I have been wondering how far I would go if someone was waving a knife at me and not knowing how far he would go. It seems Chicago seems to think a policeman should stand and take it since they are inditing him for murder. Course I guess it also depends on which individual was shot too.

Depends? If attack is eminent yes.

Lots of variables in that situation. A guy with a knife in your face is one thing. A guy with a knife 20' away from you is something else altogether.

I hate to say it, but, based on what I saw in that video, the cop was wrong and will probably go down for voluntary manslaughter.

Bob

If I thought they were serious, yes, without hesitation. The old rule of thumb is that a person with a knife can cover 20 feet and stab you before the average person can make the decision to shoot, take aim, and fire.

There was an episode of myth busters about knife in a gun fight. I think 20 feet or so and the knife wins. Can't remember. It was surprising

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No gold. Only lead. Bobby

Probably not if it was only me. I would try to run if possible. Now , if it involved one of my grand kids or wife, then that would be an entirely different deal. I would just hate to shoot anybody for anything. That has to hurt.
Peace,
gordon

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better have that checked

5 days before this 16 year old young man was riddled with bullets, another young black man was shot while running away. While they admitted he was running away (?) they claimed he was armed-video showed he was not armed. This is a pattern that has to be stopped. Abominable.

This is the kind of scenario that I dread. Even if the subject charges you with intent to kill, some will say you didn't need to use deadly force. People don't realize how dangerous a knife wielding attacker is. Even an unarmed man can quickly become armed (with your gun) if you let your guard down.

There are 4-criteria to consider before pulling the trigger. Simply having a knife that you are aware of only represents one of the four, and that is means.

A knife is a weapon that affords the opportunity of doing harm to somebody else, but there needs to be opportunity and intent to go along with the means. Somebody with a knife that is 50-yds away does not have the opportunity to threaten somebody at that distance. 7-yds is a different story. At 7-yds, the person with with knife may have opportunity, but are they displaying intent. Talking tough with a knife at 7-yds could be borderline intent, whereas, charging at 7-yds is clear intent. Then, you have the 4th criteria, which is preclusion. Do you have the ability to remove your yourself from the incident and is nobody else in jeopardy if you simply flee. In the end, you'll need to justify that your life or some other life was in jeopardy to justify a shot.

I.M.O.P. Principle

Agreed. You don't shoot when they're at 50 ft. But if they are advancing while brandishing a knife, then drawing your CCW and taking a bead on them is called for IMO. If that doesn't stop their advance that's as much of a positive indication of their intent as I'm willing to wait to see.

My arthritic knees preclude the running away option for me. I just don't move that fast. In a case like that they aren't going to get to within 7 yards of me & mine before I'm taking action to stop the threat. Sitting there waiting to see what they are going to do until they get within charging distance would be foolish IMO.

This is one of those cases to err on the side of caution. Like the old saying - I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

I am willing to shoot anyone under justifiable circumstances.

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MSP - Retired

All the new stories said the folding knife was in the closed position. Also, the 21 foot rule applies if you have to draw your weapon. If you already have it aimed, they would have to be within arms length and be very lucky. We have an IDPA moving target that charges you very quickly, from around 30 feet and just about everyone can draw and put 2 hits on the center of mass.

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NRA R.S.O. & Life Member

This is all you need to know:

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Loyalty Above All.. but Honor

Not saying the shootings are justified by any means. The easiest way to stop this "pattern" is for these people to stop being involved in criminal activity. Individuals (and I don't care what color they are) engaging in drugs, theft and other criminal activity always seem to be shocked and play the victim card when engaged by the police. Quite frankly with all the garbage out there today I feel bad for the police who have to put their lives on the line every day dealing with these dirt bags. Walk a day in their shoes.

That's why you have a lawyer who to explain that to the jury, and he will show the jury the number of police training videos that cover the "21 foot rule". As for the "young man"'killed by police that was caught on video, the cop was wrong only because he continued to shoot when the PCP taking "young man" was down. I believe that cop is going to be found guilty, not because of the facts (and his lawyer will surely show the jury the training videos that officer undoubtedly saw), but because the mayor and prosecutor don't want any riots. Justice has swung the other way in this country. All white juries used to acquit obviously guilty men accused of crimes against blacks, which was wrong. Now biased juries will condemn a person for fear of being viewed as racist.

But as for ME, the 21 foot rule applies, but anyone who has ever been taught that rule (and you can see the videos on YouTube), knows that every single situation is different. If my gun is holstered before the attacker begins his charge, regardless of whether my hand in on the gun or not, I'm gonna get cut before I can shoot the guy. If my gun is out, I'm pointing it at the bad guy and backing up. That guy takes one step towards me and he is getting shot.

Exactly. Don't commit crimes and comply with the police when you are caught and nobody gets hurt. I have zero sympathy for criminals who get shot when they don't comply. The world will not miss a PCP taking loser who is breaking into cars.

Is that moving paper target trying to stab the shooter? Kind of changes things, doesn't it? And we all know handgun rounds aren't instant man stoppers, so even well placed hits aren't insuring a stop before you get cut.

And a good lawyer will rip the cops who arrested you apart on the stand. He will show the jury the training videos the officers viewed in the academy and get the cop to admit how dangerous a knife is within 21 feet.

Bottom line, you threaten me with a knife and I am backing up. You move one inch towards me and you are getting shot. Knife wounds are nasty things. I'd rather get shot than stabbed.

I went through training similar to what is depicted in the video here and you can and will be cut or stabbed if the bad guy is within 20 feet of you. I'm not going to comment on the Chicago video since it's too fuzzy and I don't have all the facts.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

Seems to me they were pursuing an armed felon. Had he not been stopped, what would have happened to the next unarmed citizen this fleeing armed felon encountered? For that reason I'm on the side of law and order. There are consequences to waving a weapon around on the street in the commission of a crime.
What's the alternative, let him go and embolden him to perhaps escalate his criminal activity?

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Back to back World War Champs.

I never want to have to use deadly force, to protect family, self, or friends. I do believe I would if necessary. That being said, if someone with a knife or any other non firearm weapon, is a threat to me and they get within 25', it's time to stop the threat.

We had a well taught class on this when I was working. From 21 feet away every deputy in the class was stabbed by a deputy wielding a rubber knife. It happened before we could react, un-holster, and fire. We knew it was coming, imagine if we did not. Do not underestimate a knife. That is why I carry one as a backup.

As in all deadly force situations, the police and the courts will determine if the attacker had the MEANS, ABILITY AND MANIFESTED INTENT to do you harm. This is basic use-of-force training in every police academy.

Now, if the knife wielder is wheel-chair-bound and you could have just stepped away, chances are you're going to hang. But, if he was armed with a throwing knife, was preparing to throw it, and you're were fortunate enough that his actions were picked up by a store surveillance/security camera, you just might walk free.

To me anyone waving a knife around 20 feet from someone he is threatening is asking to be shot. I am sure that waving the knife at that range is felony assault in most places. Unless there was a solid reason not to distance myself I would, but, while drawing and positioning my weapon. Any pursuit other than shuffle steps is going to result in me firing. I would rather take my chances with a lawyer and a jury than a knife and a ER room.

While I believe some of what has been going on is the result of some bad history and a few bad cops, I don't any much sympathy for the majority of the "victims". Waving weapons around fighting and disobeying commands from the police isn't going to work out well for you even if you are right.

Haven't seen "the video" or know the facts...........

but if someone is waving a knife blade and threatening me....... within 10yds......... my first thought is maybe my concealed carry gun ...... should be in my hand not it's holster.......................

If the threat continues....... the perpetrator has been warned that you are armed..... and he has brought a knife to a gun fight........ and you are in a better place to respond to an attack.

If he/she runs......let them....... then call 911 and report the "attack"....and the fact that the "attacker" ran when you drew your legally carried concealed weapon.


Footnote: today many folding knifes are assisted opening with one hand and can be deployed in a split second........less than the time it takes to cover 10 ft much less 21.

Steelslaver, as much as I wish you were wrong, I can't argue with the above. The way things are today, anyone who is forced to defend themselves can plan on spending LOTS of time with assorted attorneys. Both the D.A.'s staff, your criminal defense attorney, and then your civil-defense attorney.

If the threat already has shown the knife, the question isn't "would I?"... Question is: "can I ?".
Badge 130 post is on the money.
A baton is a good tool.Open hand Training is essential. An unfit, untrained officer is forced to rely solely on his firearm. That's a bad thing.


In my situation, if anyone is threatening one of my "charges", I will have excellent legal representation after the fact.

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Halfway and one more step

Use-of-force laws don't just allow deadly force in situations where your life is at risk, but also to prevent serious physical injuries including disfigurement, broken bones or protracted impairment of health.

Slashing attacks, most often with a box cutter, are often not fatal but you may use deadly force to prevent your attacker from transforming you into a scarred character from a horror movie.

Menace me with a syringe which, you claim holds a deadly virus and I will shoot you if I don't have a readily available and safe means of retreat.

As you may have noticed from national events, there is a lot more to this question than your simple proposition . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Badge130's video is very enlightening. Feel we need more people educated about this threat. Thanks for sharing the video.

I could be convinced the shooting was justified. The first shot or two. Not shots 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, and 16.

Outdoors: If you're moving TOWARDS me, I tell you to stop and you don't, I take three steps backward, then shoot. Ohio requires ATTEMPTED retreat before the use of deadly force when not in home or vehicle.

Indoors: If you're in my home, with anything reasonably useful as a weapon (knife, gun, club, etc.), you get shot, no warning or discussion of any kind.

Regardless of location, I stop shooting after the threat is down and no longer a threat. I DON'T keep shooting until the magazine is empty and after a reload.

Deadly force is deadly force, and at least in Ohio, it's lawful (with certain caveats) to respond to ANY form of deadly force with ANY form of deadly force.

• Attack me with a tire tool and I shoot you.
• Attack me with a knife and I shoot you.
• Attack me with a gun and I shoot you.

Don't like that? Don't ATTACK me.

In Ohio, if outside of home or vehicle, I must ATTEMPT to retreat IF (and ONLY if) I can do so in PERFECT SAFETY. I don't have to turn my back on my assailant and try to outrun him. I merely need to make a REASONABLE effort to disengage. If he thwarts that effort, the responsibility is HIS.

Likewise, I must stop the use of deadly force when my assailant is no longer a threat. Once he's on the ground and incapacitated, I may NOT continue to shoot him, much less reload and continue to shoot him.

Boys,

12 years ago I had a real life knife in my face situation. I won't bore you with the details but miscreant approached with knife in hand, screaming, cursing, etc. There were two of them. I pulled my 342 with laser sight and screamed "Stop". He did not. As I retreated I remember how dead solid still the red laser sight between his nipples was. Not like when shootiing paper. I continued to back up. He said, "that laser doesn't scare me." I replied "Where that hole is fixin to be will." "Drop the knife, one more step and I will kill you." He believed me. Threw the knife down, they both ran away. My buddy had called 911. The Leo's, three of them, all agreed I should have shot. They caught them in about 20 minutes. I said I wanted to press charges. They called Assistant DA and they wouldn't take the charges. It was a "He said, they said" and wouldn't stand up in court I was told. This bird was within 10 feet of me.

Now, had I shot I would not have been able to spend as much time on the forum. I would be working 3 jobs to pay off legal representation.

It worked out well. No body dead and I still have some of my retirement left. As Fred (Oldbear) said in above quote.

I was pressing the trigger, one more step would have been all allowed by this writer.

Be careful out there, right ain't always the best possible alternative.

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Bill
Dis B. Leaf

Spot on.

Be safe.

IMO if you survive you did the right thing. Convincing/surviving the jury trial is an entirely other topic. The "facts" can mean virtually nothing in court, it's what can be proven & how the jury's opinion swayed. ANY past history, guilty or not guilty, "sealed records" etc will play a part & likely not be in your favor. Public opinion, media coverage, zillion man marches etc will put pressure on prosecuters/judges to get a decision that will de escalate & appease the masses. In other words, don't forget the lube.

Pretty much sums it up.

Any weapon (knife, blunt instrument, firearm), if they show an intent (verbally or non-verbally) that they are going to assault you with it, and they are within that weapon's effective range, they are a lethal threat. LEO's are trained to "fire until the threat is gone." That could be one shot OR it could be a mag (cylinder) full and like cmort666 said once they are INCAPACITATED, STOP shooting. I would recommend getting cover, holstering your weapon and call the police yourself, staying on line with the dispatcher until the officers' arrive.

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Don

I would do what I needed to do to protect me and my family.

The Swedish Police had to take a lot of flack for killing perps
so they invited a reporter to a test.
(The woman in the video)

Sorry for the Swedish, but at the end of the video she admits
that she was shocked at how fast everything happend.

The link goes to Expressen which is a Swedish newspaper.
Efter d

We discussed the "21 foot rule" not too long ago. It is not a "rule" but a guideline. Cops and gun carriers have to make a very quick decision whether or not to shoot. And that decision will be scrutinized by all.

I've heard people say "just shoot them in the leg" or "ignore him and the problem will go away". These people don't know what their talking about but it these very people that could end up sitting on a jury waiting to put you away for life.

Quality practice and training will help greatly. But some people can think and act quickly under stress and some people can't. But no matter who you are or what you do, if you carry a gun you better be prepared CORRECTLY.

Another video to illustrate the importance of training.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

Well..my two cents on this subject are sort of at the end of the list here.

But, what I was trained as a policeman was one thing..We COULD shoot a fleeing felon, provided we knew that he had committed a felony. A lunge by a offender with a weapon of any kind would be justification, no matter the distance. However, any good policeman worth his salt, knows how to think fast on his feet, and can differentiate what is and what isn't an immediate threat, and what measure can be taken, be it taking refuge, using a night stick, tazer or by use of lethal means, his gun, to stop the threat of immediate harm to himself or others.

The references WA101 stated in his post #9 above are spot on. Here-in-lies the difference between a active policeman, and we who are now considered civilians...with our CCW to be used in "Self Defense", of our own persons, our loved ones, or another. As could be the case if one should stumble upon a mass shooting as has occurred in various places in the recent past.

I as being a "Retired" LEO, I too am saddened at the news of a uniformed one, using their gun, more so than other means....But too on this same note, what we hear about the police shootings of today, are really not too much different that they were years back...Except now, one news media reports it, and 20 others chime in, so it sounds like there are more police shootings than there really are.

Years back when I was in uniform, I found out I could shoot to kill, if need be. That mindset is still with me. But I also know, if I can avoid a direct confrontation I will by all dispatch.

One more item to consider, IF, and I say IF here, you were a tower guard at a prison, and you saw a prison break and one or more starting to run across a field, is shooting them justifiable? They are un-armed, running away.


WuzzFuzz

I might add to my above....Since I am no longer in my 30's..40's or even 50's, I could not stand up to a *** beating by some one or several at once, even though they all appear to be un-armed. All it would take is for me to be knocked down, hit my head, or stomped and I'd probably be done for. For that, I will defend myself with lethal means, (To prevent abuse of the elderly, which is a felony)

.

Different rules apply in this situation than any of the previous discussions in this thread . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

You are correct.....


WuzzFuzz

Many variables to consider and the specific scenario's details will dictate the appropriate responses. I've been involved in a few incidents where someone brandished a knife. Most were bluffs and I knew it, but was ready to react nonetheless. In general, there are usually various pre-attack cues to indicate if an attack is truly imminent. Most people intent on doing you serious harm or death(essentially assassination attempts) with a blade will usually try to get close without telegraphing their attack. Being situationally aware of the more subtle cues and having effective counter-ambush skills are what's needed there. However, what is initially simply an act of intimidation(a bluff) can quickly escalate into an actual violence attack.

I have mixed feelings regarding the Chicago shooting. Everyone states he was walking away, but I see him moving back toward the officer slightly in what could be interpreted as circling right before he is shot. It's rather subtle, but you can see it by his position in relation to the lines on the street. He also seems to be getting more agitated and aggressive as he approaches the officers. A young, strong male armed with a knife can close the gap and do serious bodily harm at the distances they were to each other extremely quickly. Even with the gun drawn and pointed at the suspect, he would have had time to get off one maybe two shots and there's absolutely no guarantee they will stop him. I can understand why the officer fired the initially shots, but all the shots while he was on the ground are more difficult to explain and I don't think there is any logical justification for them. It's theoretically possible the Officer just snapped or panicked. Such things can happen even to someone with extensive experience. Irregardless, there is no easy one size fits all to these type of scenarios.

Leg, center of mass or earlobe, it's deadly force. If the threat doesn't justify the risk of immediate death to the person posing the threat, there's no justification to shoot at all. If the threat is immediate and credible, you shoot for the best aiming point available under the circumstances and continue to shoot until the threat is neutralized, dead or otherwise.

In general, the "shoot to wound" and "just submit" types tend to be the mutant "families" and "posses" of violent felons. They have an entitled view of themselves and their fellow mutants and feel that the rest of humanity exist only as prey for them. When one of them gets ventilated, they seem genuinely astonished. I just laugh.

Likewise if you're a guard at a sensitive military facility, such as a divisional TOC, AHA, etc. They're quite clearly posted with warnings that deadly force is authorized. There's no innocent explanation for being there, and a million bad ones.

I have heard this tactical rule of thumb before but have to think that it applies to the aggressor moving toward the victim not in the opposite direction or away. Police officer or individual if you elect to shoot a person that is retreating I think you may also have a problem. There is also the matter of why none of the other officers didn't feel threatened enough to open fire. Lots of of questions to still be answered but it doesn't look good any way you slice it. I have also not heard mentioned why a taser wasn't employed or considering it was a 3" pocket knife mace for that matter.

The thought of having to draw my weapon to protect myself or a loved one is something I hope will never happen. However, if I fell the threat is eminent I will not hesitate.

There may be hell to pay with jury's and legal expenses but the alternative is worse.

Avoidance, fleeing etc is of course the first choice but when it is unavoidable, using deadly force for protection is the very reason I carry.

I'm given to understand that tasers are not currently general issue, just as shotguns are not, and AR-15s aren't issued to those who haven't passed [among other things] a "strength test" akin to airborne school.

The rank and file aren't trusted with such things, and they periodically engage in behaviors that justify that lack of trust.

My answer has to be "it depends" because circumstances vary. But if, as I heard the Chicago story described, the person were "waving a knife at me" in a threatening manner anywhere near me and didn't run away when I pulled my gun, the answer is yes.

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Jim - M&P Pro 40L/Shield 40

Just don't shoot the Tepanyaki chef at a Japanese steakhouse.

They wave knives around all the time.