I was at the gun club today and a member was open carrying in a horizontal shoulder holster. The gun pointed to everyone behind him. I pointed that out to him, another member agreed with me and 10 or 12 people acted as they didn't care. I told him he needed a vertical carry and he said he didn't like them. I said how about upside down and then if it goes off the bullet would go in his armpit. He said are you crazy, I am not going to carry a gun pointed at myself. Under a coat does not make them any safer, it just hides the potential problem. A lot of people must think horizontal is safe because it is easier to find them than vertical holsters. This is my rant for the day.

I was at the gun club today and a member was open carrying in a horizontal shoulder holster. The gun pointed to everyone behind him. I pointed that out to him, another member agreed with me and 10 or 12 people acted as they didn't care. I told him he needed a vertical carry and he said he didn't like them. I said how about upside down and then if it goes off the bullet would go in his armpit. He said are you crazy, I am not going to carry a gun pointed at myself. Under a coat does not make them any safer, it just hides the potential problem. A lot of people must think horizontal is safe because it is easier to find them than vertical holsters. This is my rant for the day.

I think on the range, you have a good concern about safety, especially if it isn't a revolver. I use a horizontal rig for CC on occasion, mostly in the winter time and found it to be comfortable and easily accessible.

I fully understand the concern for having a muzzle pointed in your direction. You did not indicate what kind of gun was in the holster, but if it was a 1911 type, there was likely a strap between the hammer and the slide, so there would be no likelihood of the gun firing. Lots of folks like horizontal shoulder rigs, including me, but for open carry, they do cause some heartburn, obviously. Upside down? Like a Bianchi 9R? I do that, too.

Hey, if it was good enough for "Sunny Crockett" then it's just got to be the Best of the Best!!!

All kidding aside, I don't know a single working LEO who uses one of these because there simply isn't any safe way of re-holstering the gun with one hand. And, the fact that you are pointing your gun in a direction that isn't safe because you can't see whats behind you and that breaks the FIRST Rule of gun handling. Never point a gun at anything you're not willing to shoot.

The first rule is "All guns are always loaded" or some such nonsense.

Rule Two is the one you're looking for.

Shoulder holsters...I was talking to some Copper Chopper cops and they were using horizontal shoulder rigs over their flight suits. It didn't much bother me but I sure wouldn't want to be standing behind someone drawing from one of those!

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Centennial Every Day

Have used horizontal shoulder rigs for years for my 1911s, 4566 and "J" frames. All made by Lou Alessi and never once was this a concern. It all boils down to proper gun handling, safety and most of all common sense. Could never get used to a vertical carry rig and found the horizontal much quicker to draw from when needed.

Seems like a cross-draw holster, or one that is canted in anyway would raise similar concerns...

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You're shy a few manners.

I was carrying a .357 snubby in a pocket holster tonight (weak side, front pocket). It was pointing at friends sitting across the table. They were in no danger and none the wiser. It's not so much about where a holstered gun is pointed. As others have said, it's other things like drawing and reholstering where it gets hinckey.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Photoman44:
The first rule is "All guns are always loaded" or some such nonsense.


So how is that nonsense? All the accidental shootings I saw in over 20 years in the Emergency Room were all caused by the famous "unloaded gun".

Regards,

Dave

Guns do not, as a general rule, go off by themselves. 1911s - I used to carry one in a Galco Miami Classic myself - have both the manual safety and the grip safety preventing them from going "Bang" unless the trigger is pulled.

[quote]Originally posted by Double-O-Dave:

While I regard Cooper in the highest esteem, I think he missed the boat on this one. Everyone knows that all guns are not always loaded. It creates a mental situation to absentmindedly ignore the rule.

I would prefer he had written something like, "Rule One: Check condition before handling" or something like that.

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Centennial Every Day

Yes, same concerns and same problems except for the re-holstering issue. Not sure what you are referring to by the "<span class="ev_code_RED">canted in anyway</span>" comment. The FBI cant has been used for many years and continues to be favored by many, many LEOs for Strong Side Carry holsters. I've also seen a number of LEOs going to an even more radical cant but still using on the Strong Side behind the hip. Concealed Carry for Off Duty LEOs is the same for everyone else. Concealment is important!

Ordinarily, I would answer something like GatorFarmer did. However, in this case, someone with even greater knowledge of the guntoter's reliability testified.If he wouldn't carry a gun pointed at himself, he needs to have removed from him the gun he's pointing at everyone else. I'd vote to throw him out of the club.

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Formerly Model520Fan

Torrejon- didn't know if you had heard-I believe Lou Alessi has passed, cancer got him.Truly a sad loss

I also have a Galco Miami Classic, #244, for my 5903's. As has been stated, firearms do not go off by themselves, and you NEVER put your finger on the trigger until you are ready to fire. The same complaint could be made for my Galco *** holster, as it also points in a horizontal position (my back-up 5903). BTW, I always carry with the safety in the on position.

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Shoot the CPU, not the monitor

ANY holstered weapon could inadvertanly be pointed at someone. What if you are on the second floor of a building? Your vertically holstered weapon is pointed at everyone on the first floor. Properly holstered weapons, in good condition, do not just go off.

Someone pointed out that the FBI cant has been used for years without incident. So have horizontal shoulder holsters. I have, and still do occasionally use such a holster.

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Formerly know as Lucky Derby

When I was working in Narcotics I saw an accidental discharge in the Agent day room. The Agent was removing a 2 1/2 model 19 from a "hanging" clam shell shoulder holster. Put his finger on the trigger. As the weapon cleared the clam shell just enough tensin to finger set off the triger. The round cleared his body and went into the wall behind.

We found the bullet 2 office and a hallway down lodged in a guys chair who was at the coffee machine

It can happen

I'm a LEO and I use a horizontal shoulder holster all the time, in fact I'll be putting it on in an hour or so when I get ready for work. I work on the shore and it keeps my gun accessible and up out of the mud. If I use it when I shoot with others, I take the furthest left station so that no one is "lasered" when I draw, I can reholster with one hand, and I can draw from it with either hand.

Being worried about a holstered gun pointing at you is the same as worrying about a hammer on a carpenter's belt wacking you in the head. While it's hanging in the holster is not actively being pointed at anyone, it's no different than the same gun laying on a table and you walk past it, is it being pointed at you? No, it's an inanimate object that can't do anything by itself. A holstered gun is nothing to fear, it's when it's drawn that stuff happens.

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Don't kiss smiling dogs!

Operator error, not the holster's fault.

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Don't kiss smiling dogs!

I agree 100%

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John

As he was removing the gun from the holster he put his finger in the triggerguard. His fault.

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Formerly know as Lucky Derby

Well said.

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Formerly know as Lucky Derby

I knew there was a good reason to give up coffee...

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Centennial Every Day

Photomn 44 quite the opposite if he had not been drinking coffe and sitting at his desk he would have got a bullet in the guts

Lucky Derby and WC 145 both right agree operator error not the gun or the holster. Rest of the story it was actually our property office who was trying out an Agents rig and weapon that let the round go. He could not belief what happened untill he opened the cylinder and counted life rounds and spent one

From the dictionary:
cant: a slanting or tilted position.

When I said "canted in any way" I thought that was clear enough. Some holsters are designed so that the barrel does not point straight down, but at an angle either forward or to the rear.

Perhaps since such a holster is more likely to align the pistol's muzzle with a bystander's leg (as opposed to his chest), it is less objectionable than a horizontal rig. But I'm not the one raising objections.

I was just asking if most holsters don't cause similar concerns... especially if the wearer is not just standing up straight but leaning forward, etc.

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You're shy a few manners.

ect1222t,

It might be a good idea to lose the '***' holster; that is one of the most dangerous places to carry an unyielding object like a pistol. In a fall, you could easily wind up being paralyzed by the impact to your lumbar spine.

A properly worn strong-side behind the hip IWB or good pancake holster is just as 'invisible' and a bit faster, while eliminating the risk to your spine. Stay safe.

Lucky guy. That was the right day to drink a cup of coffee. Maybe he should take up smoking too.

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Centennial Every Day

I had my career best timed draw and cleaning metal plates using a horizontal shoulder holster. It was at the FBI Academy and my instructor started calling over other instructors to watch. The holster was very fast, I was having a great day and had been very well trained.

Other than that, it was a piece of junk. It was synthetic and used velcro retaining straps, which didn't work. My pistol fell out a couple of times during assault courses so I ended up using a bootlace as a lanyard. Then when it fell out it just beat me about the shins. I scrapped it after that training session.

I've carried a Jackass rig since they came out; in fact, it's the only kind of shoulder holster I have. I've used others, and always found them to be inferior in comfort and concealability. I'm not knocking other holsters; just that they are not for me.
I don't accept the argument that a weapon in a horizontal holster is any more dangerous than a weapon in any other type of holster. It's been beaten to death, but guns don't go off by themselves, there's always some external force, whether it's pulling the gun out of a holster with your finger on the trigger, or dropping a cocked revolver on the hammer.

Are you double-jointed? Or, it must hang down fairly low for your off-hand to grasp it in a secure fashion...I certainly cannot do it with my opposite hand....

"Similar concerns" covers a whole lot of area. The biggest problem that most people have with the horizontal shoulder holster is the fact that if it is uncovered the muzzle begins to look larger and larger no matter what the caliber. Also, it is a very difficult holster to use if you have to re-holster and don't have both hands free.

I can't agree with the idea of loosing this particular holster but I would go along with a name change. Yes, I agree, the Small of the Back is no place to carry anything especially something like a sidearm. But, I find it a very good style of holster if used on the Strong Side just behind the center line of the body.
Glock 27:
[img]http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk56/KKG-515/G-27-Galco-***.jpg[/img]
Smith & Wesson Model 60 with a 3 inch barrel:
[img]http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk56/KKG-515/M-60-w-3-inch-Ross-***.jpg[/img]
And, yes, this holster because of the "cant" points the muzzle to the rear but, unless you're two feet tall, it isn't anywhere near eye level as is the Horizontal Shoulder Holster and this holster allows re-holstering without having both hands free.

I've said all I can about this subject so I'll turn off the notification at this point.

It's easy and I'm not double jointed. If you can stick your thumbs in your armpits and flap your arms like wings you can do it to. Since I'm right handed the gun hangs under my left arm, I just reach up with my left hand, grab the grip, release the snap with my thumb and pull the gun straight out away from me. I turn my wrist to straighten the gun so that it's aiming away from me and that's it. Much easier to do than explain, give it a try.

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Don't kiss smiling dogs!

Not in my post, it doesn't.

Here is the topic as I understand it from the original post:
"... a member was open carrying in a horizontal shoulder holster. The gun pointed to everyone behind him."

If you re-read my posts, that is the only point I am addressing, and the "similar concerns" that some other types of holsters would also seem to raise. I didn't say "identical concerns" since I am willing to acknoledge that having the muzzle point at someones upper torso/head may be perceived as more dangerous than having the muzzle point lower on a bystander's body. Still, the concern should be similar.

KKG, you brought up the one-handed re-holstering issue. That's a concern of yours, not mine, as it seems to me to be off-topic from the original post. Re-read the OP and see if you don't agree. I'm done.

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You're shy a few manners.

I tried it, and it can be done, but with me, great difficulty and some pain. Must be old-age arthritis....

See, told ya. Obviously not an everyday thing (especially with arthritis), but it's nice to know that in a pinch you could draw with your weak hand, too.

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Don't kiss smiling dogs!

In a good quality holster, covering the trigger, hammer if any, etc. with a securing device, it is as safe as anyother method. Safest place for the handgun is in its holster. Most accidents with cops and others is when it is in the hand or coming out or into a holster. Training helps to eliminate that risk, but always being alert is important. I usually carry in front pocket, so when I sit, as one poster said, it is point at someone across from me. I have a nice Galco shoulder holster and I feel it is safe and secure.

i have a horizontal shoulder holster. i find it the most comfortable way of carrying for a few reasons:

1) i drive a lot
2) more concealment, at least in the fall/winter
3) belt/paddle holsters tend to pull down my pants lol funny but true.

i dont worry too much though, especially when i carry my .45. having the safety on at all times with a DA trigger decreases the likelihood of the gun "going off." i am a bit more wary of my Sigma because it doesnt have a manual safety. im prolly just paranoid though.

I wear my Galco *** holster in the 5 o'clock position. More comfortable for me that way. -Ed.

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Shoot the CPU, not the monitor