Lights and laser sights

I am new to handgun shooting. I see a lot of ads and promotions for laser sights and rail mounted lights. It seem to me that such gadgets would be magnets for return fire in a combat situation. Does anyone share that concern?

Maybe. Maybe not.

You must be able to identify your potential target. Therefore low light training and practice is important. Light management is often the last thing people think about.

Lasers can be of great benefit. But they will never take the place of iron sights.

If you can’t see what you’re shooting at, you probably ought not shoot at it . . .

First of all, if you're in a combat situation, you're potentially a target. Let me also point out that if there is any light available from any source, and sometimes if you're just a shape, you're potentially a target. Your muzzle flash makes you a target for return fire.

Identification of potential threats is a MUST! More to the point, making sure that you're not about to shoot someone who definitely shouldn't be shot is a must. Therefore, lights are a good thing. Having one on the firearm keeps one hand free for other uses. As noted above, proper training on use of the light and low light tactics is needed.

Lasers may have a military application, but they generally use infra-red lasers that need night vision gear to see and their power output is far above what's on the open market. They use that gear to minimize the negatives of visible light lasers available on the open market.

A weapon mounted light is a very useful tactical tool, but not a replacement for carrying a separate light. IMHO, the added bulk is not worth it for a personal CCW, but they're great on a nightstand gun. As noted above, target/threat identification is an absolute requirement, and you need light for that.

Lasers have a use in very unique tactical applications, most of which don't apply to the average citizen in a self-defense scenario. Most lasers sold commercially are bought by inexperienced shooters as a crutch for poor skills. They are also not always easy to see on a threat in a dynamic situation, especially if that threat is properly illuminated. Ask any cop who has deployed a Taser at how easy the laser is to see on the target. Green seems to be better than red in this regard, but it's still an issue.

In addition, as noted, they are like tracers... they work both ways. But the truth is in most self defense scenarios that would be a one in a million scenario.

Save your money and spend it on a good flashlight, ammo and training.

Wessen Smith said:

I am new to handgun shooting. I see a lot of ads and promotions for laser sights and rail mounted lights. It seem to me that such gadgets would be magnets for return fire in a combat situation. Does anyone share that concern?

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Learn to shoot well first. That takes a while and good shooting skills often take a back seat to gadgetry. Once you are a proficient shooter, you'll have an understanding of what you really need; what will be of real benefit to you. If you see a usefulness for the extras at that point, have at it.

The add ons won't make an inexperienced shooter a skilled shooter. In fact, they're probably a hindrance to learning.

One of the things I see as a positive for weapon mounted lights is the momentary switch. I have Streamights on my home shotgun and semi pistol. An example I see is entering a room or looking around a corner and being able to "flash" a high-intensity light into a room and then immediately moving a step or two gives me a quick look, while potentially blinding/stunning the subject for a second or two, much like a photo flash would. It may allow me, from a new position, to then illuminate the room and potentially fire. Never had to do it, so it's just theory to me.

The advantage of a super bright light into the eyes of an assailant out weighs their ability to know where you are.

Folks can and will argue until the ends of time about the pros and cons of all things relevant to self-defense, many of whom are laboring under the belief that there exists some ideal, one-size-fits all platform for self-defense, which they in turn believe that they have discovered and anyone who deviates from it is a fool.

However, in reality, there can be no such universal ideal due to the vast array of variables present between individuals, ergo what might fit perfectly in ones hand may not fit at all in the hands of another, sights which are easy to pick up for one may be less visible for another, recoil which may be fine for one may be too much for another, and so on, ergo the pursuit of a universal ideal is a fool's errand.

Personally, I don't see Flashlights or Lasers as being a focal point on which an attacker can zero in on as a target, not if they're used properly anyway. I view Flashlights and Lasers to be geared more towards Home Defense than Everyday Carry as far as civilians are concerned, and thusly both would be used under circumstances in which the user possesses the home field advantage, under purely defensive conditions in which they needn't go wandering around inside their homes looking for the threat.
However, they obviously can be used to great effect outside of the home, but I see that as something that requires more training and higher situational awareness than the average person is likely to have should they find themselves in a self-defense situation.

Bottom line, if you cannot perceive any advantage in carrying a laser/light and can only perceive the potential disadvantages, then that's enough to tell you that you're better off without one. Don't be swayed by the opinions of those with more experience/training with lasers/lights, because unless you intend to seek instruction from them, their personal aptitude towards the usage of lights/lasers and all such opinions formed from said personal experience is completely irrelevant to you.

Welcome! When I was relatively new to handgun shooting, I was encouraged to use my available funds for ammo and training. Well-conducted professional training by experienced experts that covers a variety of conditions (low level light, around vehicles, enclosed spaces, concealed carry, etc) and reality-based scenarios ( active shooter, home invasion, street ambush/attack, etc. )is invaluable in giving you the experience and tools guide you in determining what you actually need for your specific situation. My own bottom line - less is more, consistent with the KISS approach. The less to go wrong, such as equipment failure, in a deadly force encounter, the better.

Not surprisingly, after many such training courses, for many reasons, I opted to stick with the iron sights. That's what work for me. For low/no light situations, I use a a small powerful hand-held flashlight like a Surefire works for me because that's how I was trained.

At the end of the day, I would further opine that knowledge of local laws and honing the survival mindset are more important in any discussion of defensive firearm use/deadly force encounter than the actual hardware you choose for the purpose.

Just for info I dont like the way laser sights jump all over the place when you shoot or present for the shot. It seems vary distracting.

s2harry said:

Just for info I dont like the way laser sights jump all over the place when you shoot or present for the shot. It seems vary distracting.

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You know that’s what your muzzle is doing, right?

As has been said, there are advantages and disadvantages of a weapon mounted light. First off, you need a light to quickly and reliably identify a possible target. Whether you hold it in your off hand, your mouth, mounted on your hat or your gun, it's still a light and may draw attention to you. The thing about a weapon mounted light is wherever the light is pointed is where the gun is pointed. That can be bad if it's pointed at a family member, it can be good if pointed at a bad guy. A weapon mounted light can be used for reasonable home defense accuracy by shooting at the center of the light beam.
I personally like a weapon mounted light on home defense guns because it leaves my off hand free to open doors or keep a little distance from an aggressor, and if I put the center of the light beam on a bad guys chest, my bullets are going to his/her chest. I don't like lights on carry guns because outside of the house I don't like that the gun has to be pointed where the light is pointed.
As for lasers, my home defense handguns have lasers because I can't see sights without my glasses on. If I'm awakened in the middle of the night and don't have time to get my glasses on, the laser helps me get on target, and I don't have to worry about lining up the rear sight, the front sight and the target, (that said, in a fast developing defensive situation we won't be looking at our sights or a little red dot). Still, I do like that I don't need to get my eye directly behind the gun to get an accurate shot, this could be very beneficial when firing from behind walls or furniture.
What about the bad guy following the laser back to you? In clean air a laser does not create a trail back to you (despite what happens in the movies). The only thing visible to the bad guy is the laser illuminator if he is positioned close to right in front of the laser, is that a disadvantage, I don't know, maybe, maybe not.
Once the shooting starts, the air fills with smoke, then the laser trail is visible. Once the firing starts the bad guy is going to know where you are anyway.

Everyone has an opinion - - etc. So here's mine. And being a so-called magnet for return fire is low on the list for me, actually.

First, never mount an optic sight on a handgun. Learn to shoot it accurately using the iron or maybe fiber-optic sights that it came with. If we're talking fighting handguns, and we are, you will never have time to figure out where that sexy little red dot goes, I don't care what anyone says about it. Maybe on rifles (and I use them on tactical rifles) but never on handguns.

Next, once you have mastered accuracy, learn to shoot in low light conditions and it you want to use a flashlight of some kind DO NOT mount it on your weapon. Don't hold it next to your weapon, either. Forget the TV cops. Learn to hold that flashlight in your offhand, high and away from your face/head/body, and get a flashlight that shuts off when you release the power switch. Then you can quickly ascertain the situation and get down to business, even dropping the light if that's useful to getting into action.


Next, again, once you have mastered accuracy and understand low light shooting, from 3 yards to 15 or more yards, learn to point shoot. Chances are you'll never be in a long distance gunfight so aiming is for fun, not for fighting. Again, if we're talking fighting handguns, and we are, it's usually up close and personal and center of mass is what matters. If you have time, practice the Mozambique drill, two to the body, one to the head, but remember how many rounds you have available in case of multiple perpetrator targets.

If you're under threat and use a light correctly you're not a real magnet but if you're under threat and know what's going on you're probably not going to need a light, anyway. Police need lights to clear rooms - the rest of us do not need to clear rooms.

As noted, my opinion, everyone has one, and everyone has one of those other items in the cliche' as well.

^^^^^
Last two posts illustrate why there are so many choices in gear and guns. Two completely opposite but valid opinions.��

Please, let me add my 2 cents and muddy the water further.

I have been shooting iron sights for just over 50 years, they have become second nature. However, I became disabled almost 15 years ago, and that has changed my needs and priorities.

Concerning lasers. I have 2 pistols equipped with lasers, but they have different applications. When I am in a legal position to carry, my P365 has a red laser on it. The red laser (for me) is visible out to maybe 10-15 feet, and my intention (whether realistic or not) is to be able to engage a threat that is closing the distance while I am bringing my pistol to eye level. From the way that I've set up the laser, I will print within an inch and a half of the dot.

On my P320, I have a Crimson Trace combination flashlight and green laser. I use this pistol for both PPC and the Adaptive Defensive Shooting Summit matches (shooting under IDPA Carry Optics division rules). For the PPC matches, I don't use the CT. But for the ADSS, for the past two years there have been multiple stages of low light engagement where lasers are permitted, but flashlights are prohibited. For me, the green laser helps me to both identify the target and place my shots.

Concerning red dot sights. I acquired a red dot sight shortly after acquiring a Glock 17 MOS for use in the GSSF Unlimited (then moving to the MOS) division. Prior to installing suppressor height sights, I had extreme difficulty finding the red dot when I presented the pistol. After installing the suppressor height sights, I am having less difficulty in finding the dot. If push came to shove, I'd have to say I don't like red dot sights. However, I need to practice with them more in order to give them a fair appraisal. [Footnote: for the most part, matches are my practice. I have not shot the 17 MOS in recent matches because I would be shooting the 17 in both Civilian and MOS divisions, requiring installation and removal of the RDS at each stage, or running through all of the iron sight stages, then installing the RDS and running through the course of fire again. For '22, I'll have a second 17 and then can fire all stages in the same run, and having a shorter and less fatiguing day].

An added note. Many experienced shooters may contend that attempting to neutralize a threat before you have a sight picture is irresponsible. In many respects, I would agree. However, being disabled and unable to run or move to cover fast, I've come to accept the reality that I will probably draw fire while trying to neutralize the threat. My belief is that my priority is to neutralize the threat as quickly as possible before the threat can take me out of the fight.

The bottom line is, you need to practice with what you have, then practice even more.

lrrifleman said:

Prior to installing suppressor height sights, I had extreme difficulty finding the red dot when I presented the pistol. After installing the suppressor height sights, I am having less difficulty in finding the dot. If push came to shove, I'd have to say I don't like red dot sights. However, I need to practice with them more in order to give them a fair appraisal.

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With all due respect, from what you've said there, you're looking at the dot, and that's wrong. It's understandable, because it's what most experienced shooters do when they first try a red dot on a handgun. I did it myself.

Don't look at the dot. All of our experience is to find that front sight, and look at it, and that's exactly the wrong thing to do with a dot.

Look at the threat/target. Both eyes open. When you have properly trained to present the gun, the red dot will simply "appear", superimposed over the target.

This is the most common reason experienced shooters have trouble with handgun mounted optics, and it takes 500-1000 rounds to start to train yourself away from looking at the sights.

It's hard to retrain 40 years of muscle memory to do something different, but it can be done. And it's worth it, especially for those of us that need readers for a sharp front sight. Once you learn and train proper technique, and see the results, you'll never (willingly) go back to irons.