Self-Defense Loads for Snub Nosed Revolvers

Many people advise using FMJ ammo for self-defense purposes when carrying a .380ACP pistol because it penetrates. Their logic is that the .380ACP doesn't offer enough power to adequately penetrate and expand. I've seen the gel tests, and this seems to make sense.

Seems like the same thing applies to snub nosed (.38 special) revolvers. I've seen maybe two or three JHP rounds that seem to expand and penetrate to the desired levels, with the king of all loads being the old FBI load.

If one was unable to find any of the loads that penetrated and expanded, do you think that a basic FMJ or SJHP load would deliver enough juice to effectively end a threat? I was looking at the numbers on Monarch 158gr SJHP, as well as the relatively flat shape of the projectile, and it seems like this round would make for a fairly decent self-defense load when used in a snubbie.

I'm thinking that the expansion wouldn't be great, but it would really penetrate. It's rated for about 900 FPS, and I'm gonna guess that is out of a 4" barrel. So, I'm speculating, we're talking about 700 - 800 FPS out of a 2" barrel and a 158grain slug that is nearly flat so it should create a pretty nasty wound channel - not huge, but nasty... maybe even coming close to .45ACP FMJ type stopping power (roughly 750 FPS, and a 230 grain ball).

Many, many folks (in my best Trump voice) prefer a 148 gr full wadcutter in snubs, for the reasons you've given.

Me personally, I would used any hollowpoint before a FMJ in .38.

I drove myself nuts trying to figure out what 38+P round to carry. Finally I read how Speer developed a 135gr. 38+P load to replace the sucessfull 158gr. LHP. After reports of it working well on the street, I went with it. I enjoy in watching Jello Tests on YouTube but, Street Results are what counts in my book. NYPD had good results in 2" and 4" back up and off duty guns. They were so pleased that other Police Departments authorized its use. I believe the article was written by Masad Ayoob. Good enough for me.

Any bullet designed to expand at .38 Special velocities would be preferable to one that does not. Experience and data eventually led the NYPD to the Speer Gold Dot, so if you have the choice that would be one of many good ones to carry (but hopefully not have to use).

Sometimes people do things without understanding why.

FMJs makes sense in self defense firearms when:

1) The cartridge and firearm combination lacks the velocity to achieve at least 12" of penetration with a hollow point.

For example, in a short barrel .380 ACP or a short barrel .32 ACP most hollow points will only penetrate 8-10 inches, and that might not be enough in some circumstances. In this case, an FMJ makes sense to ensure that the bullet can reach the vital organs.

2) When the firearm will not reliably feed a hollow point. This is often the case with some older, or lower quality .380 ACP and .32 ACP semi-auto pistols

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A snub nose .38 loses significant velocity compared to a 4" service revolver. For example, I'll lose around 80 fps in a 1 7/8" Model 36 with a light target load compared to what I'll get in a 4" Model 10. However that difference increases to around 125 fps to 150 fps with a standard pressure or +P pressure self defense load.

That 150 fps velocity loss can have negative effects on expansion or it can reduce penetration below an acceptable minimum if a hollow point does expand.

My preference is to use a +P load in a short barrel revolver to gain back the lost velocity and give terminal performance on par with a service revolver shooting a standard pressure .38 self defense load.

Even then, I'm very careful about hollow point selection. Hollow points operate efficiently over a fairly narrow velocity range. Shoot them too fast and they may over expand or prematurely expand - and then under penetrate. Shoot them too slow and they may not expand reliably.

I that regard, I use a 125 gr Hornady XTP for my short barrel .38 self defense loads. The XTP bullets are designed to expand a little slower and in a more moderate fashion than many other modern hollow points. They form more of a traditional mushroom to about 1.5x their original diameter, rather than creating that cute spider legged kind of mushroom you see in all those cool picture that show a bullet expanded to 1.6 or 1.65x its original diameter.

This makes the XTP a good choice for marginal calibers like the .380 ACP and the snub nose .38 Special as it'll expand reliably and meet the 12" minimum penetration standard when launched at sufficient velocity.

For the .357 125 gr HP XTP, the effective velocity range is 850-1600 fps. (Don't confuse that with the .357 125 gr FP XTP bullet designed for velocities of 1200-1700 fps.)

My preferred +P load using a 125 gr XTP HP delivers 930 to 950 fps in my various 1 7/8" and 2 1/8" barrels and delivers 1030 fps in my 3" barrels, compared to 1,100 fps in a 4" barrel.

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Over expansion and under penetration is really the concern that might argue for an FMJ, while under expansion isn't an issue that would push you toward an FMJ. If a hollow point does not expand, it will act just like an FMJ of a similar shape. Consequently, if over expansion is not a concern, you've really got nothing to lose by using a well chosen hollow point load rather than an FMJ.

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As noted above, the 135 gr Gold Dot also has a good track record in the short barrel .38

What ever you choose, in handguns, for self defense, the deciding factor should always be,,,penetration and placement. If you don't get in far enough to get to electrics or hydraulics, your results may not be helpful. As for over penetration, the last Justice Department figures I saw were from 2014, and over 70% of all rounds fired be LE were Air Balls. Choose your ammo well, please consider always...Penetration and Placement. Handguns are pitiful for defense put they are very PORTABLE.

I found recently that Speer has a 125 gr gold dot in 38 special standard pressure. I've started to look at that and ordered a couple boxes.

Haven't seen a gel test yet for it.

My thinking is that you might as well use a hollow point.

It might expand and that's good, if not then it's no worse that a SWC.

RoyOdhner said:

Many people advise using FMJ ammo for self-defense purposes when carrying a .380ACP pistol because it penetrates. Their logic is that the .380ACP doesn't offer enough power to adequately penetrate and expand. I've seen the gel tests, and this seems to make sense.

Click to expand...

This reviewer did an extensive set of tests on .380 and 9mm, and found a small set of .380 hollow points that does the job nicely.

This is a summary but if you look through his vid's you will see the gel tests.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNtPHYwcDts[/ame]

135 SB Gold Dot

Take a look here and read the specs on this ammo: Standard Pressure Short Barrel Low Flash Hvy .38 Spl (Non + P) Pistol & Handgun Ammunition . Number one and number two are of particular interest to me. Both would be good personal protection loads for short barreled snubs, especially the J FRame variety.

If you wish to use a +P load, look here: Heavy 38 Special + P Pistol & Handgun Ammunition

I am particularly fond of the #2 choice listed under the first link. A hard cast 150 grain full wadcutter at the velocities mentioned would be very hard to beat for personal protection. Scroll down and you can read the velocities the company has taken using regular firearms in various barrel lengths, and below that, there will be a chart showing velocity and energy and other pertinent information for several different velocities.

I like any of the so called FBI loads (158 grain SWCHP bullets) made by a few brands. They have a proven track record for many years. One point about using the full wadcutter loads mentioned above ... these rounds are a bit more difficult to reload without fumbling as compared to the longer and more "pointy" SWC type loads. It is my practice to carry the full wads in the revolver and carry a spare reload of the SWC type of my choice since they are easier to reload perhaps a bit more quickly. I also like the Speer Gold Dot loaded for use in short barreled guns, but they are difficult to find. All of these loads will do the job nicely if the bullets land where they need to land for maximum effectiveness. This is my opinion and practice!

kthom said:

Take a look here and read the specs on this ammo: Standard Pressure Short Barrel Low Flash Hvy .38 Spl (Non + P) Pistol & Handgun Ammunition . Number one and number two are of particular interest to me. Both would be good personal protection loads for short barreled snubs, especially the J FRame variety.

Click to expand...

I am using number 1 at the link above, the 158 grain: Standard Pressure Short Barrel Low Flash Heavy .38 Special Pistol & Handgun Ammunition

I use it in my old fragile Charter Arms that is not supposed to be used with +P.

Some simple water jug tests showed that it expanded nicely. I like the low flash aspect as well and have even loaded these in my 4" barrel S&W Model 10-8 house gun for that reason.

Here is some info from the link I posted:

Standard Pressure Short Barrel Low Flash Heavy .38 Special Ammo
158 gr. Soft Lead SWC-HC (850fps/M.E. 253 ft. lbs.)
20 Round Box

Due to customer demand, we've developed this defensive 38 SPL ammo. Our customers wanted some devastating 38 SPL loads that would fill the following criteria.

1. It won't hurt older/fragile/alloy revolvers. (Non +P)
2. Is effective as a "fight stopper" through the use of proper bullets.
3. Is more powerful than typical/standard, weak 38SPL ammo.
4. Generate much less recoil than our +P 38SPL ammo.
5. Is flash suppressed.

Buffalo Bore is introducing these three different heavy, yet standard pressure loadings for 38 SPL. These offerings are loaded at standard pressure, but they are much more powerful than normal 38SPL ammo. These loads will not harm older more fragile revolvers. So, these loads are safe for use in ANY 38 SPL revolver, provided it is in normal working condition. As stated above, the "POWER" level of these loads is really closer to a typical +P power level, but the pressure is standard. We are able to develop these powerful standard pressure loads with modern non-canister powders. Again, these loads recoil far less than our +P 38 SPL ammo.

All three of these loads are flash suppressed, so firing them in the dark wont blind you. We use flash suppressed powder in our defensive ammo, in the loadings we can, because over 90% of all civilian shootings in America, occur in low light, when the criminal element is at work. We don't want you blinded by your own gunfire after the first shot.

Item 20C utilizes the same 158gr. very soft lead cast, SWC-HC gas checked bullet, we load in our +P 38 SPL ammo. It is designed to expand and then penetrate quite deep. (Approx. 14 inches in human tissue) This bullet is gas checked and will NOT lead your barrel. Note the below velocities that I recorded out of my personal revolvers- NOT TEST BARRELS!

Lee's Landing Billy said:

Choose your ammo well, please consider always...Penetration and Placement. Handguns are pitiful for defense put they are very PORTABLE.

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Quite a few practical and common handgun calibers, with suitable JHPs and approximately 4" or longer barrels, have more effective wounding than bullets fired from quite a few various caliber rifles, that just zip through without yaw and/or significant fragmentation. The latter, of course, penetrate quite well -- too well. However, I pity anyone shot with either.

I am only repeating these stats supplied by Clint Smith..80% of all people shot with a handgun, survive. 80% of all people shot with a rifle, die. Again, just repeating. I have not personally shot enough people to have a good data base.

Lee's Landing Billy said:

I am only repeating these stats supplied by Clint Smith..80% of all people shot with a handgun, survive. 80% of all people shot with a rifle, die. Again, just repeating. I have not personally shot enough people to have a good data base.

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I have seen "statistics" where .380 ACP has more one shot stops than a .44 magnum... In addition, rifle shots tend to be placed a bit better than handgun shots. My point, however, was about terminal ballistics, not statistics.

One of my carry guns is a 2" S&W Model 36. I load it with 158 JHP (non +P) ammo. I believe that if I sacrifice velocity by using a short barrel, then I want to make up for it with more mass. I don't think that the JHP will reliably expand at the low velocity, but I do get 28 grains more in bullet weight than the standard .38 FMJ. I've never understood the rationale behind using +P or .357 Magnum ammo in a short barrel. All you get is a ball of fire with no appreciable increase in real energy and a big decrease in controllability.

gen3guy said:

One of my carry guns is a 2" S&W Model 36. I load it with 158 JHP (non +P) ammo. I believe that if I sacrifice velocity by using a short barrel, then I want to make up for it with more mass. I don't think that the JHP will reliably expand at the low velocity, but I do get 28 grains more in bullet weight than the standard .38 FMJ. I've never understood the rationale behind using +P or .357 Magnum ammo in a short barrel. All you get is a ball of fire with no appreciable increase in real energy and a big decrease in controllability.

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That's incorrect. What you get with some "modern" +P rounds is a relatively low-flash, suitably expanding JHP that penetrates at least 12", even with a clothing barrier -- without substantial increase in recoil. .357 Magnum round from a snub is another story.

I've been using Hornady Critical Duty or Critical Defense in my carry revolvers, .357 Magnum and .44 Magnum (loaded with .44 Special). It is also made for .38 Special. The gummy tip doesn't collect lint, and is supposed to penetrate fabrick without clogging and preventing expansion. The Duty style is heaver and slower, with a thicker jacket for penetration (e.g., winter carry).

For woodsy type SD, I carry handloads with hard-cast Keith style bullets, 158 grain for .357 Magnum or 240 grain for .44 Magnum.

Obviously, I'm not into J-frames.

My first choice will always be a good hollowpoint whenever possible, even in .380 (one might need to be a little more selective in the smaller calibers, though). The way I see it, even if a hollowpoint doesn't expand it'll still have more of a "cookie-cutter" effect than a solid round. I also believe that overpenetration is a real concern. Just ask the NYPD.

As a general rule, I prefer medium to heavy weight HP for self defense, which I would consider to be 125gr and up in .38 Special. They seem to get the best balance between expansion and penetration, at least in service calibers.

As far as .38 snub loads, my first choice is Speer's 135gr SB-GDHP +P. It's what I carry in my 642 and reloads. It has a very good track record. A very close second would be Buffalo Bore's 158gr LSWCHP standard pressure load.

If I had no choice but to use a solid bullet, I would likely use a 158gr LSWC. At the very least the flat meplat has more potential to damage tissue than a round profile, and the lead bullet has more potential to deform than FMJ (of course, this depends on how hard the lead is).

With all that being said, I also believe that being able to get good hits on target is more important than what bullets may or may not do.

...four layers of denim...19 inches penetration...expansion to 44 caliber (.429 actual diameter)... non +P ...

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvVNtKicux4[/ame]

QED said:

I have seen "statistics" where .380 ACP has more one shot stops than a .44 magnum... In addition, rifle shots tend to be placed a bit better than handgun shots. My point, however, was about terminal ballistics, not statistics.

Click to expand...

Show me those stats, and I'll show you a misunderstanding, outright mis use of statistics, or an example of statistical problems from small samples, limited population, high standard deviation, confounding variables, etc.