shoot at people in cars I wouldn’t carry a .32, but I’m not. I don’t care if my Beretta Model 81 is bigger than a P365 because I like my Beretta.



It really doesn’t matter. I still carry a gun because I like guns and it gives me an excuse to buy more guns. If I actually have to pull one again in defense of myself or others I’m sure my .32 (or .380 or .38 or 9mm or .357 or .45) will do just fine.

I’m about to head out onto the mean streets of my whitebread Colorado town and I believe one of my .32s will get the nod today. Wish me luck.

[Bald1]

How old does one have to be to be a Fudd? I’m pretty sure I qualify unless there are age restrictions. I’ll be 54 next month. That being said, I retired my .32 Tomcat with Crimson Trace laser grips for a P365. It’s not that I don’t trust the .32 to perform. It’s reliable and very accurate. But the Sig gives me more and bigger rounds. It’s also half the price to practice with. I’ve also been known to carry a .22mag mini revolver and .25 Baretta.

[ruger 22]

I find this to be a most interesting thread and fully respect everyone's views. I would like to add, however, that the lowly 22 is far from useless and its handling may be all some people are capable of. I really do not know but I would guess that most of you have never been hit by a bullet----I have and it was a 1944 vintage Remington lo-vel 22lr target solid out of a 2" High Standard Sentinel revolver. It struck into my left armpit and went up into my neck and lodged very close to my spinal chord and faced in the opposite direction of its entry---so it tumbled. The doctor said the wound channel measured 17 inches. I was knocked to the ground with much authority and it took me about 15-20 seconds to realize I had been hit. My arm felt like it was a hit funny bone and I was not able to do much with it for at least a full minute. I know the 22lr is not ideal but it can take the fight out of you at least for a while.

[LCC]

So what is considered the most reliable .32 mouse gun?

[VictorLouis]

I have the double-stack version of what SigP220 pictured above. The gun is so easily controlled, you can manage repeated hits faster, and more accurately.

[BE Mike]

I really don't like the term "mouse gun". It isn't specific and confusing. I've had someone at a range call my Beretta 92FS Brigadier a "mouse gun".

[Muss Muggins]

Originally Posted by LCC

So what is considered the most reliable .32 mouse gun?

I’d take my Kel Tec, but that’s just me . . .

[Backlighting]

During Army Basic Training we were advised 2 shots in the chest plus 1 in the head...if the situation cooperates.

[hyena]

I'm still not sure what qualifies as a mouse gun. Based on size, my Bodyguard .380 is a mouse gun, as was my first gen LCP before it. But when I saw the ballistics test results for the Hydrashock Deep, how it met the FBI standard for penetration and expansion, I switched to that as my carry round. That round sure doesn't perform like a mouse gun.

[sigp220.45]

“Mouse gun” is just a derisive nickname given to small caliber carry guns by big bore boys.

I wouldn’t think a .380 or snub .38 Special would be considered one. A .25 or .22 - yes. A .32, maybe by someone who doesn’t know better.

[Cal44]

Originally Posted by LCC

So what is considered the most reliable .32 mouse gun?

Probably a 31-1 Smith and Wesson revolver.

[Bald1]

I think most people would say Seacamp or Tomcat in current production. But there are some fine “older” .32s

[Wyo]

Originally Posted by LCC

So what is considered the most reliable .32 mouse gun?

I have a Beretta 81 that I sometimes pack. It’s a bit chunky in the grip but holds 12+1 and is one of the most reliable handguns I’ve ever owned. That thing just does not quit. And I have a really nice old Colt 1903 in .32 that seems just about as good but I don’t shoot it as often.

[10Mad]

Always remember that there is a trade off between size of gun, caliber choice and ability to control. I’ve killed many things in my life and often times it has taken more than 1 shot. If you can’t quickly put the second shot on top of the first shot then you have a problem. The Mozambique drill is the gold standard of shooting and some smaller guns make that very difficult. Full size pistols are good for this but as you go smaller a man has to know his limitations.

[Marshal Too Sweet]

I've been shot up some over the years. Never crossed my mind what caliber it was, they all hurt really bad. Real pain usually comes about 45 seconds to a couple of minutes, so you need to put them down as quick as possible.

[petepeterson]

Originally Posted by SJshooter

I don't see the need to carry a smaller caliber - we are in the age of micro compact 9mm guns like the P365. When you can have 10+1 of 9mm in a package that small, you really have to wonder why you would carry a mouse gun.

While I agree with your premise, there is a vast difference between carrying my 365 and my Kel-Tec. At least at my body size.
While the li'l 380's is smaller, both have a role for me. Especially in the summer.

[petepeterson]

Originally Posted by sigp220.45

I’m about to head out onto the mean streets of my whitebread Colorado town and I believe one of my .32s will get the nod today. Wish me luck.

I surely hope you picked that pretty' 03 for your travels. Dillinger would approve.
Not that your little Italian friends are ugly......

[petepeterson]

Originally Posted by OLDSTER

My EDC. .32acp. I feel well protected.

You certainly are.
And that pistol is a nice back-up!

[haywood]

We have all heard the stories how a guy took shotgun hits and kept coming. Then there is stories of just the sight of a gun made the attacker turn and run. I have also heard 22’s kill more than any other caliber. I guess what you can afford, handle/carry, and make decent shots with, is the best for you. I carry 38 and 9. Lots of people carry bigger and smaller. What ever works for you. As long as you always carry.

[BB57]

Originally Posted by Duckford

The only responsible and real choice in 380 on down is ball.

Why is that?

Do you have a logical and rational explanation or is it just repeating what you’ve been told?

Let’s take the 60 gr and 90 gr XTP examples above as a starting point for you to educate me on what I have so obviously missed.

The .32 ACP 60 gr XTP under penetrated by .5” in the gel test above. Is that enough difference to make a difference?

The 90 gr XTP from the .380 didn’t under penetrate at all. Why would a ball round be “the only responsible and real choice” for .380 ACP when some .380 ACP hollow points demonstrate both reliable expansion and at least 12” penetration?

Let’s also look at this 75 gr hard cast round nose flat point bullet fired from a .32 ACP. That’s 27” of penetration. That’s typical for both .32 ACP and .380 ACP jacketed ball and hard cast bullets.

27” is enough penetration to exit the skinny assailant you just shot and hit and wound a bystander behind him. Explain to me how ball and hard cast bullets that will *always* over penetrate are “the only responsible and real choice”.




As long as gross under penetration has been eliminated in a hollow point to be used in .380 ACP or .32 ACP, the only potential bullet failure that is left is a failure to expand. But when that happens, the unexpanded hollow point acts just like a ball round.

Even if the hollow point expansion is inconsistent, it’s better than ball. If for example of 40 percent of the bullets fired fail to expand at a given marginal velocity, that’s still a 60% success rate. That compares really well to the guaranteed 0% success rate for expansion with ball ammo, where 100% of those rounds will also over penetrate.

—-

I’ve handloaded for 46 years for an incredibly wide range of cartridges in rifles and handguns. I have used a chronograph for load development since the mid 1990s, and I use ballistics gel to test the ammunition I carry in my various concealed carry handguns.

I’ve invested a significant amount of time, effort and money to conduct my own independent research to back stop other research I’ve read in order to be able to have an informed opinion and make solid and responsible self defense ammunition and handgun choices.

I know exactly what I can expect within the limits of test criteria and validity in the rounds and handguns I carry for self defense.

And yet without fail, when I post something like this someone will show up to try to school me with a drive by style comment made with no caveats or qualifications that an FMJ or hard cast bullet is the only correct choice for .380 ACP or .32 ACP.

So by all means, explain. I await your wisdom with eager anticipation.