Concealed Carry Comfort

One of the Gurus has said your concealed weapon should not
be comfortable. It should be comforting. I have always thought
why can't it be both?
As an old instructor one of the most frequent questions I get is
what do I recommend?
First, I believe if the gun is small and reasonably light it is more
likely you will have it when you need it.
Second, I believe revolvers have a slight edge in simplicity of
operation and reliability.
Third I believe, as does the NRA, that .38 Spl. (or 9MM) should
be the minimum.
Here are five ensembles that are comfortable and comforting.
Photos below left to right.
1. S&W 642-1 (pre-lock), Delfatti's ASP-DD Inside Waist Band
clip on with reinforced mouth made of shark. Kershaw's Junk
Yard II knife. Cor Bon 110 Gr. JHP.
2. Ruger LCR. FIST's #1K (Kydex) IWB. Very light. Clip will
cling to fabric if not wearing a belt. Knife is a Piranha. Very
sharp. Ammo is Speer 135 Gr. Gold Dots.
3. S&W Model 60 .357 Mag. In Lou Alessi's hard shell talon
holster. Knife is Benchmade's Apparition. Ammo is Remington
Golden Sabers .357 Magnum.
4. Ruger SP101 (My EDC) with Crimson Trace. Holster is
Price Western's #320 Outside Waist Band. Their version of
Chic Gaylord's Speed Scabbard. Knife is a Kalashnikov by
Boker. The Remington Golden Saber .357s again.
5. Colt's Agent. Ken Null's Gibson GBS shearling backed IWB.
The knife is CRKT's Anubis. I use Hornady's Critical Defense
110 Gr. FTX STANDARD PRESSURE ammo in this old timer.

I've found that an uncomfortable holster (and I have more than one) will result in leaving your CCW weapon at home. Holsters tend to be the most uncomfortable in the summer and in warm weather climates. The most comfortable and innovative holster (in my humble opinion) is made by Stealth Gear USA. They are not cheap but worth every penny.
StealthGearUSA Holster Technology Information

I have seen that statement credited to Col. Jeff Cooper, and at the time it was made it was probably true. However, with the variety of guns (all sizes and weights) and holsters that have been introduced since that time, there is no reason you can't be BOTH comfortable and comforted while carrying.

If it is uncomfortable to carry, I find most I kno will leave it home.

I agree that comfort is a factor. However, there is much to be said for comforting.

The biggest mistake made by those new to concealed carry, is buying a gun that's too small. Nothing wrong with small guns, but can you shoot it well enough? If you can't use the gun effectively, what's the point? I've watched many miss the entire target from 3 yards. Do you want people with this level of skill carrying a gun? How is the gun comforting if you can't hit anything with it?

The second mistake is not practicing. They think, "I've got a gun so, I'm safe." Believe it or not, I know lots of people who've only ever fired their gun at the mandated training class. Sad really.

The Gurus like Clint Smith who say that probably say it in reference to the difference between a psychological stop and a physical stop. To them, a comforting gun is one that they can do a physical stop under stress with if necessary. That usually means at least a mid size gun in a service caliber.

If there are many who miss the entire target from 3 yards I would wonder
where they got their training. If they didn't have any training, that may be the problem. If they had training they need to get it again with a better instructor. From 3 yards my students all put most of their shots into a 9" paper plate after I have drilled them on the flash sight picture. The often repeated line that small guns are difficult to shoot is myth.
Again it is a matter of training. Without training any gun is difficult to
shoot.

From three yards you may as well touch the muzzle to the target. At least what it always seemed like to me, comin' from the 25-yard line and BE and such

I only got a 5 yard line at my club, so's I just learned to no-sight it at that range. Ain't hard with a heavy enough barrel--just make like you're underhanding the barrel at the target, stop it, and let inertia straighten the whole mess out. Do believe I can keep it on a 9" plate like that.

---

Anyways, that advice about big ol' carry guns and giant cartridges came from a whole different time.

Back then, teensy guns just wouldn't shoot! And teensy little bullets had terrible terminal performance.

Nowadays, you can just--get this--go to the store and buy a pocket automatic, and expect it shoot out of the box. Meanwhile, police departments are switching from the .45 ACP to the .40 S&W to the 9mm Para because they're finding the little bullets are more effective.

Hell, seen a feller return a pretty little Colt Mustang to the store one day, said it stovepiped with this one brand of garbage ammo. The unmitigated gall.

Stoppin' power ain't achieved with the size of the hole you make. Look at a .45 and a .40 and a 9 top-down--ain't a lotta difference.

Stoppin' power is achieved by where you make those holes, and how many of them you make.

Now, I ain't sayin' you gotta aim for the thorassic aorta or anything--center mass is center mass because there's a whole big mess of important stuff located thereabouts.

My take on it is that a J-frame 38 or J-Magnum frame .357 is hard to beat for comfort with either a 2.125" or 3" barrel.

The overall "box" dimensions are misleading as the overall volume is quite small compared to a similar maximum dimensioned semi-auto pistol.

In a proper IWB holster a J-frame basically disappears and is comfortable to wear all day long.

----

I am less enamored with standard pressure .38 Special performance however and I am not aware of any standard pressure .38 Special load that will meet the FBI's penetration and expansion standards, particularly in the heavy clothing tests.

In contrast, I am aware of several .380 ACP loads (all based on the 90 gr XTP at 1000-1050 fps in a 3.5" to 3.9" barrel) that will meet the FBI standards. Those same loads will also come darn close in a 2.75" barrel, at around 975 fps, doing very well in bare gelatin, but only expanding about 50% of the time in the heavy clothing test.

In that regard, I'm more inclined to shoot a .380 ACP with a 90 gr XTP than I am a standard pressure .38.

That's where a .38 +P load is valuable. It adds enough velocity to give a short barred revolver the same performance as a standard pressure .38 in a 4" service revolver.

That said, I'm a big fan of the 3" Model 60 with a moderately warm loaded 125 gr hollow point at 1250 fps. It's a couple hundred fps past .38 +P performance, but still controllable and reasonably comfortable to shoot with decent grips.

Here's something that, given recent events, I think needs to factor into a considered carry choice: capacity and reload speed.

A 5-shot revolver is IDEAL for arms-length confrontations with single armed aggressor. It is NOT, however, ideal for having to engage single or multiple terrorists armed with long guns who will not break off the attack after being met with force, but will stick around and engage YOUR return fire.

I LOVE wheelguns. But the fact remains, armed encounters these days seem to hold the possibility of multiple assailants armed with hi-cap pistols or long guns, and who will engage you once you return fire. A 5 or even 6 or 7 shot revolver is not longer ideal.

I personally think a commander sized 1911 is a MINIMUM for being considered prepared. A single stack 9mm will also work, with 8+1 and a quicker reload.

This is a newer reality---carry the wheelguns, but as a back up to the auto loader.

Just my two cents.

I'm 5'10" and if I'm under 190# my weapon is right comfy. Over 195# and I can't hardly sit and when I do, I pop the gun out and on the table. Within reach, of course. Joe

G26 in a good leather OWB holster (I prefer Mitch Rosen) is about as comfortable as you can get.

BB57 said:

I am less enamored with standard pressure .38 Special performance however and I am not aware of any standard pressure .38 Special load that will meet the FBI's penetration and expansion.

Click to expand...

I feel ya, but don't sell the .38 Spl short. It was a standard police cartridge for a long time. Try comparing 9mm PF to even standard pressure .38 Spl--they're virtually the same. I do believe that with a properly-constructed bullet matched to its velocity, it's quite effective.

A 5-shot revolver is IDEAL for arms-length confrontations with single armed aggressor. It is NOT, however, ideal for having to engage single or multiple terrorists armed with long guns who will not break off the attack after being met with force, but will stick around and engage YOUR return fire.

Click to expand...

Single or multiple terrorists armed with long guns?

Me, I'd forgo the sidearm altogether. Gon' need some backup. Full fire team, figure three carbines, at least one with an undermount -203. Toss on a DM with an M14EBR or the like, plus an M249, depending on where exactly we're havin' this shindig. Indoors, a shotgun would replace the EBR. Couple frags, some flashbangs, some smoke. Breaching charges.

Air support wouldn't go unwelcome, Apaches or Little Birds or UH-60s. Even a Kiowa Scout or an A-10. And artillery, if I can get it. Maybe some light armor, an APC or an MRAP or somethin'. Although I always thought Bradley's were neat. Gold standard would be an AC-130, possibly the absolute coolest thing men have ever built, artillery and air support and battlefield overview all in one.

Point I'm a-makin' is, it's a handgun. There are limitations. There are fights that, unless you fall into the sworn-duty category, aren't worth taking. There are fights that you cannot be prepared for.

Carrying a different pistol because it's better for a fight you shouldn't be taking...I can't agree with. And I do believe that the five-shot snubbie is a superior choice for a lot of CCW needs, but that's just my opinion.

Wise_A said:

I feel ya, but don't sell the .38 Spl short. It was a standard police cartridge for a long time. Try comparing 9mm PF to even standard pressure .38 Spl--they're virtually the same. I do believe that with a properly-constructed bullet matched to its velocity, it's quite effective.



Single or multiple terrorists armed with long guns?

Me, I'd forgo the sidearm altogether. Gon' need some backup. Full fire team, figure three carbines, at least one with an undermount -203. Toss on a DM with an M14EBR or the like, plus an M249, depending on where exactly we're havin' this shindig. Indoors, a shotgun would replace the EBR. Couple frags, some flashbangs, some smoke. Breaching charges.

Air support wouldn't go unwelcome, Apaches or Little Birds or UH-60s. Even a Kiowa Scout or an A-10. And artillery, if I can get it. Maybe some light armor, an APC or an MRAP or somethin'. Although I always thought Bradley's were neat. Gold standard would be an AC-130, possibly the absolute coolest thing men have ever built, artillery and air support and battlefield overview all in one.

Point I'm a-makin' is, it's a handgun. There are limitations. There are fights that, unless you fall into the sworn-duty category, aren't worth taking. There are fights that you cannot be prepared for.

Carrying a different pistol because it's better for a fight you shouldn't be taking...I can't agree with. And I do believe that the five-shot snubbie is a superior choice for a lot of CCW needs, but that's just my opinion.

Click to expand...

Very respectfully:

while it's an exceedingly rare occurrence, we are more likely now than we were 30-40 years ago, to HAVE to engage multiple armed attackers armed with long guns. A concert in a local park, a parade, a movie theater, even the mall: if a terrorist or two starts with the jihad thing with the clack clack of the AK's, and me and my two year old and wife are stuck in that mess, deciding whether this fight is worth it or not will come down to whether I want to watch my family die or have a chance at fighting back.

If that dark day ever comes, I want my Beretta 92 with my 20 round magazine over my Stainless J-frame and a speed strip.

It's not about 'leaving this to the LEO' type of fight, because they are bringing that fight to us, the citizens. I can't lug a long gun around, so that's not an option. But of the options we have, we can choose 9-20 rounds with a fast reload, or 5 rounds with a slow reload. I know which one I'd like. Granted, all handguns have limitations. But some handguns are more limited than others.

And there are fights we can't be prepared for; but this is no reason not to reasonably prepare for a larger set of fights by having a pistol with better capacity. Carrying a 5-shot J-frame is better than nothing. A Commander 1911 is better than a revolver, and a hi-cap wondernine is still better than that. Know the limitations of all these choices, because there are real limitations to the 5-shooter. That's all I'm saying here.

Just my two cents, with all respect due.

crazyphil said:

If there are many who miss the entire target from 3 yards I would wonder
where they got their training. If they didn't have any training, that may be the problem. If they had training they need to get it again with a better instructor. From 3 yards my students all put most of their shots into a 9" paper plate after I have drilled them on the flash sight picture. The often repeated line that small guns are difficult to shoot is myth.
Again it is a matter of training. Without training any gun is difficult to
shoot.

Click to expand...

Rastoff isn't talking about training. He's talking about people buying the gun and assuming that's all it takes. Never practicing and not understanding that a too small a gun is actually harder to shoot accurately. And when they do seek an instructor they see that they can't hit a target from 3 yards away.

In my state you don't need training to buy or carry a gun. You need to pass a background check and have the $50 or so for the permit. I know many people who do this without ever going to the range......my family members and friends included. It's scarry watching them at the range knowing that if they have to use their gun in self defense what may happen.

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Wise_A said:

I feel ya, but don't sell the .38 Spl short. It was a standard police cartridge for a long time. Try comparing 9mm PF to even standard pressure .38 Spl--they're virtually the same. I do believe that with a properly-constructed bullet matched to its velocity, it's quite effective.

Click to expand...

It was the police standard and got the job done for years - but that was in a 4" barrel.

The FBI adopted a +P load even for their 4" revolvers and, they used it in their 3" Model 13s for a reason.

The standard pressure 38 just isn't in the same class in a short barrel as it is in a 4" barrel, which is an important consideration in a snub nose concealed carry revolver.

Wise_A said:

or multiple terrorists armed with long guns?

Me, I'd forgo the sidearm altogether. Gon' need some backup. .../

/...Point I'm a-makin' is, it's a handgun. There are limitations. There are fights that, unless you fall into the sworn-duty category, aren't worth taking. There are fights that you cannot be prepared for.

Carrying a different pistol because it's better for a fight you shouldn't be taking...I can't agree with. And I do believe that the five-shot snubbie is a superior choice for a lot of CCW needs, but that's just my opinion.

Click to expand...

I agree, and I'm going to go with the historical data on this.

The numbers are pretty clear. In 95% of self defense shoots, the gunfight is over and done with in 5 seconds or less, with five rounds or less fired at 5 yards or less.

The FBI data supports this as well as they looked at 12 years of data on agent involved shoots and found that 75% of the shoots involved 3 shots or less at 3 yards or less.

The take away from this data is that unless you're doing no knock raid on crack houses, you really don't need to be carrying a semi-auto pistol with three 15 round magazines. (And if you are doing no knock raids, you really want a carbine instead anyway).

---

The mistake way too many concealed carry permit hold make is looking at LEO trends and then deciding that's what they need for self defense.

The problem is that LEOs are paid to go into dark and scary places looking for trouble, and in that role the potential of encountering scenarios where multiple magazine may be needed is much higher - but still not common.

An armed citizen should be using good SA to avoid dark and scary places in order to avoid the need to ever need to use your handgun in self defense.

As the data indicates, armed citizen shoots are a very rare occurrence in the first place, and the need for more than 5 rounds is an even rarer occurrence on top of an already rare occurrence.

Consequently, it doesn't make sense to carry a large frame automatic and 46 rounds of ammunition when a small handgun and 5 rounds will do the job. We need to remember that there is no free lunch here, and carrying a large frame automatic and spare magazine(s) results in and EDC that is:

- much heavier;
- much less comfortable to carry;
- much harder conceal effectively;
- more likely to get left home; and
- more likely to not be worn in the home from the time you get up until the time you go to bed.

Consequently, the minimal potential benefit to all those excess rounds (over 5) are more than offset by the increased risks posed by leaving your handgun at home on a quick trip to the local stab and grab for some Ben and Jerrys, or the risks imposed by a door kicking home invasion while you're watching TV with your weapon across the room.

American1776 said:

Very respectfully:

while it's an exceedingly rare occurrence, we are more likely now than we were 30-40 years ago, to HAVE to engage multiple armed attackers armed with long guns. A concert in a local park, a parade, a movie theater, even the mall: if a terrorist or two starts with the jihad thing with the clack clack of the AK's, and me and my two year old and wife are stuck in that mess, deciding whether this fight is worth it or not will come down to whether I want to watch my family die or have a chance at fighting back.

If that dark day ever comes, I want my Beretta 92 with my 20 round magazine over my Stainless J-frame and a speed strip.....

Click to expand...

I agree with your later comments that this is not an LEO fight. The Orlando shooting once again clearly makes the point that when seconds count the police are minutes away - and the SWAT teams is hours away from a dynamic entry.

However, short of carrying an M4gery, you are just not going to be well equipped to deal with multiple shooters in the proverbial all ninja wet dream "multiple terrorists in the mall" scenario - which by the way hasn't happened yet.

Even mass shootings with multiple shooters anywhere is very rare occurrence. Once again looking at FBI data there were 160 active shooter incidents 2000-2013 and only 2 of them involved multiple shooters. One was a drive by shooting and the other occurred at a house party. (The DC snipers are excluded as while both were present, only 1 individual shot at any given incident).

Ideally, the best outcome in a multiple shooter scenario is to have multiple armed citizens able to engage the shooters - and I'd much rather have 2 or 3 armed citizens in the room with a J-frames or single stack compact .380s or 9mms than I would a single armed citizen with a Beretta 92 with a 20 round magazine.

Against multiple shooters with carbines, a single armed citizen (or LEO for that matter isn't going to live long enough to eliminate the threat, particularly if he's printing enough to get noticed before the shooting even starts.

BB57 said:

I agree with your later comments that this is not an LEO fight. The Orlando shooting once again clearly makes the point that when seconds count the police are minutes away - and the SWAT teams is hours away from a dynamic entry.

However, short of carrying an M4gery, you are just not going to be well equipped to deal with multiple shooters in the proverbial all ninja wet dream "multiple terrorists in the mall" scenario - which by the way hasn't happened yet.

Even mass shootings with multiple shooters anywhere is very rare occurrence. Once again looking at FBI data there were 160 active shooter incidents 2000-2013 and only 2 of them involved multiple shooters. One was a drive by shooting and the other occurred at a house party. (The DC snipers are excluded as while both were present, only 1 individual shot at any given incident).

Ideally, the best outcome in a multiple shooter scenario is to have multiple armed citizens able to engage the shooters - and I'd much rather have 2 or 3 armed citizens in the room with a J-frames or single stack compact .380s or 9mms than I would a single armed citizen with a Beretta 92 with a 20 round magazine.

Against multiple shooters with carbines, a single armed citizen (or LEO for that matter isn't going to live long enough to eliminate the threat, particularly if he's printing enough to get noticed before the shooting even starts.

Click to expand...

Respectfully,

I never argued, or implied, that one would be 'well equipped', to deal with terrorists with a hi-cap pistol. That wasn't my point, nor my conclusion. All I suggested was that I'd be *better* prepared with 9-20 rounds on tap than I would be with only 5.

Of course it would be more ideal to have a bunch of compatriots with me; but that's about as unreasonable as lugging a long gun. What I can control and fit comfortably into my life is a higher capacity handgun.

One situation that would illustrate this would be a terrorist type situation, where the attacker won't simply run away once they get return fire.

We do have plenty of cases where 5 rounds were not enough. Just look at this example of a single terrorist with a butcher knife in Israel recently. The armed citizen who responded seems to unload all his rounds into the terrorist, and the terrorist is still trying to kill him with the butcher knife.
Breaking: Armed Israeli Citizen Stops Terror Attack as First Responder

The inventor of second chance vests, Richard Davis, was himself involved in a defensive situation wherein his 6 shot revolver ran dry and his attackers shot him.

5 rounds *might* do the job, but also realize it might not. 15 rounds might not do it either, but I'd rather have 15 (which I can still comfortably carry) rather than 5. None of this is ideal, but some options are less ideal than others.

BB57 said:

I agree with your later comments that this is not an LEO fight. The Orlando shooting once again clearly makes the point that when seconds count the police are minutes away - and the SWAT teams is hours away from a dynamic entry.

However, short of carrying an M4gery, you are just not going to be well equipped to deal with multiple shooters in the proverbial all ninja wet dream "multiple terrorists in the mall" scenario - which by the way hasn't happened yet.

Even mass shootings with multiple shooters anywhere is very rare occurrence. Once again looking at FBI data there were 160 active shooter incidents 2000-2013 and only 2 of them involved multiple shooters. One was a drive by shooting and the other occurred at a house party. (The DC snipers are excluded as while both were present, only 1 individual shot at any given incident).

Ideally, the best outcome in a multiple shooter scenario is to have multiple armed citizens able to engage the shooters - and I'd much rather have 2 or 3 armed citizens in the room with a J-frames or single stack compact .380s or 9mms than I would a single armed citizen with a Beretta 92 with a 20 round magazine.

Against multiple shooters with carbines, a single armed citizen (or LEO for that matter isn't going to live long enough to eliminate the threat, particularly if he's printing enough to get noticed before the shooting even starts.

Click to expand...

5 or so years ago a jihadist kid walked into a mall in Wisconsin I believe, with an SKS and started shooting. Luckily there was an off duty officer who was shopping at the time and took him out.

2 years ago 2 ISIS inspired shooters at a rally in Garland Texas. Taken out by SWAT.

Boston Marathon. They happen to have used bombs but could have been firearms too.

California. 2 shooters San Bernardino.



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Effective July 1 here in Idaho folks over 21 can carry concealed with no
license required. 18 if their Sheriff thinks its ok. God help us.
Some will still recognize that they need some training.