News shows the mass shooting that took place in a Tops supermarket in Buffalo. I have shopped there before and know many who do. Not sure yet who the victims are yet but I'm pretty sure my wife or I will know some of them.

This has me rattled. I posted about the j frames as my primary EDC. Now I'm thinking what chance would I have if my wife and I are shopping and all I had was the 5 shot j frame.

I have always been a revolver guy. I have two semi autos - Glock 19 and Ruger SR22. I am now thinking that j frame should be a BUG and my primary should be some sort of autoloader. In NY we are limited to 10 rounds so carrying a Glock 19 without the benefit of more rounds makes a sub compact make more sense. I am going to a buddy's house to look at his setup and hold a few like the Sig 365 and Hellcat and Ruger Max.

More importantly I need training! It's one thing to shoot 5 rounds and reload at the range but another to understand use of cover, reloading under stress and even some first aid skills. Shooting at some paper plates doesn't really seem that important any more.

This close to home ripped off the bandaid - I am now sure that I am not prepared for such a scenario. I admit that I think I was safe because I carry and that somehow having a gun will scare off attackers. This psycho executed people.

I need more training both in situational awareness and combat style shooting. Hitting paper at a set range target shooting ain't gonna cut it. I am also under gunned. 5 rounds seems inadequate now. I have very little experience using the Glock as I only bring it to the range once in awhile and I'm a lousy shot with it.

I am reaching out to my FFL for some one on one training and gonna push the club for IDPA matches. Then I need to find out how to get better with the Glock or if another pistol may help with my familiarity with the revolver trigger pull.

Some may say to calm down, you're doing a lot of what if or panicking but this has really got me upset.
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Interesting conversation the other day. My FFL also does pistol training and has some decent shooting credentials and has been doing all kinds of training courses since I've known him.
The other day he was doing a course with his church safety team (6 guys) and I happened to be at the range and overheard this.

Gary (FFL) - what guns did you bring today?

The group - semi autos of various makes

Gary - Are these the guns you would carry to our church or your daily carry?

Two guys replied that they brought range guns NOT their usual carry guns. One guy said he carries a j frame in his pocket but brought his Sig P320.

Gary made some common sense (to me) observations.
Training with a range gun may help you with learning to shoot - aiming, sighting, trigger control, reloading to develop a baseline skill set BUT using a range gun for active shooter type training or CCW training won't help you as much as if you used your daily carry gun. You really need to train and practice with the gun you would be carry in the event of an incident. Different trigger, sights, recoil, mechanics, etc. should be worked on for muscle memory along with understanding your guns advantages and disadvantages.

He turns to the j frame guy and said training with the Sig is much different then the j frame. You have more ammunition in the Sig, a longer sight picture, three dot night sights versus blue fixed sights, different reloading technique and different trigger action. The j frame is easier to conceal, not finicky about the ammunition it shoots and has been a proven design used by law enforcement and civilians alike. Some thoughts - 5 shots can go fast so you'll need to practice reloading. If you pocket carry you'll need to stand up or shift to the side to draw when seated in the church - an IWB which is also a popular carry method offers better access when seated as an example

Lots of discussion ensued and you could see some light bulbs come on.

To be honest I go to the range to target shoot and plink and always run a few cylinders through my snub nose EDC. But this has got me thinking. For the summer I decided I'm going to leave my full size range guns at home and just focus on the model 60 no dash snub I carry. I've been losing a little weight so also gonna look at an IWB as I pocket carry. I've grown up on revolvers (my first one was a model 19 way back in the day) and I've run through various guns over the years but prefer to carry a j frame.

I may post my progress. The range I go to has 7 yard, 10 yard and 20 yard pistol stations. I will focus on using the 10 yard and only use double action. My targets will be two normal sized paper dinner plates - since it is an outdoor range I tape some plates to a piece of cardboard which I then tape over the target stand - when I'm done no need to remove staples or unpeel the targets off the plywood just remove the piece of cardboard with the targets! :-)

I will then practice reloading with both an HKS speed loader and strips. I will start each time with 5 shots stationary on the left plate, reload and 5 shots on the right plate (if possible, I'd like to add some movement after the reload but that will depend on how many people are on the range. There is a combat range with steel plates and targets so I may do some work there afterwards but I want to avoid bad habits).

My goal is 50 rounds a session not timed to begin with. I'm interested to see how I do. If I run into any issues or have some concerns Gary said he could join me and give me some pointers.

So zero session is next week and I will post my first attempts. I have no law enforcement or military background just been shooting a bunch of years and this has my curious.

This idea seems like basic common sense...I am surprised the church guys didn't know that right off. Maybe I need to get out more?

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No good deed goes unpunished.

I'm thrilled to hear of a church that actively embraces firearms carry within its confines. Even in light of the several notable attacks within those sacred locations, it seems most are still more fearful of its congregation carrying than someone from the outside.

As for "practice with what you carry", AFAIC, it's a no-brainer.

Had I been the instructor, I would have mentioned that a shoulder holster is the most accessible from a seated position, a cross draw belt carry being the second best.

Easy enough for me, as I only have one gun at the moment, my 686-1 4 inch and it does everything well. My only complaint is during summer I have to wear a baggy windbreaker to conceal it.

That explains your username and avatar too! :-)

Good advice from the instructor and church security team leader of which I am both! I would suggest practicing with what you carry but possibly something with a longer sight radius and easier to reload than a snubby. Also while doing your practice, instead of five on one target, reload and five on the other, switch if up and give firsts to both, then reload and deliver some more to both. Get off the X after taking a shot, MOVE! You might consider placing the targets at different distances since you said that you have that option. Also practice your one handed shooting with both hands. You may have to move someone out of the way or hold on to someone and only have one hand to shoot with.
The other thing to consider is where you are seated in the church and the maximum distance at which you may have to take a shot.

I found IDPA to be excellent for learning real-world scenarios. I never fell into the competitive mind-set, I went solely for fun and to learn how to move to cover, reloading and decision making while on a clock, and how to make the shots count, while not trying for an X in a circle, but just for the circle itself. Sometimes the 'regular" shooting range is not as friendly for defensive shooting scenarios, unless they are having an event geared for that.

Maybe, in their defense, they normally go to the range with their range guns and saw this as another session. Guess I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt.

I got to give them credit to be the ones to stand up in their house of worship if something happens.

I think it is an excellent idea. Many eons ago when a buddy took me to my first IPSC shoot I wore my EDC Commander in a Dillon holster under a Carhart jacket with a pair of spare mags in a Triple-K mag pouch.

My scores weren't great, but the practice under pressure helped my gunhandling. Fads were tried and discarded. Over time I sorted what worked for me. We got to shooting a club match someplace every weekend. While, realistically, most competitions is just bowling with bullets, at some level shooting with your "duty rig" will make things like moving and reloading things you can do automatically without too much extraneous effort.

I would love to do this. Unfortunately the closest club that does this is 90 minutes away. Between work and taking care of elderly parents and life in general I can fit in a trip to the range 20 minutes away about 2-3 a month (all told about 60-70 minutes a session but I'm close by if I need to leave or get called in). Anything longer requires seeing about health care coverage and no issues at work which never ever happens (I work in IT)
:-)

I wish my local club would get affiliated with the program and I've been making the suggestion.

I have a large gun collection.
However, I only carry one of two that will fit any clothing I may be wearing that day. A 45acp or 9mm.
Gun-of-the-day could get you killed.

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Dave Ramsey Cultist

Good practical advice, but not something the daily rotators want to hear.

Took some private lessons from my range manager, who simulates firing under stress by "attacking" me with the target trolly from 7 yards.

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Slava Ukraini!

My EDC is my Glock 26. Although small, this pistol shoots as well and as comfortably as its larger versions. Thus, it can also serve well as a range firearm. J frame Smiths, even with after market grips, do not do well in my large hands.

My Smith 6906, which I parked in lieu of the slightly more compact Glock, is also well suited to range use. Its large double stack grip fits my hand better than any other semi-auto I have ever picked up, so I shoot it very well.

I think there is great value to the idea of 'dance with the one ya' brung' applied to EDC handguns.

What follows may appear inconsistent for California and those who choose to paint everyone who lives in California with the same broad brush.

We live in an isolated area, sparsely populated. Our church congregation is small, and pretty much everyone knows everyone else. I am the only one with a law enforcement background. I am always armed and always sit in the same location, so I can see everything. I have only had one potential problem. Other members pointed him out to me as we came in for the Christmas concert. I situated myself at the rear of the sanctuary where I could watch him closely. He was carrying a small pack, so naturally my focus was on his hands and that pack. After a period of time he became aware that I was watching him. He had ridden his bike 30 miles to our church, but now it was dark. At the end of the concert he said he needed a ride back to town. No way was I going to put him in a vehicle with anyone. I told him he had gotten himself here, it was up to him to figure out how to get back to town. He stayed around in back of the church, just out of sight. I stayed there until the church was locked up and everyone had left. He was still in the area, but no sign of him the next day. Several days later I read in the sheriff's log in the newspaper that he had called the sheriff's department and requested transport back to town. That was not going to happen until he told the dispatcher he had outstanding warrants for his arrest. It turned out he had two felony warrants, although the paper did not state for what or where they had originated.

If he had any ill intent, he had no opportunity.

For the almost 20 years I taught the state-mandated CCW class, I did so in our church. I never kept a dime, so it was a significant fund raiser for the church.

Despite our being in California, none of this is unusual for our very rural and conservative area. People who choose to live in a region such as this tend to be very self-sufficient.

Where we are the 2A still lives, and in fact is revered.

My CC and HD pistols have only been fed ball ammo.

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Music/Sports/Beer fan

We have some similar circumstances. I'm retired, but taking care of my 95 year-old mother takes a lot of my free time. The wildlife club of which I am a member does not hold defensive shooting matches, and the pistol range is not set up for them. I have to travel about an hour to the closest range that holds IDPA/USPSA matches, and don't get to as many as I'd like, and most have been stopped due to the pandemic.

All that said, I am loading up now (pardon the pun) to head out to the wildlife club and at least practice proficiency with the two pistols I carry most now. I'll also take a .22 and see if I can hit the X once or twice.

Gratuitous firearms pictures:

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Another angle not mentioned is that there is (or should be?) a different mindset for a church security group as opposed to “guy walking his dog that doesn’t want to get mugged.”

If a security group team member brings a J-frame to a fight with a guy who has a subgun, that’s an issue. A guy intent on doing group harm in a church is really a different kind of a threat.

Obviously you still need to be discreet so as a church security group member, you won’t have an 870 slung over your shoulder.

But is a J-frame the choice? Lousy choice compared to a P320.

A church security group was taking a course at my range at the same time I was taking the classroom portion of my CC Permit course. They were blasting away using AR's.

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Slava Ukraini!

Not very practical for the overwhelming majority of settings and circumstances. When I was in LE, I had both a rifle and a shotgun in my car. Circumstances dictate tactics. However, I can't see a situation in a church in which there will be time to get a long gun. It is the other side of the coin from a J frame, which is not a good choice for that setting, either. I agree with the poster above who noted the difference between the dog walker and the church security team. For me, one of my RDS equipped pistols would be the best choice for such a setting.

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NHI, 10-8.

The security team for my church requires its members to qualify with the gun they carry as a team member.

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Retired Career Security Guard

Practice with what you carry conversation got me thinking

Good advice, but sometimes it gets expensive.

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My carry, 360 PD, 135gr GDSBs.

Well, if the nutjob shows up with an AR, like in Southland Springs TX, killing 26, the AR training might help level the field.



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Slava Ukraini!

I CAN see an AR for a Church security team. Not carried but stashed somewhere. If the need arises the team needs to be prepared to engage while one member goes for the long gun.

Marshal Tom brought up an important point: range. The emphasis in most CCW training is very short range defense (and rightly so in my opinion). Many sanctuaries have more than 25 yards between their extreme points and a shooting attack will most likely be at a time when there are a whole bunch of people around.

My main takeaway: You need to train for real accuracy, so you don't kill one of your friends. This level of shooting is not for everybody (sadly including me at this point). I love my church family. I know they have some sort of team. I don't even ask because I have no need to know.

Just my opinion.

Been running my carry guns, (M&P Shields. 9mm & 45acp), at the range exclusively for the last few years. Due to the ammo shortage, I limit it to 2 mags each. I go at least once a week, so that works for me. Look forward to the day when ammo's available, (and at a reasonable price), so I can exercise some of the others, but till then,,,,,

Practiced regularly with my 6906, carried it from 1994-2021. Practice with CZ P 07 regularly. Only change, 115 gr ball on the range instead of 124 gr Fed HST. I don't shoot well enough any more to have significant difference in POI with the lighter slugs. Joe

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Wisdom chases me; I'm faster

Train to be as accurate as the circumstances allow. In a crowd of any kind, the perp will have the advantage, as he is not worried about collateral damage. The defensive goal is to minimize the damage he can create by taking him down as quickly as possible. The longer you delay, waiting for a clear background or clear shot, the more time he has to create mayhem. That there are several defenders within the crowd lessens the perp's advantage, and part of the practice scenario would be to flank the perp and surround him. It's almost guaranteed the defenders may hit an innocent, but how many will the perp get if you delay?

The congregation should be made a part of the training; Rather than blindly panic and run helter-skelter, trying to avoid the shooting, the better tactic for them may be to hit the floor, down between the pews. This does two things: 1- it takes them out of the view, however slightly, of the perp, and 2- it takes them out of the defender's' line of fire. There are still no guarantees, but it does improve the odds.

Maybe posting a sign at the door, that there is an active defense team within, could be an effective deterrent. The perp's goal is to attack a defenseless group and kill/wound as many as he can. Knowing up front that he has less of a chance of achieving his goal, without being killed himself, would stop him before things got started. How much more /less likely is it for a burglar to attempt a break-in if he knows there is a bad-tempered Doberman wandering inside the house?

Yep train with exactly what you carry. Gun and ammo. Using anemic training rounds and expecting yourself to react the same in a defense scenario with more powerful ammo can create you a problem for sure. Recover time back to target and rhythm probably being two of the main ones

Far as real world I don’t train on a controlled range. Nor do I teach defensive handgun on a controlled range. Main reason is you can’t really get yourself all contorted or roll around on the ground or run and gun at a controlled range.

I do it in the open desert. Also I only shoot at the red plastic Folgers coffee cans. They don’t disintegrate so it’s easy to pick up when your done shooting, and they bounce around when you hit them which makes you change your aim and or position for every shot

They are about the size of a human head which is what I train for. Headshots, bad guys can’t wear body armor on their face. They are also a good size for keeping effective torso shot groups if that’s your thing,

Throw a few of those cans out there. And blast away. Crouch down to reload or jog around and reload while moving. Just create your own in motion scenarios. It may seem strange at first but it allows you to work on skills that you cannot come close to honing on a range

I also like to throw in some shoot from the hip instinctive draw and fire shooting. This is important if you get stuck in a “gotta beat em to the draw” scenario. Most train to draw and bring it up to eye level sight picture then fire. When split seconds can be the difference between living and dying the skill of “clear the holster and rip off a round” can be a life saver

If you can get to the point where you pop those red coffee cans every time from any position or in motion you have one heck of a leg up on most any assailant you will ever encounter

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R/S
J.D.

I read the same article about the store shooting up in Buffalo and my Prayers are with all the people that got hurt killed or injured there... The retired officer involved, I'm sure, emptied his gun in an effort to bring the perp down.. The trouble was the perp had a bullet proof vest on and the officer was probably shooting center mass as he was trained to do..

The lesson I got from this is, Yeah, Train to shoot center mass 2-3 times and then go for a head shot if you can.. Accuracy is key!!! Practice slow at first and then bring your speed up slowly until your groups are too large. Stop, call it a day and do it again next week.. And so on....

It's what I'm gonna do anyway....

As far as the amount of rounds I don't think that's as big of a deal as using a gun you're accurate with: Drilling a quarter at 5-10 yards vs a 3-4" spread or larger...

On a side note I hope they ROAST this,,,,,,,, Animal... He's not even human IMHO...

I have some thoughts and questions. Having a church security team is great. Having training specifically geared to church security is necessary. Having training for the church council or ruling body of the church is important. Having the church buy liability insurance covering the church and security team is important. I think just as important is training the congregation. That can save lives. Merely teaching parishioners to drop and cover, or what to do in the event there is a shooter. If you are head of church security, are you aware of who else is carrying concealed? If the shooting starts and I take out my concealed carry, do you identify me as a potential shooter or a good guy? Hope the right decision gets made. If not, what are the consequences? Always more to think about.

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SWCA 3255 SWHF 615

Since this is a rational thread (as opposed to a gamesman thread), consider that Gendron wore a Level IIIA or IV vest. Nothing you can load in your EDC will penetrate soft Level IV, Level IV with plates, or even IIIA armor with plates, as decedent Salter learned after hitting Gendron on the vest with well-aimed fire several times before being killed. Decades of training to hit center mass didn't help, either.

So; can you identify a vest when you are under attack stress? What if it has 'POLICE' on it? Will you be able to identify whether the vest-wearer is or is not police/SWAT by his/her actions? If armed with a sideram, where do you aim, and from what angle? Can you hit a small target, like a head/neck (from any angle), or a shoulder (from a side angle)? If your answer is, "No," could you have the presence of mind to shoot at and hit very low abdomen/groin/extreme upper thighs from any angle? Would your EDC's ammo reliably penetrate a femur, hipbone, sacrum, or coccyx and disrupt soft tissues and nerves or nerve bundles? Would it reliably penetrate/disrupt shoulder bones and ribs?

An ability to observe, quickly deduce, and reliably target the most likely spot to incapacitate your opponent or make them ineffective at return fire is as important (perhaps moreso) than (much easier to learn) marksmanship with your EDC.

I was at the range yesterday, had to take a walk to reset my G2 Housing Unit (That's "Brain" for you Silly-Villians ). 2 more mags and I knew it was pointless.
Sometimes ya just gotta go home and clean brass....


And FWIW, I carry JHP in my EDC, I practice with JHP and my EDC.

I went through a BLM demonstration with a J frame...

20220108_092544.jpg

not again...M&P 2.0...

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Bullet Load Matters!

And a church shooting in CA today with one dead and four critical.
Regarding the store shooting, was surprised by the reports the security officer, a retired LEO LT, was making chest hits on the ballistic vest shooter, as my understanding is armor = shoot out the legs.
No longer comfortable with a pocket LCP except for the immediate neighborhood,a 365 is carried now when going anywhere else.

One of the techniques that some teachers advocate these days is the so-called "zipper" technique. That is, make the first shot in the low abdomen/hip area, then work your way up with 2-3 more rounds after that. The idea is that the first round should have some effect even if the subject is wearing body armor as it would be below the vest. If the shot is into the hip it might even break him down, and it might well connect with a subject who has ducked where a higher shot may miss. The next two might have no effect on an armored subject, but a 4th round should be high, into the collar bone or even head area. Of course, that means fast, accurate shooting and it leaves almost nothing for other subjects if you're carrying a 5 shot J frame. And it requires a fair amount of training if your old habit is to shoot center mass. Still, it seems worth thinking about since more and more bad guys seem to be showing up with body armor these days.

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Everybody could shoot

People under stress respond as trained. Shooting at center mass or head straight on has been the standard for non-SRT police for decades. It's really easy to criticize individual response to clearly deadly threat if you've never been there.

And when the target moves as quickly, turning right or left, or simply dropping prone more quickly than the one returning fire? Ever shoot at a sideways, bentover, moving target? What if the target screams, "I'm a police officer," or, "Cease fire..," then shoots while you hesitate?

My point is not to denigrate better training, but to try to ensure folks know it is their eyes and minds that must be open to considering and instantly responding to actions they simply had not anticpated. Folks love to pontificate about equipment, ammo, and marksmanship, but tactics and a focused mind are at least as important, if not far moreso.

Very good post. And to expound on "instantly responding"...this is one of the most eye-opening aspects of a potentially deadly confrontation. Things happen at incredible speed, speed many of us have no concept of.

[QUOTE=biku324;141470385]People under stress respond as trained. Shooting at center mass or head straight on has been the standard for non-SRT police for decades. It's really easy to criticize individual response to clearly deadly threat if you've never been there.[/QUOTE

Would never criticize someone who dies trying to protect others, they are our true hero's, it was simply a non judgemental comment on the facts as we know them.

I’m sure more information will come out. It is entirely possible the shots between the killer and the cop were nearly simultaneous.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

9mmPatriot,

Unfortunately this creep will not be eliminated, as New York does not have the death penalty. If the feds try him as a terrorist he could conceivably get a death penalty, but it would be 30 years or so before it happens; think of the nut-case major from Ft. Hood who shot up service members about to deploy.

MG34/bar,I think you were addressing the comments by someone else....

In response to the original post:

Yes, I carry the gun I practice with. Either my HK VP9sk or P30sk. But I've gone further. All of my semiautos are HK (VP9sk, VP9, P30sk...and a P30L later this year), and I only shoot 124g ammo. All of my pistols have an Olight BALDR laser/light mounted on them, and all are equipped with Speed Sights. I have two Orca Tactical range bags, and they're identically outfitted...right down the emergency flashlights and small binoculars.

When I reach for a pistol, I know how the gun will feel in my hand and how the recoil will register. I know what my sight picture will look like. As a lefty, I know that the paddle mag releases and ambi slide release will be on any pistol of my choosing.

Maybe I'm OCD or anal retentive, or just plain weird...but if I ever have to reach for a pistol to defend my wife or myself, I don't want any surprises.

You’re correct 9mmPatriot; should have been in reply to Roscoepc who wished that the system would “roast” the perp. Sorry about the mix-up.

Depending on where I'm heading and for how long I have several carry handguns. I do practice with all of them. The downside is I don't Make the time to shoot as often as I should.

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Always Stay Strong!

I don't rotate. Same gun, same sticky, same ammo, same pocket.

My hand knows exactly what it is reaching for and muscle memory takes it from there.

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Music/Sports/Beer fan

I train with everyone of my revolvers from the 2 inchers to the 6's.Revolvers are all I own and all I want to own.As we all know practice is the key whether dry or live fire and I always have a speed strip or speed loader depending on what I'm carrying that day and dont forget that the new york reload is a very viable option and will give you at least 10 and up to twelve ,again depending on the configuration.Stay safe my friends and may God bless the peace makers and peace keepers.

Grim jaws I can tell you the Niagara Co Sheriffs share your opinion of being under armed. At the Lockport Walmart this morning only one entrance was open. Security guard was a deputy. He had his issued side arm but also a rifle on a 1 point sling. Not sure what the rifle was as I didn’t want to be “that guy” staring at him. But it was not an AR. As I left there was a second deputy there as well. I had a NAA 22mag in my pocket. Something is better than nothing.

I have real world experience reloading a revolver in the midst of a gunfight, but that was 1974. I’m now 75 w/back & hip problems so carrying a modern semi auto is not doable. A light J Frame in a pocket holster has been my EDC for many years, but it’s better than nothing.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)