Being a good shot you could fail to get your CCL !!

[Whitwabit]

Took the Utah conceal carry class over the weekend and found out something very interesting about the Illinois Conceal Carry Qualifying ..

While taking a break I was taking to one of the instructors who was also teaching the Illinois CCL course .. If your a good shot you could fail the shooting qualification part of the class and thus fail the course and would have to pay to take it again ..

How you say !!! The instructors have been told by the Illinois State police who run the show they have to count the holes !! so if you key hole all 30 shots in a 3 inch circle you would fail .. as there is only one hole ..

You have been warned !

He said that some good shooters have failed because of that .. I don't know if other instructors tell their class that but his group does .. the class I was in wasn't told that .. so spread your shots over the target a little bit so they will all count .. and not to shoot just at the center bulls eye ring ..

I scored 28 out of 30 when I took mine and didn't say any thing to the Deputy Sheriff who taught the class about the missing shots .. and where we shot the heater vents were blowing the target back and forth about 10 inches was why my shots were spread out a little more then I usually shoot .. or my group would have been much tighter .. and I might have failed the class !! my last groups at the range I go to were 10 shoots in a 1 3/4 inch group at a 3 x 1 7/8 bull at 30 feet ..

So if your going to take the Illinois CC class be sure to spread your shots out a bit when qualifying !!! Then all your shots will count toward your score !!!

[Backlighting]

I had no trouble spreading my shots with the off hand, unsupported. lol

[rwsmith]

I've had SOME shots go through the same hole, and I have no worry about 'shooting to good to pass'.

I was kinda happy the time I combined the right gun with a soft shooting load and chewed the bullseye right out of the target.

That's like the time I bowled 280. Usually if I hit 125 I'm having a good day.

[sawlog]

I took my Illinois ccw class 2 years ago and they never told us that.

[Watchdog]

Sounds like baloney to me.

[cola490]

I call BS on this.

[Muss Muggins]

Originally Posted by Whitwabit

Took the Utah conceal carry class over the weekend and found out something very interesting about the Illinois Conceal Carry Qualifying ..

While taking a break I was taking to one of the instructors who was also teaching the Illinois CCL course .. If your a good shot you could fail the shooting qualification part of the class and thus fail the course and would have to pay to take it again ..

How you say !!! The instructors have been told by the Illinois State police who run the show they have to count the holes !! so if you key hole all 30 shots in a 3 inch circle you would fail .. as there is only one hole ..

You have been warned !

He said that some good shooters have failed because of that .. I don't know if other instructors tell their class that but his group does .. the class I was in wasn't told that .. so spread your shots over the target a little bit so they will all count .. and not to shoot just at the center bulls eye ring ..

I scored 28 out of 30 when I took mine and didn't say any thing to the Deputy Sheriff who taught the class about the missing shots .. and where we shot the heater vents were blowing the target back and forth about 10 inches was why my shots were spread out a little more then I usually shoot .. or my group would have been much tighter .. and I might have failed the class !! my last groups at the range I go to were 10 shoots in a 1 3/4 inch group at a 3 x 1 7/8 bull at 30 feet ..

So if your going to take the Illinois CC class be sure to spread your shots out a bit when qualifying !!! Then all your shots will count toward your score !!!

Can't help but wonder if ISP officers are treated the same way when they qualify? I call that which makes grass green and smelly . . .

[murphydog]

I could certainly see this happening if the instructor wants to penalize someone with the "wrong attitude", not showing proper safety skills, etc. but couldn't otherwise fail them under the rules.

Or you could just do this:

[K-framer]

Thank goodness it isn't that way in NC. I scored 100 %, with all shots inside the 10 ring (oval) on the targets we use. Of course, the distances used in NC are 3, 5 and 7 yards.....so how could anyone miss ?

[bigwheelzip]

The OP story is the same as in my SC CWP class. The holes needed to be counted, and the shooters were asked to spread them out.

The instructor made a point of asking the class if anyone was taking the test with a revolver. I was the only one of 25 shooters using one, a 4" 686P. He repeated the requirement for me, because he said revolver shooters are notorious for putting all fifty rounds into one hole.

I don't know if the repercussion for too close spacing would have been failure or repetition of the test.

[Hapworth]

I have professional quals yearly; when we shoot a ragged hole center mass of the target, the range officer shakes our hand.

Hard to believe it would garner anything less anywhere else...

[Jim1392]

Originally Posted by bigwheelzip

The OP story is the same as in my SC CWP class. The holes needed to be counted, and the shooters were asked to spread them out.

The instructor made a point of asking the class if anyone was taking the test with a revolver. I was the only one of 25 shooters using one, a 4" 686P. He repeated the requirement for me, because he said revolver shooters are notorious for putting all fifty rounds into one hole.

I don't know if the repercussion for too close spacing would have been failure or repetition of the test.

50 rounds in one hole?? That would be quite a feat. Was the shooter Jerry Miculek? I think the instructor was pulling your leg..

[ispcapt]

Originally Posted by WATCHDOG

Sounds like baloney to me.

Originally Posted by cola490

I call BS on this.

You're right. It is total BS.
The OP should find a different instructor. His instructor is full of beans and other stuff.

[bigwheelzip]

Originally Posted by Jim1392

50 rounds in one hole?? That would be quite a feat. Was the shooter Jerry Miculek? I think the instructor was pulling your leg..

The instructor was dead serious about the requirement to count the individual holes.

With fifty rounds, the hole might be a few inches across. That's easy to do with a long barreled revolver in single action, even for this weak, old, half-blind woman.

[Jim1392]

Originally Posted by bigwheelzip

The instructor was dead serious about the requirement to count the individual holes.

With fifty rounds, the hole might be a few inches across. That's easy to do with a long barreled revolver in single action, even for this weak, old, half-blind woman.

Maybe so, if the instructor lets you stand there and shoot single action with all the time you wanted. I took my CHP here in NC and we shot at 3, 5, and 7 yards. The instructor had over 30 people in our class and when we hit the range there was no dilly-dallying around. He made everyone who had revolver load shoot double action and move on. If you had an automatic the same went for you. It would be pretty hard IMHO to duplicate that type of shooting when you couldn't just stand there taking all the time you wanted. I can see an experienced shooter putting quite a few through. But 50 in one hole I just don't buy it. I think he was just exaggerating. Or trying to make the point about having to count the holes.

[Arik]

I guess if you can't count the holes you technically can't say if it was a hit or miss

[vytoland]

ooooooo lawdy, i'll have to pull a few shots...i dont want to fail the test......

[RobertJ.]

Originally Posted by Jim1392

50 rounds in one hole?? That would be quite a feat. Was the shooter Jerry Miculek? I think the instructor was pulling your leg..

Years ago I drove for Brinks in Seattle. When I qualified with the revolver, which was a Model 64, all but a couple of my 60 shots made one big hole in the center of the target. It was easier for the instructor to count the shots that didn't make it into the center of the 10 ring and then subtract from what was almost a perfect score, which is what he did. Apparently he spread the news around, because I had guys I hadn't even met yet coming up to me and saying, "I heard you can shoot"!

[bigwheelzip]

Originally Posted by Jim1392

Maybe so, if the instructor lets you stand there and shoot single action with all the time you wanted. I took my CHP here in NC and we shot at 3, 5, and 7 yards. The instructor had over 30 people in our class and when we hit the range there was no dilly-dallying around. He made everyone who had revolver load shoot double action and move on. If you had an automatic the same went for you. It would be pretty hard IMHO to duplicate that type of shooting when you couldn't just stand there taking all the time you wanted. I can see an experienced shooter putting quite a few through. But 50 in one hole I just don't buy it. I think he was just exaggerating. Or trying to make the point about having to count the holes.

We had at least 25 in our class. They "staff-up" for the classes. Besides the instructor and assistant, there were two people doing fingerprints, and four RSO's (for eight shooting lanes) overseeing the range test. Shooting was done in five round sets, with more than enough time for carefully aimed fire.

With a rapid fire requirement, like you describe, of course the groups open up. But even then, with fifty rounds, you would still put many rounds through an ever expanding (and uncountable) main hole, if you were trying to shoot bullseyes.

It was simple enough just to ask us to open up our groups.

[cmort666]

That actually used to happen during rifle qualification in the Army.

Maintenance of the popup targets was so miserable that the 50 meter targets would have huge holes center of mass. If you actually aimed AT the target, the bullet would sail right through it, leaving the target upright.

We were taught to aim IN FRONT OF the 50 meter target so that debris would be thrown into the target and actuate it.

When I took the Ohio CHL class, the last part was a live fire. I'm a bullseye competitor, so shooting at anything closer than fifty feet is ridiculously easy. After I shot the center out of the target, I got bored and started shooting at the NRA logo, the copywrite notice, and anything else that might be a challenge.

[gwpercle]

I wish I could put 30 shots into one hole, I would be on the Olympic Shooting team for sure !

[cmort666]

Originally Posted by Jim1392

50 rounds in one hole?? That would be quite a feat.

Not at typical qualification distances with a High Standard Citation, an S&W Model 41 or an Izh 35.

Depending upon the distance, it shouldn't be a problem with a decent M1911.

[Whitwabit]

Here in Illinois we shoot 30 rounds for qualifying 10 at 3 yards , 10 at 7yards , and 10 at 10 yards ..

one person shot a 22 LR for qualifying and I watched as he had a pretty tight group .. his score was 26 .. and I am positive all 30 shots hit his target in the black .. everyone else spread their shots all over the target
.. everyone in the class I took (18 of us) passed the shooting qualification .. lowest score was 24 .. and think that lady just missed the target completely as her shots were spread over the target ... 70% is the passing grade or 21 shots of 30 in the black ..

So yes it is possible to put enough shots through another hole and thus fail the class and there is no retake .. one chance .. or take the course again .. but those would be very good shooters to do that .. but very possible for some ..

Yes it is BS but that's the law ..

[Fox4506]

This happened a lot when I was in the Border Patrol. The instructors would count them as all hits if you had one ragged hole...as they should. Good marksmanship should be rewarded.

I have no doubt that many shooters could do this on a CCW qual...as most of the CCW qualifications are much easier than a law enforcement qualification course. I put all of mine except for one bullet in one ragged hole during the NC qual. I was shooting a 40c.

Any decent firearms instructor knows that if the shooter makes a ragged hole then most likely all of the bullets went though it.

Fox

[shotgun693]

George Patton failed to get a Gold Medal at the Olympics because he put two rounds through the same hole. They actually changed the target to keep that from happening again.

[Nevada Ed]

The other day I went to check out a new "Indoor" range which is a good deal here in Nevada in the winter..........


$100 for the class that is two half day sessions and I also asked about "Wind" in the target area and was advised that there should be none all the out to the 25 yard limit.
This will hold up for FIVE years and for any weapon........ I do not need to qualify with a 38 or a 9mm, either one will give me full access to my weapons in five surrounding states....
per the guy behind the counter.
One thing sweet............ is they allow you to use your own ammo but you need to but their targets. They don't want "People targets" that may cause problems and give them a bad image.

Life is good.

[bigwheelzip]

Originally Posted by Nevada Ed

They don't want "People targets" that may cause problems and give them a bad image.

That's very funny. Political correctness st the range. The most popular target at my range is the "Islamic Terrorist".

[Old cop]

I've been qualifying since 1968, continue to qualify for LEOSA, and never had a problem with a 50 round group that was not spread out a bit.

[EPWrangler]

Last time I had to qualify for s Texas CHL there was one big hole for 50 rounds.

[Ranger514]

Back in the day, our agency shot duty carry, full-load 125 grain .357 defensive rounds during our 60-round day light qualification courses and 30-round reduced light qualifications. I consistently made ragged holes in the center ring of a Trans Star target with my 66, as did many others. One day at the range, I found a couple of stray rounds in the outer scoring rings on my target. I was scratching my head in puzzlement when the joker next to me started laughing. He'd fired the errant rounds at my target just to see my reaction. We had both passed easily, despite his practical joke.

As for the full load 125 grain issue, I never experienced any problems, other than some limited flame cutting with my Mod. 66. I still own and carry that snubby, but nowadays I load it with .38 Special +P defensive rounds, and save the 125 grain .357 loads for my 686. As I understand it, the flat bottom of the forcing cone is the source of possible weaknesses in the Mod.19 and Mod. 66.

I've personally witnessed only one cracked forcing cone in either model, and that involved a older Mod.19 firing 125 grain defensive loads that a fellow officer was using. When the forcing cone cracked, his 19 started showering me with lead fragments. I took superficial wounds in the face on my left cheek, and one on the left forearm. The officer firing the 19 was totally unaware of what had happened until I stopped the course of fire and made the Range Master investigate the matter.

Stick to the slower, heavier .357 ammo or lighter .38 Specials and you should be ok. Enjoy your Mod. 19. That's a great handgun.

[S&WIowegan]

This happened to me every two years when I had to shoot to requalify for my carry permit. The instructors watched me shoot and always assumed all the shots he couldn't count were in the big hole. Any instructor who doesn't do that is being a jerk....maybe trying for another fee by making a shooter shoot again.

I really think someone's BSing here.

[SMSgt]

When I qualified with the M-16 way back when, mi shot a ragged hole in the target. Smart alik instructor gave me the same story. I told him to count the misses then and subtract that from 90, the number of scored shots fired. Seeing as there were no errant holes, I quailed as expert.

Don't ask me to do that with a handgun though. No so good there.

[jtcarm]

Originally Posted by Jim1392

50 rounds in one hole?? That would be quite a feat. Was the shooter Jerry Miculek? I think the instructor was pulling your leg..

Close enough range, not too hard shooting a big bullet with a full wadcutter.

I don't have CHL but I've been told by an instructor here in TX a blind man could qualify.

[jtcarm]

Originally Posted by Jim1392

50 rounds in one hole?? That would be quite a feat. Was the shooter Jerry Miculek? I think the instructor was pulling your leg..

Close enough range, not too hard shooting a big bullet with a full wadcutter.

I don't have CHL but I've been told by an instructor here in TX a blind man could qualify.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Several years ago my father took his CC course in TX. At the time there was a score and I believe the max was 250. My dad shot 50rds from his 1911 and made one large hole about the size of a playing card. Only problem was the guy next to him was so bad he accidentally shot my dad's target.

[ispcapt]

Originally Posted by Whitwabit

Yes it is BS but that's the law ..

No it's not the law. There's nothing in IL law or the CCW ad rules that says there has to be 21 separate holes. If you shoot a ragged hole with all 30 rds there's nothing in the law that says that's not a passing score.
In your scenario all that says is the instructor really doesn't know all that much about scoring targets.
I shot many years bullseye matches and combat and pistol team in the military. Anyone who scored targets like you described wouldn't be doing range work very long.
That's one problem with IL's CCW program. To be an instructor all a person has to do is pay the $300 and submit whatever teaching course they want to teach. Nothing says they have to know diddly squat about range scoring or even putting together a lesson plan. There have been some really sorry instructors approved who have no business teaching anyone anything about shooting. They've read all the grocery store gun rags, bought a few guns themselves, but they're totally inept at teaching a quality course. Before taking anyone as an instructor remember one thing - if you're involved in a shooting situation that person you hired as an instructor to qualify you is going to be on the stand in your civil case. In the OP's case that instructor is definitely not a person you want on your side when you're facing a multi-million dollar suit.
That sounds like the kind of instructor who says if you're in a shooting situation that you're better off spreading your shots around to cause more damage. It just shows that instructor is a computer commando who has never been in anything more dangerous in his life than falling out of his high chair and landing on his head when he was a baby.

[chud333]

[QUOTE=Whitwabit;138892953]Took the Utah conceal carry class over the weekend and found out something very interesting about the Illinois Conceal Carry Qualifying ..

so if you key hole all 30 shots in a 3 inch circle you would fail ..

If you "keyhole" 30 shots it is highly unlikely you will then
have a single hole. But you might have a bullet or barrel
problem !!!


Chuck

[Mike, SC Hunter]

Originally Posted by cola490

I call BS on this.

Same here...........I taught the class here in SC from 1996 to 2006......Qualified over 350 people.......Had to "count" the holes too............BUT___ We were walking the line and watching each person shoot.........We Knew.....Where the bullets were going.

[Whitwabit]

Originally Posted by murphydog

I could certainly see this happening if the instructor wants to penalize someone with the "wrong attitude", not showing proper safety skills, etc. but couldn't otherwise fail them under the rules.

Or you could just do this:

Any unsafe act at the range is an automatic disqualification ..

that person would have to take the course over if they continued to want their CCL and there are no refunds ..

[Whitwabit]

Originally Posted by ispcapt

No it's not the law. There's nothing in IL law or the CCW ad rules that says there has to be 21 separate holes. If you shoot a ragged hole with all 30 rds there's nothing in the law that says that's not a passing score.
In your scenario all that says is the instructor really doesn't know all that much about scoring targets.
I shot many years bullseye matches and combat and pistol team in the military. Anyone who scored targets like you described wouldn't be doing range work very long.
That's one problem with IL's CCW program. To be an instructor all a person has to do is pay the $300 and submit whatever teaching course they want to teach. Nothing says they have to know diddly squat about range scoring or even putting together a lesson plan. There have been some really sorry instructors approved who have no business teaching anyone anything about shooting. They've read all the grocery store gun rags, bought a few guns themselves, but they're totally inept at teaching a quality course. Before taking anyone as an instructor remember one thing - if you're involved in a shooting situation that person you hired as an instructor to qualify you is going to be on the stand in your civil case. In the OP's case that instructor is definitely not a person you want on your side when you're facing a multi-million dollar suit.
That sounds like the kind of instructor who says if you're in a shooting situation that you're better off spreading your shots around to cause more damage. It just shows that instructor is a computer commando who has never been in anything more dangerous in his life than falling out of his high chair and landing on his head when he was a baby.

This was told to me and others and have no reason to doubt him ..

and there was no need for the references you made about the instructor ..

Please kindly stay out of my threads with these type of comments ..

[Muss Muggins]

Originally Posted by Whitwabit

Since you are not a instructor how do you know what the ISP are telling there CCl instructors here in Illinois ..

This was told to me and others and have no reason to doubt him ..

and there was no need for the references you made about the instructor ..

Please kindly stay out of my threads with these type of comments ..

I'm gonna guess that fella's forum name has some meaning . . .

[Whitwabit]

Every CCL holder I know if their target only had 25 holes in it that was your score .. all the instructors are counting holes .. whether it is the law or not that is what they have been told and are doing ..

Guessing the gentleman is retired and not active !!

[Muss Muggins]

Originally Posted by Whitwabit

Every CCL holder I know if their target only had 25 holes in it that was your score .. all the instructors are counting holes .. whether it is the law or not that is what they have been told and are doing ..

Guessing the gentleman is retired and not active !!

I'm sure he'll be along in a little while . . .

[The Big D]

ispcapt knows that of what he speaks. And you should seek a professional instructor who knows the 'law.' Clearly, yours does not.

Be safe.

Originally Posted by Whitwabit

This was told to me and others and have no reason to doubt him ..

and there was no need for the references you made about the instructor ..

Please kindly stay out of my threads with these type of comments ..

[Whitwabit]

the law : you just don't pay 300 dollars and get an instructor License

c) A person seeking to become a certified firearms instructor shall:
(1) be at least 21 years of age;
(2) be a legal resident of the United States; and
(3) meet the requirements of Section 25 of this Act,
except for the Illinois residency requirement in item (xiv) of paragraph (2) of subsection (a) of Section 4 of the Firearm Owners Identification Card Act; and any additional uniformly applied requirements established by the Department.

(d) A person seeking to become a certified firearms instructor, in addition to the requirements of subsection (c) of this Section, shall:
(1) possess a high school diploma or high school
equivalency certificate; and
(2) have at least one of the following valid firearms
instructor certifications:
(A) certification from a law enforcement agency;
(B) certification from a firearm instructor
course offered by a State or federal governmental agency;
(C) certification from a firearm instructor
qualification course offered by the Illinois Law Enforcement Training Standards Board; or
(D) certification from an entity approved by the
Department that offers firearm instructor education and training in the use and safety of firearms.

_____________________________________________________-

(c) An applicant for a new license shall provide proof of certification by a certified instructor that the applicant passed a live fire exercise with a concealable firearm consisting of:
(1) a minimum of 30 rounds; and
(2) 10 rounds from a distance of 5 yards; 10 rounds
from a distance of 7 yards; and 10 rounds from a distance of 10 yards at a B-27 silhouette target approved by the Department.
(d) An applicant for renewal of a license shall provide proof of completion of a firearms training course or combination of courses approved by the Department of at least 3 hours.
(e) A certificate of completion for an applicant's firearm training course shall not be issued to a student who:
(1) does not follow the orders of the certified
firearms instructor;
(2) in the judgment of the certified instructor,
handles a firearm in a manner that poses a danger to the student or to others; or
(3) during the range firing portion of testing fails
to hit the target with 70% of the rounds fired.

[Whitwabit]

Originally Posted by The Big D

ispcapt knows that of what he speaks. And you should seek a professional instructor who knows the 'law.' Clearly, yours does not.

Be safe.

The professional instructor I received my training from was a Deputy Sheriff ( 40 years as a deputy) he used the same method of counting individual holes for your score for qualifying .. And I do believe he knows the law !!! the same method of counting qualifying as the instructor Saturday say they were told to do !!!

Edit : The course I took for my Illinois Conceal Carry was not only approved by the ISP but also a committee at Illinois Central College where it was taught had to approve the curriculum of the course ..

[rwsmith]

Originally Posted by cola490

I call BS on this.

It's amazing how easily something becomes an urban myth.

Some years back word went around that you shouldn't burn your headlights at night because it will 'wear out your battery'. Sure enough, SOME people mostly young people, were caught driving without their lights and when stopped explained that they heard that driving with the lights on would wear the battery out.

One time a guy told me that the old signs "Speed checked by meter" meant that they could trick you by measuring your speed using the metric system.

Oh, that leads me into the old belief that putting tinfoil behind your hubcaps would 'jam' police radar.

[Muss Muggins]

Well, all I have to add . . .

You know what they call the doctor who graduated last in his class?

[FlyFish]

Threads like this remind me how nice it is to live in a free state.

[yeti]

I believe this may be instructor paranoia, which stems from reports of fraud and a subsequent Illinois State Police investigation in 2014.
Illinois State Police Press Release