And how do you do? Meaning how fast? I would like to see how I can stack up against some experts.

A buddy and I went to the range yesterday and worked on some timed drills with our carry guns. He had his Shield and Ruger SR9c.

Since I was carrying a J frame we did: Draw, shoot 5, reload, shoot another 5. Had to keep it on an NRA 8" bullseye 100 yard target. Anywhere on the paper was accepted. We only did this twice and my best time was 12.9 seconds.

We also did several: Draw, 1 shot. My best time for that was 1.7 seconds but I was pushing really hard and missed. We were both averaging around 2 seconds. I hear some people say they can do it in a second. But I don' t know if that means from a concealment holster or from an OWB...

I would like to try and do drills that are kind of J frame friendly that I can compare with others here, if there are any.

Thanks for the input guys.

None......It just rides in my pocket till needed.........

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S&W Accumulator

Give this a look see. You may need to adjust times for a revolver (stage 3).
Shoot Like the Pros: The New FBI Qualification Course of Fire - The Truth About Guns

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Improvise, Adapt, Overcome

I have a baseline drill that I do from time to time. Target is an 8.5"x11" sheet of paper, vertical (I usually tape it over CoM on a silhouette target). The drill is 2 rounds, in 2 seconds, from 2 yards, from concealment, both rounds on the paper. There's a range I use occasionally that has programmable turning targets. I set it so the target starts on edge, then faces me, then turns back after 2 seconds. I prefer the visual stimulus of the turning target to the beep of a timer. I do this drill both one-handed and two-handed. I shorten the time as I improve. So far, my best time is 1.8 seconds, but I can consistently get decent hits on target within 2 seconds (I'm definitely NOT an expert). I use my 642-1, carried in my usual manner (IWB under an untucked shirt). While I normally shoot standard pressure ammo for practice, I do this drill with +P ammo since that's what I carry.

While quickness is a good skill to develop, don't sacrifice accuracy/precision for speed. Don't try to go fast until you've got the mechanics of the draw down. As the old saying goes, "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast."

All trigger time is good, to an extent. You don't say what distance you are shooting, nor do you say that you are using the exact same rig that your use for EDC. I think a silhouette target would give you a better idea of the kind of hits you want. Putting speed before accuracy is a big mistake. Focus on marksmanship and smooth presentations and the speed will come. Marksmanship will save your life and the lives of innocent bystanders.

7 yards. Yes, using my carry rig, same as always.

I'm not sure what you mean by putting speed before accuracy. I work on both. Definitely need to work on accuracy more. But I don't see the harm in trying to see how fast I can get rounds off from concealment.

Here is what I do.

1. The 5x5x5 snub standard: 5 rounds, 5 yards, 5 seconds on a B8 from concealment. I think this is the standard to strive for.


2. The 3 two 1 drill: pistol-training.com >> 3-Two-1
Modified for a snub 2-2-1 in 4 seconds from draw. That is a challenge.


3. The FAST drill modified for a snub trying to meet a 4 second speed loader and 6 second speed strip reload from concealment goal. https://pistol-training.com/wp-conte...ast-target.pdf

4. “THE TEST” Modified to 5 = reload from concealment - 5 more.... adding 4 seconds onto it for reload time to finish in 14 or better with the same accuracy as a goal. B-8 bullseye target at 10 yards, 10 shots in 14 seconds, all in the black

5. Dot Torture: pistol-training.com >> Dot Torture


Then there is Claude Werners Stuff:

BACK AT IT AGAIN WITH THE ACCURACY DRILLS! The Secrets of Highly Successful Gunfighters, and the Tactical Professor’s Baseline Establishment – Revolver Science

Thanks eb107. Those give me some good starting points. I don't understand what you are saying for number 4. Shoot 5 then reload? Reload after drawing? That one is confusing.

I like the simplicity of #1. I can start there..... A B8 is a human sized shilhouette, right? I think I have 2 of those.

Accuracy trumps speed. That's what I mean. Once you have a group you can cover with your fist, you should work on 10 yds., then 15 yds., etc. What purpose does speed have? Are you going to have a tv western gunfight or draw on the drop?

I use 3 targets, all 8.5 x 11 sheets of paper. From either 5 or 7 yards I draw and fire 2 rounds on target 1, 2 on target 2 and 1 on 3. I do not time myself because I do not own a shot timer. Accuracy is my goal.

Also I like to start at 3 yards and draw and engage the 3 targets while slowly stepping backwards and to the right, and backwards to the left. Much more difficult.

Then, I practice the same drills but strong arm only. Then, from the low ready position I practice support arm only.

As far as reloading the j frame, if you feel you need more than 5 shots consider carrying a higher capacity firearm.

Enjoy whatever drills you choose, they're always fun.

I don't pretend to know anything about gunfighting or using my gun in defense, since I've never had to. Some guys that have used their guns in defense / offense teach shooting against a timer. Just thought about covering all bases. I thought accuracy plus speed is a good thing.

I definitely need to work on accuracy though. No doubt about it. Some guns are easier than other of course. Typically I do more slower shooting than fast. So I was just trying new techniques.

I would think if someone meant you harm, speed COULD be of the essence of avoiding the harm. But again, I'm no expert.

I use a standard size paper plate at three, five & seven yards, J frame belt holstered under a cover garment. Draw & fire to empty as fast as possible & reload w/a speed loader or speed strip and repeat. I don't have any way to time this but the goal is to keep all shots on the paper plate.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

Because I like to compete with my actual carry guns and reloads are required for 99.9% of the courses of fire. So I practice.

Draw. Fire 5 Reload. Fire 5.


Google NRA b8. It is not a humanoid target.

It is also a good practice to do some shoot/ no shoot drills. It is amazing how a situation can change in the time it takes one to draw and present the firearm. If you get a chance to get some good instruction, jump on it. I personally think that repeatedly learning to draw and present the firearm (when empty) is a good way to instill proper techniques. One should start slowly, focusing on proper grip on the handgun and then proper placing of the off-hand and jabbing the gun towards the target while focusing on the front sight. When you tire of a long session of this, then take that empty handgun and dry fire with a smooth steady double-action pull. Of course, you have to first know what a proper grip and stance are before you begin. I just think you might be putting the cart before the horse. I'm not trying to impress you with my resume, but I've had a lot of firearms training over the years. You can learn so much more from a GOOD course in a short time that it is worth the money and time spent. It also is a good grounding for training on your own. I cannot recommend any particular school, but I'm sure some on here can. Having said all of that, it is good to go out and just have some fun shooting. If that is your goal, just having fun, then by all means don't let me be a wet blanket.

I'm going to shock you when I say that I shoot it like a regular gun. I don't give it special treatment or anything. It has 7 comp-1 speed loaders and a blade tech leather pocket holster as well as a fobus paddle holster. It sports the slim laser grips from Crimson Trace. I have shot entire steel matches with it and more than a few idpa matches. The best practice I can suggest is to practice marksmanship at distance and to treat it as a very capable and accurate platform. Any lack of accuracy has to be attributed to the shooter failing to do it better. Otherwise you're not going to improve with it. Google Claude Werner and Grant Cunningham. One of them has written a book about snubs and the other is really good with them. I can't remember which is which they are both really great guys.

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This≠DodgeCity&You≠BillHickok

Draw, fire two.

Open cylinder, push ejector rod up and pick the two spent cases out.

Reload two.

Fire Four

Open cylinder, push ejector rod out, pick out live round, dump 4 spent cases.

Reload live round plus four more.

Shoot five rounds

Dump five empty cases

Reload two rounds and index them properly so they fire the first time you pull the trigger.

Fire two rounds.

When you're carrying a revolver it's important to be able to quickly pick live rounds out of the cylinder and dump empties without dumping live rounds. It's also important to be able to index the gun with fewer than a whole cylinder full of live rounds so they fire with the first pull of the trigger. And don't forget: Colts spin clockwise and Smiths spin counter clockwise.'

Or you could carry so many reloads that it won't matter if you dump live rounds. But you won't......

I would focus on the techniques in _Shooting To Live_ for self defense. Point shooting to 12 feet, 30 feet at most if you follow Applegate's and the 1950s FBI adaptation.

Other than that, the Ayoob stressfire and Cooper modern technique.

I would defer to others drills on regards to accuracy. Ed Lovette noted that accuracy is the most important attribute. He also recommends carrying a second snubby. I'll probably carry my P-32 as a backup if it proves reliable just back from kel tec.

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From a gun lowered stance I start counting, raise the pistol and acquire the sight picture and let off three shots all in under three seconds. The shooting is the easy part. Getting the sights aligned is a bear. This is one I do the most. I'm going to have to put some fluorescent paint on the ffront sight of my wife's (nickel?) model 38. If the light is a bit off I use the whole three seconds just getting the sights on target.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Yeah, 8 rounds in 8 sec with a reload with a revolver might be a push. I'll have to try it.

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K & N S&W revolvers

Dont do any drills Just practice hitting what I aim at.

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USAF Retired/VN Vet

Never been in a gunfight so YMMV. This is the mashup I put together from a number of pistol self-defense courses I've taken in the last few years. It takes longer to describe than set up. It's sort of my "ziggy drill." I use it with all my handguns. Always interested in suggestions on ways to improve it.

Here's the set up.

I wear full coverage shooting glasses and ear plugs plus ear muffs.

The range I shoot at allows strong side draw from concealment.

The lanes have fold down tables that make holster draw possible.

The lanes are wide enough to allow a 1/2 step right or left depending on which side you start on.

The target carriers for the lanes are wide enough to allow two IPSC torso targets to be mounted side by side.

I use a paper plate and Sharpie to draw an 8" circle on the back of each IPSC targets. When I started, I used to draw them on the front, but when I was able to repeatedly hit within the target I could see, I started putting them on the back. I figured no bad guy will have an circle on his chest. I needed to be able to hit in an 8" target I couldn't see.

I use a shot timer set for a 4 to 10 second random start and a 4 second par time. The shot timer adds a degree a pressure that I don't seem to get when I don't use one.

When I shoot my J-Frame, I normally load the full 5 shots, but every once and awhile I'll only load 4 and spin the cylinder so I don't know where the empty is. That let's me practice misfires.

For each string, I'll randomly pick starting on the left side of the lane or the right. When the timer goes off, I'll take my half step to the opposite side of the lane, draw, shoot the target directly in front of me once, shoot the other target twice, shoot the first target until empty (with the J), then reload and check around me.

I shoot this from 1, 3, 5, and 7 yards.

At 1 yard, I draw and shoot strong hand from retention (don't wear a good shirt ). Also, I'd suggest not shooting from retention until you've worked with a trainer on how to do it safely. Shooting from retention is why I use full coverage shooting glasses with ear plugs plus muffs.

At 3 yards, I draw and shoot strong hand with arm mid torso, partially extended. Repeat same weak hand starting from low ready.

At 5 and 7 yards, I do a full draw and two hand shoot using a normal shooting stance. Repeat strong hand only and then weak hand only.

One time through uses 45 rounds.

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Vegan by proxy.

That's an interesting approach. I've used negative targets for the same effect. Instead of putting an 8.5"x11" sheet of paper on the silhouette target at CofM, I cut a similarly sized hole out of the silhouette. It keeps me from trying to shoot small groups when I'm working on speed since there's no feedback. And, obviously, if I hit the paper surrounding the hole I need to slow down.

Full disclosure: I got the idea from Michael deBethencourt.

I like the idea, but I don't think I've advanced enough to make the mental leap to that type of feedback yet. I still like to look at the back of my targets when I get done to see how many were within the 8" plate and use that feedback to come up with a plan on how to improve.

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Vegan by proxy.

I don't use the negative targets all the time. I still like to see how I'm doing in terms of getting the right speed/accuracy balance, but I think occasional use of targets that don't provide such feedback is good for developing defensive shooting skills. I think your approach is a good method for accomplishing both tasks.

The next step I'm planning is to get some old colored/patterned t-shirts at Goodwill (cheap) and put them over the IPSC targets. I've heard that provides a realistic target feedback similar to what you would experience in a civilian self-defense shooting. With the bare IPSC target, the bullet holes are still very visible as you make them.

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Vegan by proxy.

With a four second reload and a 1.5 second draw you still have two and a half seconds to shoot. 8 shots on a .3125 split. Not impossible at all, there's a lot of accuracy potential at that split. When you drop to a .25 split there's still a great deal of accuracy but it becomes more combat accuracy than scoring accuracy. If you're fast enough to get to .20 then you're really starting to hurry.

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This≠DodgeCity&You≠BillHickok

Most would be happy with a time of 12 seconds or anything under that .. much harder then appears to get in the 8 to 10 second range .. but slow is fast .. practicing slowly the fundamentals of your draw will make you much faster with practice !!

There is no holster carry at the ranges I go to so I do drills from a down ready .. holding the pistol while resting it on the bench in front of me .. shooting multiple targets across an area of 15 to 20 feet wide .. or moving across an area of 15 to 20 feet shooting while on the move at multiple targets !!

Nice being retired as hardly anyone at the out door range in early afternoon .. And I can go any day I want ..

I don't have a timer but that will be a asked for Birthday ( coming soon) present !!

I do my holster work at home in my gun room 1 to 2 nights a week .. usually spend 20 to 30 minutes according to schedule ..
be sure to count dry fire in with round count if you keep track for spring replacement ..

I'm not going to blow smoke and tell you I can step out on the porch right now and do it cold, but it's pretty easy for me. Slow is slow. Smooth is fast.

From low ready that's a cake walk. Just pull the gun up and ride the sights for five rounds and then swap, flop and pop. Reload and ride it for another five. I'll bet you can do it in eight seconds no problem. The real trick is the reload. You need to get a clean ejection and then hit the speedloader clean and clear it without trying to hold on to it.

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This≠DodgeCity&You≠BillHickok

I've done 12 12's and that's quite doable; but I would think that would be easier than an 8, 8.

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K & N S&W revolvers

I NEVER do fast draw drills with a live firearm. There is a video on youtube called I just shot myself. I can't post the video because it has profanity. I use either cast, or poly non guns, or airsoft guns for fast draw drills.

As for range sessions draw is positive but not hurried to meet some timing mark. OP you have to make the choice on how you train, but training guns are not expensive.

A boatload of us have shot competitively over the years; action pistol, IPSC, etc and managed not to shoot ourselves. Practice slow enough that you ingrain proper techniques and you won't shoot yourself.

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K & N S&W revolvers

Are you meaning with a K frame or some kind of 6 shot revolver?

I guess I wasn't doing too bad when I did 10 shots for 12.9. 8 in 8..... Hmmmmmm..... I will need a lot more practice. Do you only put 3 in after the first cylinder?

I guess if I'm doing 10 I should be going for 10 seconds...... ?

Or you're just missing the target altogether and don't know it. I'm just teasing you. I probably would though. At this point I'd rather make sure I'm actually hitting it. hehehehe

And there has been recorded incidents of property damage from fast draw practice. I see nothing wrong with a positive draw with a live firearm. The problem comes when it gets to be more than a positive draw, and someone gets injured, or there is property damage.

Because it does not happen always does not change that it does happen. Personally I would rather be safe than sorry.

I agree that if you do not feel proficient enough or safe enough to perform an act you should not do it.

I do not feel I should drive a vehicle without a seat belt, or without good brakes. Gun shot wounds from negligence cause just as much damage as they do for other reasons. I do perform my drills SAFELY.

Safety has to always be the number one goal when handling firearms, and those who cannot handle a firearm safely probably should not handle one.

With all due respect, if you feel comfortable practicing fast draw with a live firearm then the responsibility lies with (general) you.

Bill Jordan had some good advice on gun fights. I don't remember exactly but it was something along the lines of slow quickly. That is why I used the word positive, instead of fast draw. Most public ranges do not allow fast draw for a reason, and most CC courses use the low ready position instead of a fast draw. I doubt they use those standards just to be mean.

Also keep in mind fast draw is probably more important for law enforcement. Civies cannot legally draw until there is a threat, and drawing on a a drawn gun is not wise. In those cases stealth is a better option, IMO, and the opinion of some experts.

I count on situational awareness, common sense, and safety for my self defense planning.

I have done many things that are dangerous in my life. Things that require awareness and proficiency and have risks regardless of how safe I was. Spearfishing in shark and barracuda infested waters, mountain biking down cliffs, racing motorcycles on track and on dirt, jumping out of perfectly good airplanes, and of course drawing and shooting on the move to name a few.

I look back and I am glad I was not scared enough or doubted myself proficient enough to not do them because of risk or I would have lost a lot of life experiences, training, and fun. Life is full of risks.

FYI the gun range and training standards are set for the lowest common denominator because again, not all people are proficient and safe.

I have thousands of live fire draws after getting off the X.... and yes civilians need to practice reacting to an attack that can cause them great bodily harm, unlike LEO they are way behind the 8 ball because the attack has already occurred and they are in defensive posture so moving, creating space and distraction and fast draw when appropriate are all very important IMHO.

Like I said you don't have to justify it, if you feel it is unsafe for you, don't do it but don't force upon me your views if I disagree... it's like the gun control argument. Just because you don't like them and don't feel safe with them, don't judge me and tell me what I can and cannot own.

Yes of course it is. A 6 second reload still gives me two seconds for the draw and four seconds for firing 12 shots. Vacation pace.

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This≠DodgeCity&You≠BillHickok

I never forced anything on anyone, it is your choice, your responsibility. Just as it is mine. We all make choices, and be responsible for those choices. IMO there are better ways to exercise choices, and I choose the safest route.

The J frame is a bit slower to reload. There are clearance issues indeed and the speed loaders are smaller. Try ten in ten... hitting something of decent size. Let us know what happens.

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This≠DodgeCity&You≠BillHickok

That's incorrect.

J frames to me are up close and personal guns. Looking at Active Self Protection vids on Y-tube will show that 3 yards is probably too far. Most SD scenarios are contact distance. Tactics come into play huge in that what your J can throw at them is not going to his as hard as what he may have so drawing at the opportune time may be more important that the speed of the draw, unless you saw it coming and are able to engage a deadly threat before contact distance. This is were J's have their strongest attribute. With pocket carry and your hand already on the gun it is the fastest draw around. If I have to reload I will not be standing in place, I will be running for cover or just plain running away. Once distance and/or cover is achieved you may want/need to practice single action if you have an external hammer for precision shots, again once distance (your friend) has been gained.

I just jerk it out of my pocket, point it at the middle of the target, and shoot. It's my BUG, so I'm planning on contact, get off me range.

Yeah, I don't recall there being any stipulation legally on the timing of a draw in my state. Have to go back over the rules to see.

I've pretty much gone all to speed strips at this point. The two speedloaders I have, do tend to kind of bind up no matter what grips I have on there. Just slightly. And they're bulkier. I don't mind the bulk that much for my front right pocket. But I carry a speed strip in my back right pocket and my coin pocket. And then a speed strip in my right front pocket. I know, overkill. Makes me feel warm and fuzzy.

I do the Wizard drill daily.
1 shot in the head with one hand...3yards
1 shot in the head feeestyle...5 yards
1 shot in the head feeestyle...7 yards
2 shots in the A zone freestyle 10 yards.
Each station is from concealment with a 2.5 second time allowance.
As per the inventor, Ken Hackathorn, small guns carried in the pocket may start with hand in your pocket on the gun. Since this is the way I carry, this is the way I do it.
As to time for the 1 shot on target at 7 yards. old bear of this forum has witnessed me doing this in .49 second. The Battery Oaks Range record is .39 second. This is from concealment, starting with my hand on the gun in my pocket. Old Bear will be visiting next week for some range time. He is proficient with his gun of choice but when he leaves, he will be better.

We do this a lot. It is an eye opener.

I do this on occasion just to show folks that at 70 [Nov], I ain't done in for yet. It is not easy but certainly not impossible.

There is so much misinformation here. The snubnosed revolver is good out to as far as the shooter has ability. People that say 3 yards are lacking in ability. I have no problem with a lack of ability. I have a problem with someone who preaches about limitations of platforms that they have no ability with.
Hand on gun in pocket is not always the fastest presentation. Sometimes the gun and hand are snug in the pocket. I partially draw from the holster and get a firm firing grip if I anticipate a problem. I know that I can nail a strong side draw every time because I practice this more often. I don't feel the need to take head starts.
Single action for distance...what kind of distance 15 yards? 30 yards? The short story is that if you do not have the ability at greater than 3 yds double action, you're dreaming at 15 or 30 yards in single action.

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This≠DodgeCity&You≠BillHickok